Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Haha, gonna try and get TwinTurboRoc (Dave) to run me with his 305 turbo Iroc before the year comes to an end, should be a good time for sure. Definitely want to see some videos of yours pulling whatever you come across on the street...

I'd rather have an 90's LT5 w/T88...

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I have a GoPro you could use if you wanted.
Nah, I've worked on enough Skylines to know I do not want one. Lol.
There was a video on YouTube of a LT5 spinning to something like 9500 RPM. I'd love that.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Great job man. Enjoy the car. Chances are you won't see another turbo thirdgen v6 in person.... unless it's one you build.

project89

iTrader: (1)

its hard to pick up a dead cyl with a turbo as the individual ex pulses arent like they would be on an na or supercharged/nitrous engine

its a lil easier if the o2 is pre turbine but u risk false readings and burning out the sensor there

willexoIX

Oh I am enjoying every second lol.

Guess I will have to convince some of the central FL v6s to go turbo

willexoIX

I know exactly what you mean. I knew it was off because of how rough it ran but it still had power. Once I saw the 1 clean plug thats when I figured it out.

Now its so smooth and quiet, you cant even tell its not stock until you hear the turbo. And you can hear the turbo diesel sound when cruising, its awesome The exhaust is surprisingly quiet till I get on it then it just sounds mean.

willexoIX

Hell yea I will take you up on that offer. What mount do you have for it?

Hell I still want an r34. Have you worked on the r35? I would love one of those.

willexoIX

So whats the "Danger Will Robinson" air temp? I know 134 is close to borderline, but what temp do I absolutely not exceed even running 11 AFR in boost? I think Dave said around 150? General consensus agreed?

willexoIX

High-tech cardboard prototype...

I am going to angle the sides a little more out on the steel design.
Function over form. There will be two fins inside to distribute airflow across the whole IC instead of just the back.

willexoIX

Here is where I'm at for tonight



Tomorrow I will cut the top piece, and put the bend in the back of it. Clean up both sides to match while they are clamped together. Tac it together and work out the fitment on the hood. Once it will sit flush with the hood, I will slowly weld the scoop together, letting it cool so it doesn't warp. Then figure out where the studs will go to attach it to the expanded metal grille.

Once thats all taken care of I will make up a couple quick fins to get welded into the scoop. Once I am satisfied, I will clean it up and powdercoat it black.

Just wish I had more than an air cutoff wheel and air saw, lol. At least I have the bench grinder.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea stay below 150 max. Watch for knock. But try to get iat lower...

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Yes. My buddy has one of the 2 RHD R35s in the US. The R35 is a amazing piece of machinery.

willexoIX

Got it. Only way I can tell is to pull plugs. I am going to leave the SA table the way it is, cause this car pulls like a freight train. And its smooth as hell too. I will wait to modify the SA till I get a knock sensor hooked up.

I think the scoop will help keep the temps in check. Dont think it will pull temps down being as small as it is, but should help keep them stable at least.

willexoIX

That it is. Have you seen the Alpha Omega GTR? Sickness. They are pushing the hell out of that car.

Worlds first 7 second GTR35. Completely streetable. Link is the history and future of the Alpha Omega GTR.

willexoIX

Here is the target AFR table I made for VEAL. No higher than 14.7 to start. I think the targets are good up to 168kpa(9.86psi). I will probably adjust that top row down to 180kpa on all the maps.

willexoIX

Progress. Got the studs tacked on and tweaking the fitment. Going to cut the lip off of the front.

Far from done at this point, but coming along nonetheless.

willexoIX

Ahh, pictures.

willexoIX

It ain't pretty, but it will serve its purpose. Now its time to clean it up and powdercoat it. Then I need to find some "U" shaped small molding for the very bottom edge. After that its drive it and see how it does.

I have a baseline, and I know having the fins in the scoop will run cooler than without.

willexoIX

Top cleaned up.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

This is the exact reason why long ago I suggested to not go top mount.

You may also find that reversing the scoop might work better, I know it seems counter intuitive, but by trying to force air into the same area where the air passing through the rad is occupying, it could cause the air flow to be stagnant, which may already be happening without a scoop. But reversing the scoop could help or cause a flow across the fins to happen. If you made the scoop with a symmetrical bolt pattern it would be easy enough to test.

willexoIX

It was a cost thing and I already had the intercooler. Plus with the little bit of charge piping I do have, the punch from the boost hits like a tsunami, and just rolls on like a train. It pulls ridiculously hard.

I will entertain that test. Thanks for the idea of testing it backwards. I had read a couple articles that suggested it as well.

The scoop is all setup to be powdercoated tomorrow. So just need to hunt down small stripping for the bottom of the scoop and its good to go.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i wish u were local , id give u my brand new cowl hood that got damaged in shipping just so u wouldnt put that scoop on
dont get me wrong i understand about working with what ya have , but that thing ust dont look right on the car

project89

iTrader: (1)

instead of using that as a scoop u might be better off leaving the opening flush , and then mounting 2 of these singles or the double in the front bumper
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAKE-DUCT-HOSE-FLANGE-3-COOLERS-RACING-COLEMAN-WILWOOD-TILTON-IMCA-NACA-SCCA-/131028308077?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item1e81e5506d&vxp=mtr
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAKE-DUCT-DUAL-INLET-HOSE-FLANGE-3-COOLERS-COLEMAN-WILWOOD-TILTON-IMCA-NACA-/131114357345?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item1e87065261&vxp=mtr
then using the scoop to turn it into a pan under the intercooler , and connecting hoses fromt he duct flanges to the pan below the intercooler , at speed u pull and force air from the bumper inlets up threw the intercooler and out the top of the hood

Fallen2603

Or mount one of these to the underside of the intercooler to pull air through.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-19129

willexoIX

Already have one mounted there, its wired with a relay through a switch for idle cooling. Cause it doesn't do much at all under boost.

Dave, I don't want all that under the hood too. The scoop just needs to be powdercoated and its done. It will look better when its black. Besides, as long as it functions, I don't really care about the form. I built it myself; I didn't go buy some rice scoop from autozone, thats what makes it worth it to me

Built not bought.

willexoIX

Well, here it is on the car and fresh out of powdercoat. I must say It works great being a small IC. Put it this way, it slowed the rate of rise down dramatically. It hit 138 air temp before, then I had to get out of it to bring the temp down. Now once it hit 80mph with the scoop, the intake temp stopped at 128 in the middle of the pull and started dropping.

Cruising on the street is great, the only time I used the fan was when I was stopped. I am even going to improve more on the design, by continuing those 2 fins below the expanded metal and almost flush with the IC. It is a cloudy day in FL today, so I didn't get the real hot testing temps I wanted. But put it this way, Ambient temp is right around 85, cruising at 35-40mph intake temps are 70-72.

On a hot day that number will more likely be 75-85 degrees, compared to 93-100 degrees. All cruising, Its f*&$#ng HOT out here most of the time.

It performed fantastic. 35-40mph I have better temps at part throttle. At 70-80mph+ it pulls the air temp down in boost. Going into boost the temp no longer skyrockets, its more of a gradual rise then drop. It ran so well, I completely forgot to look for trim for the bottom of the scoop, lol.

willexoIX

So I was right, 95 degrees out the other day with a 105 heat index in full sun the intake temp after the intercooler ran at 76 degrees while cruising. Anything over 25mph drops the temp down and it stays down. Using it in concert with the fan while I am stopped and it works great.

Currently I have a thread over in the trans section because topping off the transmission with half a quart of fluid to bring it to full, changed the way the car shifted? Still trying to figure that one out. TV was set properly and it was running fine, shifting right and no slipping whatsoever. Added the fluid and now the shift points are really high under part throttle and its slipping under high load.

Here is a zip with the latest datalog and tune. AE and such is turned completely off while the VE table is worked on.

The bitch of it is, its harder to start now than it was when the damn car was running on 5 cylinders, but that's to be expected from tweaking the settings to get it to start reliably on 5 cylinders, lol.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

My trans is silly like that too. It just does whatever. I want a manual.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Your sure that the trans was hot when you topped it off? the ole 700r is funky when it comes to line pressure. Its a sensitive trans.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

This is the truth. 700R will complain about everything.

willexoIX

Yup. After doing a few flawless pulls with my dad, when I got back to the house was when I checked the fluid. I added the fluid while running as well.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I'm confused as to how you're breaking the laws of physics...

You can't cool something more than the temperature of the cooling medium. Either your transfer function for your intake temps is off, or it wasn't as hot as you believe.

The intake temps will not be colder than the air passing through the intercooler fins. Another factor is that the air coming into the engine via the air filter, turbo and piping is the same air that would be passing through the fins for cooling... Something is not adding up. If that worked then people would run intercoolers on N/A vehicles.

willexoIX

Look at the log. I am just relaying what I see. Multiple weather stations reported 90-95 degrees in my area. Before starting the coolant temp and air temp sensors normally read ambient. High humidity will also cool the air more than ambient.

it cant be the sensors because Megasquirt is calibrated for the GM sensors and I never had a problem with them.

Don't know what more to say on it...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

All I'm saying is that what you're reporting is physically impossible, regardless of humidity.

The closest I have ever seen to ambient in any car is within 1 to 2 degrees (above), and that's in my car, with an EXTREMELY efficient intercooler mounted in a somewhat ideal location.

Get a thermometer to carry with you in the car, that way you can know for sure what the ambient temp is where you are, though leaving it in the car all closed up can cause the temp to be artificially high.

I would check the calibration of the sensor, if it's indeed reporting 20* colder than ambient temps.

I don't use Megasquirt, so I don't have a way to look at the log.

With the intercooler you are using and the placement I wouldn't be surprised if the temps were actually in the 110 to 120* degree range while cruising on a 95*+ day.

I wonder if the range is inverted. Many GM applications use an inverted table for MAT look-up tables.

project89

iTrader: (1)

ill take a look at the log and see whats up.the ms comes setup for the gm sensors so it should be right but the datalog should show if something is wrong

six u should be able to open the ms logs in exel or whatever other datalog software u use. i open up fasteddies logs in megalogviewer all the time,

the log files between the 2 ecm's are in the same format

project89

iTrader: (1)

ambient air temp was between 72-74* , nothing wrong with the temp sensor

engine off coolant temp of 80*, mat reading 72* , soon as the engine starts mat temp drops to 71* while the car is sitting still and cold coolant

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That makes more sense.

And I would need an ADX file for the MS to open it in my datalogging software, which I haven't seen.

I hate scrolling through excel datalog files, even my own...

project89

iTrader: (1)

try megaologviewer out it works with all the gm stuff and a bunch of aftermarket stuff , some of the nicest log viewing stuff ive used

willexoIX

Down here ambient in the shade is normally 10-15 degrees cooler than in the sunlight. I have a thermometer i will mount outside the car. But there was no way ambient was under 80 in full sun. I did an ac compressor on a cavalier that day and it was downright oppressive outside. Low 70s is comfortable down here but we only get those temps at night until december.

I don't know how that could possibly violate the laws of physics but its all in the logs. Someone was selling rearview mirrors with the temp readout on the classified boards, I will see if I can find something similar for my car.

I am also eventually putting another AIT sensor right after the air filter so I can log pre and post turbine temps as well.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It would break the laws of physics because a medium can not be cooled lower than the temperature of the cooling medium. It just can not happen.

If the actual air temp was indeed 95* and the MAT/IAT is showing 72* at start up, the calibration is off.

There's a difference between ambient air temp, and direct sun light temp, don't get the two confused. The air temp in shade would be more indicative of actual ambient air temp. With direct sunlight on anything the temperature of that item will be warmer than the air temp around it. I find most thermometers are in direct sunlight which is not an accurate way to measure ambient air temp.

willexoIX

Thats not what I meant, I know the law that it violates, I was referring to the values in the log. I also know about the thermometer reading higher in the direct sunlight. We have one on the porch in full sun and one in the shade.

In all honesty, the Ideal Gas Law is also violated "per se" in certain curves in the Megasquirt tables. The IAT correction curve for example, in some vehicles, the only way it will work is if it doesn't follow the Ideal Gas Law.

Same way we have been bending the Laws of Physics for decades.

How do you explain the fact that nothing in this Universe can exceed the speed of light? Yet neutrinos have been proven to move much faster then the speed of light?

There is much we do not understand in this Universe, and one simple change in our understanding of Physics, and the Laws of Physics breaks down as we know it.

Not arguing with you as I know it should not be possible, But I will know more once I get another thermometer and get a log.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I'm trying to decide where to start...

Well lets start with

No one has bent or broken any laws of physics in any decade let alone multiple decades. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand that there are are other laws of physics that they may not be familiar with that are still fully intact.

Lets go to this one:

That is not what you said or was being discussed previously. If that's what you meant then say it explicitly, so that other people know what you are thinking, we are not mind readers. Your reply would indicate that you were trying to imply that the intercooler was cooling the incoming air by more than 20* cooler than the ambient air, like a previous reply of yours was suggesting:

Later you reply with it all being there in the log, which I don't have a way to look at, as I have already said, and to which you still insisted that it was happening:

And the part about humidity allowing something to be cooled more than ambient is complete BS, that would mean the humidity would actually cause the ambient air to be cooler, which would then still be ambient temperature...

If a different cooling medium is used that can stay cooler than ambient longer is used, such as water or ice, as in a water to air intercooler, then intake temps can be below ambient, but only up until the time the water (or ice) heats up to ambient temperature, at which point the coldest that it can cool to is still ambient temperature. This is why water to air ICs are not very popular with most street vehicles, the complication does not add to ability for the intake charge to be cooled. There are some vehicle that it's easier to use a water to air IC in, such as what some Fiero owners have done, or Ford in the Lightning, placing the water to air IC directly under the supercharger.

moving on...

Did you not say back near the beginning of this thread that you were an electronics engineer, or was it electrical engineer? Either way, and I apologize in advance if that wasn't you, but as anyone who works with electronics knows that while the main formulas we use are based on ideal theories and parts, any electrical part is FAR from ideal, and is why we use models that are based on approximate formulas to get a device working. Because of this no formula that is based on ideal parameters will be 100% applicable to the real world, this includes ideal gas law, when it is trying to run a non-ideal engine (which is a whole 'nother realm of non-ideal) using non-ideal electronics.

Because of these non-ideal parts, real formulas and tables need to be made for the application, that is usually based mostly on ideal gas law, or some approximation of. Sometimes these formulas are fudged a bit to make the device work, other times a completely new formula or table is made for that specific device depending on how the engineer and programmer wanted to it to function. In many devices a simplified formula can be used for most situations, especially where consumer electronics are concerned. where precise measurement, metering or functionality is not needed. Using these simplified means, makes it easier to produce and troubleshoot if need be. A MegaSquirt DEFINITELY falls into the category of not needing to use an ideal formula. So if you're basing your "breaking the laws of physics" argument on a line or two from the code of a piece of consumer electronics, I suggest you step up your game, and actually find out why the formula has been modified.


You should really look up things before posting about them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-...utrino_anomaly

http://www.nature.com/news/neutrinos...-light-1.10249

Then there was this:

While I do agree that there is a lot we still do not know about, every time a claim has been made that "shatters our understanding of the laws of physics" it turns out again to be that one of the other laws has been ignored that covers these very "shattering" results. This goes back to where this reply started.

willexoIX

Well I said bend not break, and the "per se" in the Ideal gas law comment was also meant to be interpreted as bend. Though you are right that in non-ideal conditions, the "ideal" curve probably wouldn't be followed anyway.

EDIT- you were right about the neutrinos, I have no idea where I read about it but after reading the story it was infact the same story, I retract that statement.

Yes there are laws that we have not discovered yet, and yes it was me who is an electronics engineer. Have yet to find a job doing anything having to do with engineering so my mind is dusty in that respect.

willexoIX

Traction, lol. Almost a 1 inch drop haha

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Been there, done that lol.


I miss my back seats.

willexoIX

Trans is back to normal without touching anything. Shift points are back to normal, no slipping, and 4th gear comes in at 44mph instead of 55+ like before.

Im thinking the 3 gear burnout in the rain cleared a clog.

I will hopefully have a video up later today of driving it around. Hehe, it doesn't wheel hop with the turbo, man what an awesome burnout. Even did one on dry pavement today.

The car wants to move as the turbo starts to spool up while on the brakes. Once I let off the brakes and nail the throttle all hell breaks loose on the rear tire, lol.

I'll work on getting a teaser burnout vid for everyone, right now I could cook a thick a** steak on the hood over the turbo, but I was just driving it around without turning it off for over an hour and it did great just driving around. The initial fuel table is probably about 80-85% tuned and its getting pretty good gas mileage even when getting on it now and then.

To me I am seeing roughly 300 miles on slightly less than a full tank, and thats on an intial tune, not the final tune. This is not final or definite, its a rough guesstimation.

I will have a proper mileage number when the fuel table is finished.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

****, I'm lucky to see 200 miles out of my tank. Its almost worth putting a turbo on the car for the extra 100 miles.

willexoIX

I have heard both arguments, the turbo lowers mileage, the turbo adds mileage, blah blah blah.

I agree with both at the same time, lol. And I will explain why(this is my opinion and not fact).

Yes the turbo is a restriction to the exhaust, yes if you dog on it the whole tank you will have much less mileage.

But, what I have experienced is better pickup out of boost, the compressor wheel is aiding in the intake of air to the motor before boost is made.

When I drive around like normal and the motor is under a vacuum, it will still pick up speed much better than when it was N/A under part throttle.

Its a double edged sword. You can get awesome mileage with a turbo, at the sacrifice of "max" power. You can get awesome power with a turbo with the sacrifice of fuel mileage.

See what I mean? I am going for the midpoint between the two. The number one thing that helps me attain better mileage is having the ability to tune the computer. I can tune it to go fast, I can tune it to get great mileage, or I can tune it to blow up, lol.

Its a delicate situation when you are just learning tuning, but once you get past the learning curve, you can learn things quickly. I had never tuned a car before, I had never touched a turbo before, and look at how far this build has progressed. Yes I have the mindset and underlying knowledge to get things done but its always a learning experience.

Enough of my babble, its pouring out now so no videos yet, but I did mop the road with a ***** 90s integra with a carbon fiber hood and trunk, coffee can muffler and supra wing. It didnt have a turbo cause he never stood a chance, lol. The look on his face was priceless

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Its all about the tune. Turbos are great for mileage and power.

I busted a GSR Teggy in my old AMG once. Dude had no clue what hit him.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Got that right. Its all about the tune to a certain point.

I get about what a stock V6 would get but that until I go WOT then its just stupid how much gas compared to stock that thing burns in a few passes at the track. 80% duty cycle on 48lbs injectors. But for most driving, it really gets good mpg considering.

Im ready to see some vids man, im glad you having a blast with the 6 shooter. You think dusting a import is fun wait till you get it dialed in a start to eat up some V8s. Thats always a fun time!