Drew

iTrader: (58)

This is in response to Tomp... since he asked why I dislike the haynes manual... I figure its good info that should be shared.

lets deal with the Camaro manuals, since I have them all on hand...

Here's a pic with the full range, best to worst left to right... Reviewed in reverse order from the pic...


Next, lets look at the haynes manual... 342 pages including the index (virtually worthless)... From page 294... So we've got 48 pages that covers all the details on MPFI, TPI, TBI, PBR disk brakes, hatch pulldowns, foglights, 1 piece rear mains, roller cams, serpentine belts, rear shoulder belts, airbags, etc etc etc. Of course the manual doesn't even cover most of those items. Also contained are some very difficult to follow wiring diagrams, and black and white pictures of pre-1985 parts and procedures. ~$10

So why is the old chiltons manual better? 397 pages. Its a completely updated book, no supplement here, the manual actually covers 82-92. Diagrams used are pirated directly from the helms manuals, and very few incorrect technical specs. Information is listed for every engine combo, carbs, efi, etc. The only thing not included are wiring diagrams. By the way these disappeared off shelves YEARS ago. They show up on ebay from time to time, and occassionally in a bookstore. But usually if you find a chiltons its the total car care manual. ~$10 5 years ago

Then we get to the Chiltons Total Car Care manuals. 780 pages.
Compiled fairly recently, I started seeing these for sale in about 2000. Charts, wiring diagrams, B&W pics, drawings, etc from helms and other sources. Manual covers everything in the car and presents it in an easy to understand manner. The index and table of contents is excellent. The book is divided into subchapters that cover various subassemblies of the car, so its VERY easy to find the information you need. In addition to being twice as many pages as the current Haynes manual, its also slightly deeper and taller then the Haynes. This book by far is the closest to the helms manual as you'll find in a book store/parts store. ~$15-20

Finally the Helms manual... I'm not even going to try to count the pages, as they're broken into sub catagories, but the book is almost 2 and 1/2" thick, tightly bound. The Haynes is maybe 3/4" thick, the early chiltons is 1", the late chiltons is 1 3/4" thick.
This is the manual that the dealerships use when most people give up on the problem and decide to spend $$$ at the dealer. It has every wiring diagram, every drawing, etc as all the other books since this is where the other books stole their info. It also includes cavity drawings so you can find fuses, relays, etc that are burried under panels, or in the dash. The only downsides of the Helms, are that its HEAVY, not exactly easy to throw in your backseat, its written for an audience with a higher knowledge level, so it can tend to be hard to follow. And since its so large its hard to just flip thru and find what you're after. Price? ~$40 (used) - $75-100 (New).

I've yet to find anything in the late chiltons or the GM shop manual that was so wrong that it posed a problem. If you follow the specs you aren't looking at a safety issue... But with the haynes, if you follow it to the T you're going to overtorque some parts. The haynes should be the last ditch option. If you absolutely can't find or don't have another manual, its a questionable substitute.

TomP

I'll repost what I had in the other thread:
........
Okay Drew, I've -got- to ask: What exactly is so bad about the Haynes manuals?? I find it hard to believe that I've had the entire car apart, and usually use the Haynes manual for general stuff, and the Helms manual for diagnostic/wiring/technical stuff that's way above the Haynes.

Haynes is good for:
General Tuneup Info
Pic-by-pic "how to change your disc/drum brakes"

Removing/installing:
gas tank
transmission
engine
rear axle & suspension (shocks/springs/control arms/panhard rod/etc)
water pump
timing chain & gears
front suspension components (struts/springs/control arms/etc)
fuel injection systems

Removing/rebuilding/installing:
distributor
brake systems (m/c, front caliper, rear caliper, bleeding)

If I haven't had any problems with these sections, what problems are you having? The little $10 Chilton's I've seen (which isn't the Total Care book) barely has any diagrams in it, and it's hard to read. If torque specs are listed, they're always buried- the Haynes book has them at the beginning of every chapter! So for real; where are the flaws in the Haynes book?? Seems like we both agree that the little paperback Chiltons suck; but what's wrong with the Haynes book? And yes, I know as well as you do that the Haynes book or any Chiltons book does not measure up to the GM/Helm book, which I also have.
...........

Now, why exactly is the Haynes garbage, if it does all that? You act like the Haynes (or Chiltons) should REPLACE the GM Book!! Hell no! If someone want stuff like MPFI/TPI/TBI/PBR disk/hatch/etc- all that stuff you listed- the person should go out and buy the GM/Helm book.

(Oh by the way, the Haynes also has pictures taken right from the Helm manual. And by the way #2, the Chilton's I was talking about is that little one, with the yellow Camaro on it. They don't make those anymore? My dad has a few for his cars, and I didn't like 'em at all. I couldn't even find the basic stuff in 'em!)

If I have the choice between bringing the Haynes out to the garage, or bringing the GM/Helm, I'll bring the Haynes. Hell, I actually used the Haynes for my trans swap. Every torque spec I've seen on there is accurate- which ones aren't? (Seriously. I want to make a note of it on my book.)

For real, though, I think you're expecting too much from these "generic parts-store manuals". The Chiltons "with full wiring diagrams" might be better, but you can't say the Haynes is trash because of that. That's like saying a 305 is trash because GM made a 350! It might not be as comprehensive, but how many people on thirdgen.org go as deep into things as you and I do? If someone's going to dive that deep into an engine as to look for data on a roller cam, then I'd point 'em to the GM one.

And that's why I like the Haynes. It lays out the no-nonsense procedures for doing big jobs, like the stuff I mentioned above. You don't have to flip thru pages and pages of the GM book, and ya know what, I don't even think the '86 GM book tells you how to drop a trans. I never looked. I should go home & check it out. And next time I'm at Pep Boys I'll go hunt down the "new" green book, and see what it's like.

But that's just my 12 cents!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

TomP,

I could sit down and rip the Haynes manual a new *******, but why should I spend the next three hours reading every page and correcting every mistake? My time is valuable to me, and for $5 more than the haynes manual, anyone that wants the correct information and one hell of a manual can buy a total car care manual, and they'll have them.

For you and your car the Haynes might be acceptable, but for my 91's there are more cluster****s then I care to encounter when I'm working on a problem. I'd rather spend my time fixing the problem then doublechecking every fact in the haynes manual to make sure I'm not screwing up my car.

I already know how to rebuild rear drum brakes, and I know how to change brake pads without using a manual, so maybe the Haynes is just too basic for me. There is no reason to buy a Haynes manual if there are other options available.

If I get a chance I'll quickly browse thru the haynes and I'll post a few quick obviously incorrect items listed.

Keith5

I like the Haynes manuals myself, I've done all of my own work(almost) since I got those. It helped us put an engine in my friends car too. There are problems with them, but come on, they aren't that bad.

TomP

Right. So do I. But for someone new to cars, the 82-92 Haynes manual is great for that.

Joe_L

Just to comment on the Haynes manual drew, where did you get yours a yard sale?

Mine has no suplement its all one complete manual.
I will not say Haynes are the best. But there a great place to start. How much you paying for your haynes. I payed 15 with tax canadian. I could never get the complete car care for that? Unless it was the $10 special Tom was talking about which is crap.

Everyone to there own I guess.

TomP

I was wondering if they've revamped the Haynes by now! My Haynes, bought in '94, has the supplement section. The book was originally written for the 82-84 F-bodies, and Haynes added a supplemental chapter (I think #13), that covers the 85-92 set. That's where the fuel injection info is, and the "generic" diagnostic code section for the newer computers, etc. I wonder what a newer Haynes looks like.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Both my thirdgen haynes manuals are only 3-4 years old... They're identical to the ones I see on shelves around town. They were all that was available when I bought my formula.

The Chiltons Total Car Care manuals are softcover manuals. They aren't expensive, they aren't really that hard to find (harder to find then haynes), they contain everything the older Chiltons, and the Haynes manauls contain, and more.

There really is no comparison guys. If you'd rather save $5 and be content not knowing there are better manuals available, then thats fine, but you're arguing with me that the haynes manual is a good manual when you haven't even checked out the competition.

The old small Chiltons is out of print, the total car care manuals replace them.

Hey check this out...

www.Amazon.com

Chiltons Total Car Care $16.77
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...893286-9656037

Haynes 82-92 Camaro $13.27 (same id# as the one I have, different cover)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...893286-9656037


So if you want to save $3.50 and don't mind an inferior product, then go ahead and buy the haynes.


How is this for a good reason why the Haynes sucks... it doesn't even aknowledge the existence of the RS. All the TPI information (3 pages worth) is written and compiled based on a Corvette (different then a thirdgen), etc... I'd list more but I've gotta take a dog to the vet.

CanadianCamaro

I own and use both manuals, the haynes being my first & primary manual. I never had a problem with the manual, I even disassembled my MPFi using the supplement, but it has confused me a few times with the wording of directions, re-reading it usually helped.

I got the Chiltons (total car care) after I did the engine swap primarily for the wiring and vacuum diagrams. It took a while to find the chiltons up here, almost no one carries it.... Finally found it at Walmart for $16 with tax.

I went to the local GM dealer to buy the Helms manual but they wouldn't order it for me cause it was over $100!?! I guess they didn't think I needed it or something, I will get it eventually though.

Keith5

I've used that book to take apart and put back together TBI, and TPI systems, I haven't got to use it on this v6 yet, but I know there is a whole freakin chapter on the v6, the only problem with that book that I see is that sometimes they get a little vauge about things. They do that on my cavalier too, but I've always got the job done with it.

CaliCamaroRS

The Haynes is decent for someone just getting started in the world of cars.......but that's all it's good for.

The GM manuals blow everything out of the water. It has EVERYTHING....exploded views, GM procedures, diagnostic charts.

I lucked out too. By some cosmic coincedence, my work just happened to have TWO 1990 Camaro manuals...so i made one of them mine.

Keith5

I've got the Haynes with the Blue RS on it. One thing that those manuals wimp out on is the transmissions, they don't tell how to rebuild them.

TomP

Keith, Haynes does make a book on the transmissions! It's called "GM Transmission Overhaul, for 200-4R, 350, 400, 700r4"- it's great! It's got a full photo-by-photo rebuild, lists the tools you should buy (and the ones you don't have to buy), and even lists the differences between years (example- year X put this in, year Y make sure to do this instead). It's even got a chapter on how an automatic works! It's a great supplement to the GM manual and the ATSG manual.

Belker

I have the Haynes & the Chiltons (always available on e-bay - Cheap). I can say that the index in the Chiltons is COMPLETELY worthless. Also, the book would have been SOOOO much better if they had just re-written it instead of adding the Chapter 13 supplement. The Chiltons has practically no photos and I'd appreciate alot more diagrams. In general, I think both are poor examples of what could be done. (I haven't seen the Helms or total car care.) HOWEVER, either is way better than not having a manual at all.

TomP

You'll love the http://www.helminc.com book... they're the publishers for GM's Service Manuals. One problem- it's the service manual, so it won't give nice photo shots of how to change brake pads, or walk you through a tuneup. You need to have somewhat of an idea of what you're doing / need to do in order to use the GM/Helm book to it's potential. I paid $60 for mine (and an additional $10 for an owners manual) back in '94, and it was SO worth it.