CaliCamaroRS

Yep, in 2 places right under the steering gear box. Apparently it's a common occurance. My co-worker has seen it a few times before on thirdgens. Might be worth your time to at least examine your frame for cracks.....never know what you'll find.

Fortunately, I'm gonna get it welded tomorrow for FREE. WOOHOO.

KED85

Alright now explain this.....
When I look at my 1967 & 1968 Camaro, I "see" a subframe. I can remove it by "loosening" 6 bolts, dropping it.
With these 3rd F cars, What am I looking for?
I don't see any subframe, yet, it's there, right?
Maybe this accounts for my steering looseness and a "twick" sound I hear.

WaynesRS

My butt has a crack in it ! Should I weld that up ?

CaliCamaroRS

Karl,

Imagine a full frame car with the middle cut out and replaced with some sheet metal. That's essentially the way the thirdgen unibody is constructed.

There's two frame rails in front....two in the back......but nothing in the middle. You can't remove these subframes because it's a UNIbody. The 67/68 are full frame cars with a removable carridge or subframe up front.

I was checking my car because it wasn't feeling stable on the freeway.....hopefully this cures my prob.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

steering probs, yet alignment good? check control arm bushings.

Joe_L

Uni Body = anti frame rails, the main support of the car comes
from the rockerpanesl and desgin of the floor along with subframes front and rear.
Can we not replace out front frames? I am sure TomP
said he has an 84 front frame under his 86. I never look
to see if I could remove it or not, I am sure it would not be fun,
but my father changed the front sub frame in an 89celebrity it
was 6 hours of pure fun he said...

KED85

HI Dan.
Incorrect on the First Gen F bodies (F1).
It is a unibody design, with bolted sub frame assemblies. 6 bolts & you drop the front subframe, intact. I'm hoping to remove the fenders with my mission of 1967 & 1968 front subframe rebuilds.
Sounds just like the X-Bodied cars (Sunfires, Cavaliers, etc).

The 3rd gen (F3) front subframe is welded to the unibody?

I know the rear axle assembly is bolted onto a welded rear subframe rail assembly, as is the F1 design.
I guess I gotta really look under my car. I know of a Z-28 in a yard, I'll go visit today. Make a deal on the original shocks from that 1990 Z-28. Hey, those are only 12 years old, my originals are 17!

Joe_L

Come on Ked, for the price and effort of putting in the old ones, you might as well install the new Shocks.

TomP

Like everyone said we've got the two subframes, front & rear... "subframe connectors" tie the two subframes together.

I'm not sure if our front subframes can be bolted in/bolted off; the body shop did welding for my car. The front crossmember (don't they call that a "k-member"??) can come off tho.

Let us know how the welding goes, Dan! That's what the "wonderbar" was supposed to cure. I expect to see a crack under there when I put that quick-ratio box in this summer. I don't hear any funny noises when turning, but I'm sure some crack has started.

KED85

IF it was a regular Camaro, no way I'd put out the effort.
The used factory ones? From a 1990 Z-28? That don't leak?
Don't knock them.
I only wish they were the Factory Bilsteins!
Used shocks are a real surprise!
I've picked up used shocks for my 1974 Corvette.
I knew to do so.
They are KONI'S, 5 way oil dampened adjustable. I installed new poly bushings and set them according to Koni engineer suggestions.
Those Konis go for about $400.
I paid $16 for the shocks ($4 each) + $15 for the poly bushings and $3 for the Koni Red spray paint & Free Koni stickers.
I truly don't like KYB's (too harsh I have them on my 1985 S-10 Blazer) and refuse to use Monroe (wimpy). I hope to get these Z-28 shocks for free.
A shock is worn when it leaks. Until then, it's ok. The PERFORMANCE from a shock, you get for which the chassis/vehicle was designed.
The Z-28 was designed for/with the 1980s IROC series. Thus these used Z-28 shocks are just like my F41/Y99 Firebird. I really enjoy the factory ride of my Firebird. My factory sway bars are larger than a 1990 Z-28, too. My sway bars are held in by factory installed poly bushings, too.
I was very pleased when I noticed these details. I had wondered why my Firebird handled so pleasantly and controlled. Remember, I was coming from a fresh suspension rebuilt 1974 Corvette that I did. I redesigned my 1974 Corvette suspension to perform just as my Dad's old 1974 had with the factory FE-7 suspension option I ordered on that car. I ALWAYS loved cars that hugged curves, just like some jeans, do, on cute girls butts!

I Cant Drive 55

I know alot of stock cars on asphalt circle track racing use the f-body front subframe ,where the class doesnt allow tubular frames.
A friend of mine runs in the NASCAR Exide Series which does not permit tubular frames. He has a chevy lumina wih the f-body front suspension frame rails and all.
So I'm sure the can be replaced ,but they have to be welded in.

CaliCamaroRS

Well, it got it welded. There was a brace in the EXACT spot where the cracks were......and the brace was there to prevent cracking.
When I went to remove the brace, it was loose. Looks like that's why it cracked.....ah well.

KED85

Dan, It's a Triangle brace at teh steering box?
Did you car also have the "same" item, on the passenger side, idler arm?
I saw these on this 1990 Z-28 I want parts from.

CaliCamaroRS

Yeah, that's the brace. One on each side. Earlier thirdgens didn't have them. I dunno if your Bird has holes to mount it.....

KED85

More things to get from that Z-28.
I want the steering box for my 1967 Camaro.
I'll take the Z-28 steering linkage for my 1985 Firebird as spare. Seems to have no wear.
I wonder if my 1985 does have those triangle bars. Is this the WONDERBAR thing?

CaliCamaroRS

Nah, the wonderbar is different.

KED85

Which is worth the effort to grab then install.
A wonderbar (never saw one yet) or these two triangle things?

TomP

Probably grab both. My car has those triangle supports underneath; and I thought my '84 parts Firebird had them too. Search the suspension board for "wonderbar", you'll find a ton of pictures and messages. In fact, search in this V6 forum, and you'll find out why I didn't do one.

KED85

Hey Tom, I recall it had to do with lower radiator hose placement and the wonderbar. Correct?
What type of car does that wonderbar item come on. This '90 Z-28 doesn't have it. It does have the power steering cooler lines, tho. That Z-28 box is being installed into my 1967 Camaro.

Camaro_hunter_d

I am still debating on installing the wonderbar that ThirdGenParts.com sent me when I ordered the Z Sway bars. My Rad hose is not in the way so I guess I'll do it when ever I get time. I keep feeling the front end move a little in hard turns... Quess that'll fix that...

KED85

HEY DAN,
Could you view the damage to the steering box area from
Floor jack lifting car up
View damaged area from top down
OR
Drive up car ramps.
I do not know if I have bad/worn steering linkage or that crack.
Need away to find out, without removal of the steering box.
MANY THANKS!

CaliCamaroRS

Karl, I had my car on a lift when i saw 2 distinct cracks. They couldn't be seen from the top.

KED85

Dan
Exactly where were these cracks, please?
I looked last night
From inner fender/wheel to the bolts holding the steering box to frame.
Nothing
I looked below & up (car on ground), nothing.
I discovered I do have those triangle things on my front end (as I saw on that 90 Z-28 I'm gonna get stuff from).
Were the cracks at the bolt holes?
THANKS
Hope you're enjoying your time at work.
Are these steering boxes really held on only by two bolts?
My old rides it hads 3 bolts holding the steering box

CaliCamaroRS

The cracks were on the bottom side of the subframe, just rear of the gearbox but before the engine crossmember. Just give it a close inspection....you probably don't have any cracks anyway.

KED85

:hail:
Thanks Dan.
I believe you are correct.
NOW I can concentrate on replacing the linkage.
I looked at this 90 Z-28 in the air.
Our cars have engine "K" members like Chryslers, I believe.

Alright, one dumb last question.
Why may yours have cracked?
I know you take care of your ride.

CaliCamaroRS

Why did it crack? Well, the triangle brace on that side was as loose as a $5 *****. The bolts were BARELY holding it on.....dunno how it loosened up.

My co-worker who has seen other cracked thirdgens said the ones he saw had NO triangle brace. One car was an 85 Z28.....but i forget the other ones.

KED85

All right, I'll bite.
NOW, I've got those triangle braces.
And, now, how can I install a "wonder bar" IF I already have those braces?
OR SHOULD I?
This 90 Z-28 did not have this "wonderbar", either.
Have yet to find one.

TomP

Check out http://www.sethirdgen.org - GMTech wrote up an article with pictures on installing the Wonderbar. The Z's had the WS6 suspension, right? I thought the Wonderbar was part of WS6. Maybe it was removed by a previous owner?

And yah, my lower rad hose was in the way.

[edit] Oh Damn, I just thought of something... maybe I should get my *** to a junkyard and get the later model V6 radiator, eh? Hell, maybe I can find a V8 one in good shape. It'd be a shame to lose my current radiator, but maybe it's worth it.