Joiner

I'm a person who likes being unique, and what can be more unique than a 335(334 depending on the overbore) stroker. Everyone says to change to a 350 and talk about how it's cheaper and that 305s are dog motors. I've been putting in the time and research and have found an online article from a magazine posted in 2006 where a team built a 305 to make 380hp.....imagine what a 335 could make. 335 strokers if you do the math end up being more square than 350s, which I read is what most professional racers opt for. 305s can make better gas mileage with around the same acceleration and top speeds (not power ratings) than 350s. Isn't that what's more important, who crossed the line first, not who has more ***** in neutral? It doesn't cost much to build a 305, though everyone talks about how it does, I've looked up parts and what people think about them and it would cost around $2000 for all the parts needed to make at least 400-450 hp out of a 335, 305 blocks are cheaper than dirt almost, no one seems to like them. I plan on this 335 to be my daily driver when I'm through with school and I hope to make a 383 or a 427 for a second gen Trans Am. The 335 just seems like it would weigh less, make decent power for not a lot of money, and they're supposed to get great low end torque, great for getting off the line. Eventually, more cubes and more power isn't great for a car, no point in sitting in the pit still burning rubber while they're on the move. So, if there is anyone out there with my same perspective I would appreciate any help in devising what the best specs would be for the parts I wish to put in this motor. I bought the block for $125 and it definitely has low mileage on it as it doesn't have any trace of a ridge and I know for a fact that it hasn't been machined.

I planned on running EngineQuest performance cylinder heads at 180cc intake runners, 50cc combustion chamber with angled plugs. Valves rated at 2.02" / 1.60" running at $360 a each. Didn't plan on anything more than a 650-700 cfm carburetor yet and don't know which brand I would prefer. Was interested in beehive springs and was wondering if roller rocker arms would be worth getting. Should I go with a 1.5-1.6-or 1.7 rocker ratio? This car is eventually going to be my daily driver so I planned on running a more mild camshaft with lower duration but higher low end torque, does anyone know what duration I should look into, what shape of lobes? what LSA? shorter LSAs are supposed to make for a smoother idle, how much lift? headers? hydraulic lifters or solid, flat tappet or roller? roller are supposed to be good for low rpm as they don't touch the camshaft as fast at the higher rpms but take less friction, what type of manifold should I run? This will be my first performance engine build, the main idea is to build a 335 stroker that's better than most (non pro) 350s who talk so much sh*t on 305s.

The engine will probably be bored out .030, so it will only trully be a 334, If I went with .040 over it would be a 335.5 or something like that. If I went with .035 it would be almost exactly a 335 but the stroker kit I found doesn't provide pistons for that size. The stroker kit is from Powerhouse and only costs $650.

I was planning on running a GM 12 bolt rear with 4.11 posi gears and since it is my daily driver I planned on keeping the 700r4 and installing a kit and a better torque converter, any ideas?

The car itself is a 1985 Pontiac Trans Am, comes with a 305 L69 quadrajet..... don't see why people don't understand when I just say quadrajet that it's a 4bbl, what does quad stand for? The company itself has 2bbl carbs but they arent called quads for a reason. I got the car by trading a 1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera S, nice little 4 cylinder that had no rust and only 48K miles on it, but it didn't make me happy. I just can't stay away from Firebirds.

Thanks for the input, if it's positive or trully informative.
Joiner

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...cks/index.html

Joiner

Pictures of the Trans Am

Joiner

Don't know whose dog, not mine. Could get pictures of the Gutless Ciera if anyone's interested, was an ugly beige-gold.

ljnowell

I'll bite and be the first critic. Well, you may get the block for free, but thats only saving you 50 bucks. For 650 dollars you get a near stock quality rotating assembly that will still need at least 100 probably closet to 150 dollars or more for balancing. You now have an 800 dollar kit. HMMM, sounds like a forged 350 assembly. All this BS talk about square engine architecture is just that. You will not see the benefits of the "square" engine at the RPMs you will be operating your engine at.

I see you plan on heads with 2.02 1.60 valves. Have you read about 305 bores with 2.02 1.60s? The ability to effectively fill the cylinder with bigger valves goes to a 350 also, because of the larger bore. Keep the carb to a 650, 600 would probably be better. With 100% volumetric effeciency it will only take about 580cfm to feed that engine to 6K RPMs. I dont see 100% VE in the future, either.

All in all, if you were to take every single part that bolt onto your 334 and bolt it all on a 350 you would make more power, at a better operating RPM. This isnt opinion its proven fact, like it or not. Being different isnt worth being slower, IMO.

PS. How do you plan to attach the tq arm to your GM 12 bolt?

Joiner

I know some facts, but I don't know everything about cars, mostly about just putting an engine together, it's why I posted. About the bigger valves, could always go smaller, any hints or ideas, it's why I'm here. Yes I could go with a 350, but the whole point is, what's the point in building an engine unless it has a purpose, my whole purpose for this build is to kick most 350s I'll meet's asses and with a motor that people say aren't worth it, and it would probably get more gas mileage than the 350, not too much, but more is better than less...... and I've been looking into introducing hydrogen gas intake, makes for more fuel economy and more power.

Apeiron

Not that much more when they're limited by valve shrouding.

Squareness doesn't mean anything on the street. A designer might opt for it if they were doing a clean-sheet new engine design, otherwise everyone works with what's available.

You get the same acceleration and top speed by making the same power rating, which also means burning the same number of gasoline molecules. Mileage would be comparable between the two.

It doesn't cost much to build a 305, but most people opt to build something much, much better for the same money.

It's going to cost you more than $2000 to get 400 HP out of a 335.

They are, but the block is one of the least expensive components in an engine.

It weighs the same as any other small block, and it makes less power for the same money spent on another engine.

Low-end torque is a function of how an engine is built, not a magic product of its bore and stroke. You could build any engine to make great low-end torque.

That's why the engine is only one part of the whole system. A bad way to build a car is to just throw a big engine in it. A good way is to improve the traction, and then throw a big engine in it.

That's a lot of money for any used block, and especially for a 305, which can usually be had for free.

Use whatever springs the cam manufacturer recommends for whatever cam you decide to get. Stick with 1.5 rockers. Use stainless rollers if you want to spend the money, otherwise roller tips are fine.

Other way around, short LSA makes for worse idle.

Headers are essential for any performance usage.

Hydraulic for street usage below 6500 RPM. Roller if you have a late-model factory-roller block, or if you have an earlier block and want to spend the money on retro-roller lifters.

Any modern dual-plane would be fine.

You don't get that with the tame components you're choosing, but if you did build that you'd end up with something that wouldn't be much fun to drive on the street, anyway.

You don't bore an engine for displacement, you bore it to restore the cylinder walls.

For fun, compare with the cost of the Powerhouse 383 kit.

You don't need a 12 bolt for a mild engine.

Joiner

You hone an engine for damaged cylinder walls, you bore to get a bigger bore and more cubes. I've honed engines before.
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How to get a 383. Bore a 350 .030 over and put in a machined 400 crank or a crank from a kit that already fits.

Apeiron

No, you don't. You hone to establish the correct cylinder wall finish to seat new rings. You bore to repair damaged or worn cylinder walls.

Joiner

Well.... maybe I was taught wrong, I'm not here to argue semantics. I'm here to get help on an engine I want to build. It's not about the money either, the only bill I have to pay right now is a $100 a month tuition fee and I'm making 10 times that a month. The purpose of the build is for a challenge and for the hell of it.

Apeiron

There are lots of people here who will help you build the engine you want, which seems to be something with low end torque for a fun daily driver. The 335 part isn't necessary to that at all.

As for the money, we're just trying to help you enjoy the days where $1000/month seems like a lot of money for as long as possible.

Joiner

Maybe not, but I've already got 2 305s. As for the powerhouse 383 kit, it's at least $1000

Apeiron

Take another look https://shop.enginekits.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=81

It's $469.00, which is $181.00 less than the 335. The difference in cost is greater even than you paid for your overpriced 305 block. You could have bought a 350 block for that much to build a 383, and still saved money.

Joiner

And yes, I've learned that to build a good car you need to have a plan and work from that, any and every car can be great but it's the purpose of the car that defines that and this car's purpose is to be a fun daily driver as you said.

Joiner

The 383 kit I was looking at had a forged crank, but I probably won't need one for this car's purchace, if you can get a 383 kit for that cheap, you could just as easily buy that kit and apply it to the 305 and just buy pistons, at $100 to the total, whoopdee, money isn't the point. I planned on saving the 383 build, or a 427, for a monster weekend warrior I want to make out of a 77-78 Trans Am.
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People assume the power ratings of engines based on specs but there is no definite way of knowing what the engine will produce until it's made. The difference between theoretical horsepower and brake horsepower.

Joiner

How many people who will or have posted on this thread have already built a 335 or known someone who had one, the exact components that were used, and anything else that was done to the motor?....... Probably none, I can't see why people can criticize a motor they haven't built.

AlkyIROC

Want to do something different? Build up a 2.5L Iron duke. They can be made to make over 350 HP.

If you're trying to make power, spending the same money to build up a 305 into a 334 instead of building a 350 or 383 is the wrong way to go at it. The larger the displacement, the easier it is to make power. A high HP small displacement engine isn't impossible to do but it becomes a high maintenance, poor street manners engine. There's nothing wrong with rebuilding a 305 or making a 334 but thinking that will outperform a 350 or 383 and be a daily driver won't happen.

Although there are some racing 305 engines, the owners use the 305 to put them in a specific class, not to go faster.

A 12 bolt is an overkill for such a small HP engine. 4.11 gears will probably be way too deep for the rpm range. 2.02/1.60 valves won't fit inside the 305's small bore.

Quadrajet is the name of GM's 4 barrel Rochester spreadbore carb. The 1 and 2 barrel Rochester carbs have series names.

We criticize a 334 because we know it's still using the small 305 bore and the cost to build one is the same as building a 350 or 383.

ljnowell

So, what is it you want to know exactly? Can you build a powerful 305? Yes. Its not worth it. You need to read, read, and read some more. And after that find a few books about chevy performance engines. Otherwise this will be one of those "learn the hard way" experiences you will look back on and say "Man, I wish I would have listened."

BTW 2000 dollars wont get the bottom end done on this thing probably. You are looking at 800 minimum before that kit is ready to bolt into a block. Plus at least 300 bucks for machine work, if you dont have everything done (which you should, it will probably be 400 or more). Plus you need rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, etc. I'm sure you wont be ordering a crap rebuilders kit, so those are all gonna cost some cash. My guess is you will have 2000 dollars in it before you bolt heads on the engine, it will be different though.

Joiner

How many people out there have even just seen a 335 being used, I read a thread on a different website of a guy who's built them and what his thoughts were on them, he was building a 383 for a different car and was using that car's stock motor for another 335 just for the hell of it.

Apeiron

Good luck finding 335 pistons for $100. The only difference between the 383 kit and the 335 kit is the pistons.

Building an engine is the best way to find out how much power it will make, but experience with what works and doesn't work makes it easy to estimate with a certain amount of accuracy.
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I've seen a few. Each owner, without exception, said they'd never do it again.

Think of it the right way... the reason they're so unpopular is because they're such a bad idea that anyone with the slightest amount of performance engine knowledge immediately dismisses them as such.

Joiner

Hahaha, well maybe I should listen somewhere because experience is the one thing I don't have. Being stubborn does have it's ups and downs, but it just seems like most people hark on the 305 because they never built one or even tried, was always easier to just throw in a 350.
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I want a challenge, I want something different. I've read an article where a team said the same thing and built a 391 out of a 350. But I don't have the type of resources to build things no one has ever really done, but hey, I've got to get going, thanks for the input people.
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What do people think I should build then for a fun daily driver? I'll be looking forward to checking on this thread tomorrow.

ljnowell

I'll be honest with you, it doesnt matter what you build if its your first engine it will be a challenge and you will be happy and proud of it. Its not as simple as "throwing in a 350". The same amount of research, parts selection, and work goes into it. Just less money. You arent any less respected, deserved, or smart for going with the 350. If you want a stroker make a 383. There is some serious gains. To get the power level you first suggested out of a 335 you will have a fairly radical engine. I have built 383s that make over 400hp and have a relatively smooth idle and good street characteristics. Daily drivers that have air conditioning and power brakes. Its a beautiful thing.

AlkyIROC

You're going to get the same criticism if you want to build a 302 to out perform a 350 or 383. There's not impossible to build but unless you need the small engine for a specific use, it's just not worth it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm all for being different. If you have cash to burn and want to do a 335 go for it. Even tho a 383 or 355 could be build for the same price or cheaper, and make more power, its not always about power. Its about being different sometimes

The only other 335 i've seen was a mild build. If i remember right, it was just a stroker 335 with L98 components or at the very least, a mild cam. It ran low 13's. My bolt on L98 was doing low 13's and hit high 12.90's. SO cubes help

but for 400 crank hp, 305-350 is more than fine. 400whp? you'll want a 383

RedHawkLB9

yea do what you want its your ride...but 50cc heads on a 335 is way to small unless your putting in a huge cam(compression will be way to high for pump gas)...go with like 60cc or 58cc..good luck

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

As suggested in the other posts, 2.02 valves are too big. Get some 1.94's. L98 aluminum heads with a mild port job are the best thing going for a mild/medium 305-335 i'd say

paul_huryk

The problem with a 305 stroker is the small bore - good flowing aftermarket heads are meant for the 4" bore of a 350, 383, or 400.

89_RS

If you want to listen to someone, listen to a guy who's been deadset on doing a 335 till today. I made a complete *** out of myself in another thread a few days ago about this and now I've figured out what all those guys were saying.

Can a 305/334 be built to make over 400FWHP? Yes, that has been proven by a couple members on this forum (see link at end of post).

Would a 305/334 at 400FWHP be a fun DD type car? Maybe, but that all depends on the cam you select and how well you have the suspension and other items dialed in.

Can a 305/334 be built to make 400FWHP for $2000? No. Especially if you decide to go for the 334. If you want an idea of what is required for a 400FWHP 305/334, read my parts list that I have on the idea (see link at end of post). According to Desktop Dyno 2003, that list of parts would get me 427FWHP and 408FWTQ for a 335. Same set up on a 383 would be 451FWHP and 470FWTQ.

If you want a fun daily driver; I'd say upgrade the rest of the car first, then rebuild the 305, do a port & polish job on the stock heads, upgrade the cam and valvetrain, upgrade the exhaust, and tune it. Or you could get a 350 or LS engine and do the same to it and have a much better platform for future upgrades. Either way, you'll have a fun car. The reason I recommend the suspension and other upgrades first is that I've read the Tech Articles onsite and several members posts, and they all say that the suspensions mods are the best bang for the buck on these cars.

By now you're probably wondering what changed my mind about the 305/334. I started arguing area under the curve, and as long as a 305/334 is making the same power as its competitors engine at the same rpm, that argument is valid. But once I started to really dig into it and do the math, especially after comparing identical setups (with the only difference being displacement) it became aparent that while my 334 will have a power curve very similar to a 383, the 383 will be making about 20-30hp more than my 334. That right there kills the area under the curve argument. That coupled with the fact that once I've finished modding a 305 into a 334 (according to my parts list) I'll almost be at the very end of the modding potential of a 305, whereas if I do the same to a 350 or LS engine I'll still have plenty of room left for upgrades. The final thing that made me change my mind was seeing 4 6.2L LS engines in the GMPP 2009 Catalog that I really wanted to see in the 2010 Camaro (L99, LS3, LS376/480, LSA) and my want to have a semi future proof engine when I'm done modding my car. An LS engine or 350 has enough aftermarket to make that a reality.

Do I think the 305 is bad, worthless, or not worth modding? No, not at all. My 305 in my 89 Camaro has been going strong for 20+ years now and has been nothing but reliable and I am pretty sure a 400FWHP 334 would be fun for DD with some strip.

Do I think it unwise to build a 334 with the intent of future proofing the car or for allout power? Yes. The fact that you can build a 350/383 for nearly the same price, buy an LS engine for the about the same price, and have a nearly unlimited aftermarket for both is why I think it better to go with a 350/383 or LS over the 305/334.

Have I completely ruled out going the 334 stroker route? No, I don't intend for it to be an all out race motor when done. I just want it to be a fun little motor for my car. But a real detractor to doing it is the lack of aftermarket and modding potential which would make the engine rather bad as far as future proofing is concerned, and I have better options in both fields if I get an LS engine or 350. I graduate college in about 3 years and I expect it to be about ten years before I get to touch the engine due to me modding the rest of the car first. I have plenty of time to figure out what I really want and how much I want to spend.

Hope this helps.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ferrerid=35855
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...troker.xls.txt

ljnowell

I have always said, if you want to modify a 305 bolt on everything you can, providing it will transfer to a 350 later. If you have to touch the shortblock, cut your losses and get a bigger bore.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

That's another way of saying you like to spend more money to be slower.

Of course the critics are going to come in. It's a silly waste of money.

But, it's your money and your car, do what you like.

(And, it's a 334 - the "overbore" has nothing to do with it. Lack of mathematical skills has everything to do with it.)

Apeiron

If you really need to be different, paint the block pink. At least then it'll be something that someone can see. Otherwise, if you tell the average person you have a 335, they'll say "huh", and fail to see or care about the difference between that or any other engine. Tell an educated person it's a 335, and they'll smile and shake their heads sadly at such waste of effort.

1987ZTPI

Build it and have fun with it, if you want to learn, but plan on building another motor in a few yrs if not less. You will always want more power, i have built my lb9 2 times now, always more power .next step is a mild 400sbc and after that bigger. Don't ask other members opinions, your just asking for bashing and useless comments. Build it but you will need $2000 minimum balance it and spend the money on all new internals of quality make. I can spank alot of 350 cars with all the bolt onas and even a cam , but i can transfer alot of my parts over to any other sbc thats why i have built my 305.

1985WS6TA

I do like to see people try new things, like in your case build a 335 stroker out of a 305. I give you props

But the reality of it is, building a 350 or 383 can be done for initially the same money as the 335 and you get twice the motor, and for a daily driver its more ideal for streetability. And I only say this cuz for want you want ( daily driver ) I believe you would be more satisfied.

Example, the motor I'm currently building for my 1985 Trans Am is includes: 355 Tuned Port Injection

Factory roller camshaft block
forged Eagle crank
forged Eagle I-beam rods
Keith Black Hypereutectic flat top 2 valve relief pistons
Edelbrock Aluminum Performer Centerbolt Heads 60cc I-2.02" E-1.60"
Edelbrock TPI intake base and ported runners
Stock Ported Plennum
BBK 58mm Throttle body
30lb Injectors
BBK ceramic headers
GM performance parts LT4 hot cam single pattern In. .525 Ex. .525

Engine Dyno 421 H.P. Flywheel ( not in my car yet )

89_RS

That parts list I put together, minus a few items, can be transfered over to a 350. Thats kinda is why its so expensive. I made sure to have items that would transfer over to a 350 if I ever decided to go that route.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There's nothing new about a 334. Been around for years. Still doesn't make sense.

BTW, it's a 334, not a 335.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

I'm that guy,built one about 3 years ago to satisfy my own curiosity.
I built mine on the cheap,using a cast chinese 383 crankshaft,5.565 stock 400 connecting rods,and stock 305 pistons.It was in a 92 Chevy shortbed 4x4 pickup,with a 5 speed transmission.I tried 3 different cams,TBI,2 different carbs,a Holley and an Edeljunk,and you know what?It wasn't worth it.Sure,it was tourqier than a 305,and it ran ok,but in the end,I tugged it out,put in a 100,000 mile stock TBI 350,and it had more power.
Granted,5.7 rods are superior,but at average power levels,you'd never tell the difference except for at the dyno.
I'm a believer in cubic inches,and even if money is no object,what you propose will be more expensive than a 383,and WILL make less power than an identical 383,no matter what you do.

Build a 383,and swear to anyone who looks under the hood that it's a 335.They won't be able to see the difference.

Joiner

Well...... I know when to quit with an idea. Obviously the 335 is out of the question, I have a guy offering me a complete 350 (minus accessories) for $250. He suggests rebuilding it. Ideas on how I should make that a daily driver? More than anything I'd like to know what cam I should run before I put it in the car, I can put everything else on later.

Apeiron

What heads does it have?

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

hey irockz - how much hp and torque did it put out?

Stekman

Haha. That's like my light blue valve covers....or, as my wife calls them, "sky" blue.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

I never spent money to dyno that turd.I'm going to say an absolute maximum of 280 hp.
Probably not more than 350 ft.lb. of tourque.
It satisfied my curiosity,but otherwise,was a complete waste.

iroc a 86 berli

well that all depends on your goals, a very streetable, 350 i would suggest a mild hyd cam (6500rpm red line), your heads will limit your lift depending on witch ones you run. i belive the vortec heads are limited to .410 valve lift, but the valve guides can be machined down.

if you want a stroker, you cant beat the 383 for the bang for buck. eagle and scat sell pre balanced strocker kits with most all you need to slap toghether a short block. you can clearance the block your self (saves you $100+, just be carefull of the pan rails dont want to hit water. and it will need about 3/16in clearance i think. you will need a 400 balancer and flexplate, because they are external balanced. or just get an internal balanced crank. as for machine work, depending on how good/bad the block is, look at anywhere from 300$ to 1000+$. hot tank, check for cracks and bore+hone is fairly cheap thru my machinest. but when you start balanceing/decking your block, reconditioning rods and what not, the price goes up.

if this is your first build, defenitly pick up this book http://www.amazon.com/Build-Big-Inch.../dp/1884089860 , it is very detailed and has proven combos to eleminate some of the geuss work out of hp/ trque and rpm ranges. excellent book!! good luck grasshoppa!

Hawk92z-TDZ

I wanted to be unique too, but i built a sbc 396 then a 412 and then a 421, made for some fun daily drivers



Friends dont let friends build 305's

DeltaElite121

I know when I yank my 305 out of my daily I'm tempted to just give it away based on how much it drags *****. There's lots of ways to try new things (for yourself) but chances are someone else has already thought about it and done it before. I say you find a nice 350 block and build that to whatever you like, including stroking it out.the SBC has so many good parts for it, and a 350 is easy to get things for, and very cheap at that.. this includes the aftermarket world.

I've said this in other threads, but don't forget the 400 sbc. That's a great engine to build up, too.

IROC315

iTrader: (9)

Yep and they are not as hard to find as people say. I bought one awhile back and intend to buy another one soon. This one has 40k original miles. lol.

DeltaElite121

What'd it come out of, and how much did you pay? I haven't come across anything like that personally. Most of the stuff I've found is either junk, needs sleeved (which I wouldn't do) or it is barely running and needs a complete overhaul... all of which they've wanted too much money for. Been looking for a nice one to drop in though for the sake of having something significantly better than the tired 305 I have, not that it'd make much of a difference if it was or wasn't considering it's crap either way..

IROC315

iTrader: (9)

The first one came out of a 70s truck. Don't think it was origninal but it was running and not smoking. It might need a cleaning up. I am planning to build it up anyhow.

The second one I am not sure what it's in. I find out more today. It's from a friend so I can trust what he says about them. This one is in a car that I can start and drive to test it.

I paid $400 for the first one and will probably pay $400- 500 for this one. Steep yeah, but if neither one is cracked, it's still a good deal considering they are a little scarce. If I didn't have these, I'd be looking at doing a 383.

Reed35

You are right stephen. 2.02/1.60 valves won't fit in a 305 bore. These valves were mostly found in 350 cylinder heads, or any SBC with a 4" bore. 305s usually had 1.84/1.50 valves to fit the 3.75" bore. Also, all 305 heads had 58cc chambers. ( a little knowledge for ya.)

Joiner, I was readin about your planned 334 build. I was going to wish you luck anyway. Now, on to the 350. You can find parts almost anywhere for these. I believe silverados were the last gm vehicle to use Gen 1/1e 350s until 1998. Build it however you want, but do your research first, you could be as radical as a 406 with two 4bbls, or a 355 with three two barrel carbs. TPI or TBI, it's your choice. But if you don't want to go 'that' radical one 4bbl carb will do for most.

Remember, whatever engine you decide to build, be prepared to spend the money. But most of all, have fun and learn, learn, learn. Good building.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Well, it's not true, but at this point it's moot.

Joiner, go ahead and continue your 350 discussion/questions in a new thread if you like, but let's call this one finished.