willexoIX

Yea thats why I figured id leave autotune alone. I know things changed when I installed the turbo I just want to make sure that the changes I see in the logs and the differences while running are because of installing the turbo. That way I know im getting a good grasp of things and I know Im going in the right direction.

I know AE is going to need to be tweaked, but it seems alright for now, it doesnt stumble when I rev the car. The VE table definately needs work, but like I said, I can really only work on the idle until I drive it and put it under load. First Ill work on the non-boost parts of the map driving normally. Then Ill work on the WOT and boost parts of the map.

Ill be posting my logs on here and the Msextra forums.

willexoIX

This mother f****** c********** oil return keeps leaking around the gasket! New gasket, copper seal, doesnt matter what I do. It just keeps on leaking. Checked the flanges with a straightedge none are warped.

I just bent the ears out on the flange and this time im using high temp rtv in a thin layer, if this doesnt work I give up. Also how is a non pressurized line leaking? It leaks at idle, and no crankcase pressure whatsoever.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Will, are you running an oil restrictor in the oil supply line fitting just before the turbo? Also, where are you running/leading the oil return line? It sounds like it may very well be backing up and forcing it's way out of the flange...

willexoIX

No oil restrictor. 3/16th barb fitting though on the feed. The oil return line is run to the passengerside front of the oil pan, about an inch or so above where fasteddies is mounted, just in a different spot on the pan. There is no oil anywhere in or on either half of the turbo and the exhaust doesnt smoke at all, but its definately coming through in between the gasket and flange. Also in the oil pan there is a splash guard about an inch below where the bung is.

I know Dave said I could run into a problem with the direction of the crankshaft rotation, but I cut the bung on an angle to prevent that so I dont really see that happening to be honest.

Like I said I bent the ears on the flange away from the base, and this time im using high temp red rtv in a thin layer on both sides of the gasket, just waiting for the turbo to cool.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You need a restrictor, we all run them pre-turbo, especially at cold idle, and off idle, because oil pressure is at its' highest point, and you don't need all that oil being forced into the turbo, not to mention the literal size of the return line can only cover so much of that pressure. The location for the return is fine. You definitely need an oil restrictor...

http://www.racingpartdepot.com/servl...il-Feed/Detail

willexoIX

I think you are correct. Just started it for literally 4 seconds to see if the oil return line is backing up and its not. However it was POURING out of the turbo, lol. See pic.

willexoIX

Pic. 1/2 inch return line. Learn something new everyday. I probably never would have figured that out. Ill look around and see if I cant find one local before ordering online.

willexoIX

Quick ?
Whats a good size hole for the V6s higher oil pressure?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.062

project89

iTrader: (1)

3/16 line does not need a restrictor , i do not use a restrictor on my v6 car and it makes 105 psi of oil presure , i use a -3 line which is 3/16's , no restictors on my v8 with -4 feeds and hvhp pump

a restrictor and 3/16's line will oil starve the turbo

willexoIX

There seems to be absolutely no restriction in the turbo, I can look into the top of the feed and see the shaft inside the turbo(I may be mistaken and it may be looking from the bottom that I see the shaft). There definitely needs to be a restriction because the oil backs up in the drain line. With the drain line off nothing backs up the hose, but a whole lotta oil comes out of the turbo, more than the 1/2 line can handle.

I might be mistaken on the feed line, I think I got 1/4 inch and not 3/16th. So there needs to be a restriction or I will constantly leak oil out of the return flange. Determining the size of the restriction I need might be a problem. All I know is after thinking and looking at everything, I NEED a restriction, the return cant handle the volume of oil, which is why no matter what I do, it leaks.

Gotta remember too Dave, Im using a different turbo than you did, so yours may have had the restrictions built in, as some turbos do. Mine however has no restriction, hence the constant oil return leak. There is definitely too much pressure even at 40psi of oil pressure. I would estimate at least 30psi of oil pressure coming out of the return; it was virtually spraying out of the turbo with the return off.

Im gonna do some research. Its possible that because it was a diesel turbo, the oiling may or may not be different than most turbos.

willexoIX

Here is a snippet I found here:http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/faq

Q. Does my turbo require an oil restrictor?
A. Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing. The journal bearing system in a turbo functions very similarly to the rod or crank bearings in an engine. These bearings require enough oil pressure to keep the components separated by a hydrodynamic film. If the oil pressure is too low, the metal components will come in contact causing premature wear and ultimately failure. If the oil pressure is too high, leakage may occur from the turbocharger seals. With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines. Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo. The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.


Looks like I need to contact a Garrett Distributor, or do some extensive googling...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Will, .062 is the standard restrictor orifice size for the Garrett journal bearing turbo. You definitely need a restrictor, and anybody telling you that you don't need one, while oil is backing up and spewing out of your turbo is a little off of their rocker. You asked for a general size of a restrictor for the V6 engine, and every turbo V6 GN owner that I know, with varying engine configurations and return lines, runs that very size restrictor until they upgrade to a ball bearing turbo. Your turbo will not starve with a restrictor, as that is what they are there for in the first place, to slow the pressure down. The oil simply doesn't bypass the center section, the center section is designed internally to allow for the oil to coat what it needs to creating it's own little backup, it will not starve the turbo lol...

willexoIX

Thanks for that. I guess I just wasnt completely sure on some things, plus I like to do a fair bit of research to see how much information I can absorb on the subject. The idea of oil starving a turbo is sound however, as in too small of a restrictor, but I also do understand your point as well. If the restrictor is too small, say for instance a .020 resrictor, it could possibly lead to an under-oiling condition, depending on the original oil pressure specs.

I understand that the drainback is a gravity drain system, but for that much oil pressure to come out of the drain worries me, hence the need for a restrictor. I have also read that it should be a somewhat frothy mixture of air and oil coming out of the drain, which I can definitively say it was not, makes me wonder about what the internal oiling system looks like on this particular turbo.

By the way, this turbo is one of the earliest turbos developed for a diesel application, though this is off a 300SD Merc from 85, whereas the original first turbo on said vehicle was on the 74 model, So I am researching as best I can on this particular turbo model.

I will order the restrictor, .062. Once I get it and install it, I will check how the drain does with the return off. Though I trust you about an issue such as the current one, Im sure there may be some differences in the turbos at hand(GN and other such Garrett turbos).

I guess I just havent found enough info on this particular turbo(Which is a Garrett by the way). I think I read somewhere that it is a TAO 314 or something of the like. When I remember where I found the info, Ill post it up.

Looks like the car sits for a few more days, though at least not up on those damn jackstands, lol.

willexoIX

Lol. I have this sneaking suspicion that once I put that restrictor in, Im gonna have to redo my oil feed line. It has the high pressure FI clamps on it, But I guess Ill be the first to find out!

My new remflex exhaust manifold gaskets will probably be here before the restrictor, so hopefully Ill have those on and buttoned up once I get the restrictor. Hopefully no more tick tick tick tick, lol.

Ill update in a couple days guys, Dave let me know how that log looks.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

My 2 cents... I never used a restrictor on the oil feed. neither on that t3/4 one or the gt3582. Im not saying its suppose to be that way but I never had any issues with the oil feeds or returns. To be honest no one said I needed one when I first started the build so I just tossed on the lines like they were.
In your case if your backing the oil up like you are...then toss a resitrictor in there. Im no expert to say the least....

willexoIX

Yea but firing mine up with the return oil line off told me I def need a restrictor. Remember Im not using the same turbo as you guys as well. I would estimate if I left it run with the return off the oil pan would be empty within a minute. Its just too much volume for the return to handle. Which is why I cant stop the leak.

Yea no body told me about using one as well. But I guess they are needed in certain situations.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Oh believe me im not saying, not to get a restrictor... if your backing it up like you are then get that restrictor and also where did you put the bung at on the pan? Is it like where I have it on mine? Edit though I have a 90* 1/2NPT to 10an fitting on the end now though aiming slightly upwards towards the front of the car.

willexoIX

I know Mark, lol. Mines on the passenger front, welded about an inch higher than yours, I also welded mine on the pan on about a 45° angle, maybe a little less. I checked and nothing came out of the return from the pan while running.

And yes I took the plug out before I put the line on, lmao

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ahh no pressure blowing out or anything? That's good. There's a baffle in there and I forgot its placement but know if you have the bung misplaces it can cause some major oil return issues.

Im betting the oil restrictor will help a lot.

willexoIX

Yea no pressure, oil or anything. The bung is above the baffle. Remember I took my pan off, welded the bung, then sandblasted and powdercoated it. Seems like the restrictor is the right fix. Sometimes you need one, sometimes you dont seems to be the consensus.

willexoIX

So since I have time while Im waiting for that stuff to come in, Ill be working on wiring up the MS power switch and launch control switch in the switch panel. Along with re-running my amp power wire back to the passenger side from the drivers side. Then running a power wire to the inverter Im going to run under the passenger seat for the laptop.

Lots of little things to get done over the next few days, Ill update soon.

project89

iTrader: (1)

did u build the launch control input circut in the proto area?

willexoIX

Yea, I just have to jumper the wire from the proto circuit to the harness then connect it to the switch. That and the MS power through a switch will let me prime the turbo before the car actually starts. Once thats taken care of then I need to replace the cig lighter in the dash, then run the cig lighter in the switch panel from the one in the dash and through the last switch for the usb plug I put in. Itll be TCC, MS power, Launch control, IC fan, and USB plug power. Thatll take care of all the switches.

Should I be worried about blowing the muffler up with the launch control? LOL

project89

iTrader: (1)

what kind of muffler is it?how much ex pipe after the muffler?

willexoIX

Thrush welded, 2.5 inch single in and out. Maybe a foot or so of pipe with the end angled down with 2.5 inch pipe all the way.

Sweet, gaskets and restrictor will be in today

project89

iTrader: (1)

id be carefull with it , be on the launchcontrol as short as possible , ideally u would want a stright threw or bullet muffler with a turndown on the outlet

do u have a cutout installed before the muffler , if so that will cut down on the explosion risk alot

willexoIX

I have a couple vbands, one behind the turbo, another just before the bend at the firewall, then one more right where the pipe comes underneath the car. That way if I want to run open downpipe its one bolt and a vband clamp and I can take the muffler off.

Ill only use the launch control with an open downpipe then.

Hey dont think ill have any exhaust leaks with these gaskets

willexoIX

Ok, so I figured I may as well pull the passenger side turbo header off to check and im glad I did. There are about 7 leaking welds on it, including the turbo flange.

I looked over the turbo real good to make sure all that oil volume didnt blow a seal, and it didnt. I installed the restrictor on the oil feed. Unfortunately I have some welding to do to fix the passenger side header. And of course the wrap was destroyed so until I get funds to buy another roll of the wrap and a can of coating, the car wont be running. So thats pretty much an entire roll of 50ft heat wrap wasted along with 2 cans of coating because of, well you already know why.

Will update whenever I get funds. When ever that will be.

project89

iTrader: (1)

run without the wrap for now it will minimize the cracking

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Run it as is. You dont need the wrap that bad.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Don't forget those check valves, as pressurizing the oil pan through the valve covers will essentially create the same effect, it will be like the returning oil is hitting a brick wall. Speaking of which, remember we were discussing the stock check valve in the brake booster? Just checked mine the other day, and it was broke. So never take anything for granted, and build your project the right way, cover all your bases, and it will last for you Will...

willexoIX

Its on my list of bugs to take care of, lol. I already have a piece of soft line on the pcv line cause it broke a while back. So ill install one there, then the booster line.

willexoIX

Alright guys, dont yank my arm or anything, lol. Ill get it back on today. Just gotta clean up the weld I did on the inside of the turbo flange and get those exhaust gaskets on. Hoping the rain cooperates today.

Guess my initial goal of getting more heat energy to the turbo was more detrimental than anything.

willexoIX

Well its running, and sounds much better. Slight exhaust leak but I believe its the vband by the muffler echoing up to the engine bay, cause you cant hear it till you are right up on the motor.

Ill take it out in a little bit for logs and tuning.

willexoIX

Well took it to the store, or tried to. Holy crap when that boost kicks in, wow! Idle was a little low and when I stopped at a stop sign, while I was waiting it stalled. Would not start back up, tried for about 3 or so minutes. Pushed it off the road, turned the key and it started right up. Im clueless at this point.

While the hood was popped, I heard what sounded like a loose rocker rattling, so I babied it home to find out it was the PCV valve, its rattling loud as hell. Other than that, the oil return is STILL leaking....

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ok well here is the thing that I question.... Now if the gaskets are good, everything is flat and tightened correctly, and the fittings are sealed up good to the hose, then it shouldnt leak even if you had 50Psi in that return line. I understand that the return oil is just a gravity return but still it shouldnt leak even if there was pressure in there unless some gasket or the fitting is not sealed up o

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Will, if you are still leaking the same way, meaning just as much, with a restrictor no less, then there are only two possible culprits. One, the area you chose for the return is too restrictive, as you you need to drain your oil just above the oil line, not directly into the oil, or two, you either forgot to remove the plastic debris cap from the turbo before installing the return line with fitting, or the return line itself has something in it causing a backup, or it is too restrictive in itself. I myself am now draining the return oil right into the timing chain cover, didn't even bother with the oil pan. You'll figure it out, keep at it...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Make sure your Initial SA matches your spark reference, then make sure your Idle SA matches your SA main table in that RPM/KPA area. Datalog and see where your IAC steps are, and if they are where they are needed to be, then add fuel in the VE table in those cells. Are you running any VE Learns yet?

willexoIX

Im thinking the line may just be too restrictive, or the fitting itself. The threads are definitely sealed. Oil drops off the bolt on the back of the return flange and nowhere else. It weird cause there is nothing coming out of the return from the oil pan when disconnected. No pressure, no oil. Its also an inch higher on the pan then your return fitting Mark, albeit on the opposite side and more towards the front of the pan.

See reply to Mark above. I didnt forget to remove any debris covers, and am using 1/2 inch line for the return. The barb fitting in the pan is larger than the barb fitting attached to the return flange, that will be the next thing I play with, along with stepping up to either 3/4 or 1 inch return line, though its a 1/2 inch npt bung welded to the pan.

Lol. Im honestly not that far into tuning yet, Im still trying to wrap my head around SA, reading, and more reading till my head spins. Mostly I have been tuning VE, and I also have no IAC. Using the Idle screw for adjustment. Also worked on AE, DE and WE.

I had a whole lot of problems with the ICM, rotor phasing, you name it, that we thought were completely squared away before I started teardown for the turbo install.

Ill post a log up later for you to take a look at if you want. Still learning tuning so feel free to give any advice

I know Ill get it figured out eventually, but at least those damn exhaust leaks are gone. Lol.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your lucky you live in Florida...

willexoIX

Yea, its the only reason I did it. Once I get the hang of everything im gonna grab an ms2 processor and use the stock IAC.

willexoIX

So I took a look at the PCV valve, and it definitely wasnt sealing under boost, spring is pretty much shot in it, but I cleaned it for now till I can source a local check valve and grab a replacment. It seals with only a minute, and I mean tiny, leak for now till I can stop by napa.

The brake booster check valve I can do at a later date cause, well, Im not going to be boosting while im trying to stop, lol. Im going to also try to get larger hose for the return line along with larger barb fittings for the oil pan. If I need to I will enlarge the opening on the barb fittings until the problem is alleviated.

Im comparing tuner studio to megatune, and Ill be honest, I think I like tuner studio more. Gonna start using that cause with the last MS1 update, pretty sure megatune isnt supported anymore. Tuner studio is similar to megatune, but I think I like the interface in tuner studio more. Just gotta fix the bugs in the config file from loading my msq.

Hopefully Ill have some logs tomorrow to post up.

Edit- I couldnt resist when I drove it. Gave it 3/4 throttle through 1st and 2nd and the trans held it great. I know its not a high power setup, but aside from the little things it pulls hard and runs great. As long as its not stalling, lol.

project89

iTrader: (1)

whats the timing look like at ow rpm in the spark map ? i just assembled a brand new computer today so i lost ur tune files

if its stalling at idle when comming to a stop and idle speed is high enough u need more spark advance to hold against the converter to keep the rpm from dropping

willexoIX

Idle varies from 900-1100 in park. In gear its around 750-800, but if it drops lower than that it stalls. Here is my current MSQ.

at 700 rpm it goes from 18-21 from 30kpa-70kpa. next is 1300rpm goes from 18-22 from same kpa. 500rpm goes from 16-13 from 30-70kpa.

What I gather is I would need to move the values in the 500rpm column up closer to the values in the 700rpm column, or am I bumping both columns up a little for idle? Its 500-700-1300 for the first 3 rpm columns. I also noticed the table is only going up to 200kpa, shouldnt it be going up to 250kpa?

willexoIX

Heres what im putting on the return today. Dont know why I went so small on the barb to begin with but looking back, thats def whats restricting it. Ill pull it all off and redo it and report back. Still need to take a run out to napa to see what check valves they have.

willexoIX

Got the bigger barbs, 3/4 inch, along with 3/4 inch ID hose, both on the car. Have to wait for the 24 hour cure time for the high temp rtv on the return flange. Hopefully this time it wont leak.

Doing reading on the return lines, seems like 1 inch ID is the most commonly used return line. Hoping the 3/4 works though. If not its up to 1 inch. Will update soon.

willexoIX

Any tips for a 3/8 inch barb vacuum/boost check valve? Couldnt get it locally and nobody had any idea that they made them that big...

Anyone have a link on what they are using on thier boosted setup? Could probably use 5/16 barbs with hose clamps, but couldnt even find that size. Guy with a turbo neon said to do a catch can, I said why would I do that when I can just install a check valve? He had nothing to say to that, lol.

I dont want to order one online to find out it doesnt work/is crappy. Cause if the crankcase is pressurizing, then I dont want to drive it until I get that valve cause that means Id have to pull the return oil flange off again. Even though its easy to do, its still getting annoying quick.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#4610k17/=sgpop4 how about this? I wont be running over 20psi.

EDIT- On second thought I might just go with 2 of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-GM-OEM-12-13-Impala-Check-Valve-20861501-/261442802546?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cdf349372&vxp=mtr
thoughts?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well Im no help. But since im a speed density set up and dont need to account for all the air to have a good idle, I ran a breather for a few years and now I have a catch can set up out of the valve covers. The only check valve I have is for my brakes and its stock. Never had a issue. I never had to drain the catch can i have yet. Not sure if its a good set up but works great to make sure that the oil gets caught. And also that all the blow by pressure can get out quick without too much restirction. But then again i better not have a terrible amount of blow by yet on this fresh engine.

willexoIX

Well with the pcv having that slight leak, i dont wanna take the chance that itll pressurize the system even with one psi to cause the return to back up, so Im just trying to get a second opinion on which check valve to get. Though I think my best bet would be to grab the GM check valves.

I went ahead and bought 2 of the GM check valves. Though I want to start the car and see if the increased size of the return lines stopped the leak, Im going to wait on the check valves to come in. Estimated delivery is tuesday, so Ill update then when they come in. For the brake booster, ill just put another brake booster check valve inline with the stock one. Thatll have to do for now cause im ready to tune this thing already.

Hey Dave, what do you think about what I said about the SA around the idle rpm?