xMrBadDogx

So my car is leaking coolant... badly. It leaks it so bad that i lose all my coolant after about 8 minutes of driving so im assuming those bottles of stop leak won't help me. My car overheated once before (the first time i noticed the leak) and im not sure if i have warped heads. Could that cause a leak like that? Or is it more likely that its just the head gasket. If i check and the head is warped could i take it to get it resurfaced and then put it back on or do i have to use a new head? Also how difficult is it to replace a head and gasket? Im pretty confident and it seems like its just unbolting the old head and bolting in a new one.

W.E.G.

Head removal and replacement is a big job.

The degree to which it will be a challenge will depend on various factors.

Let's just start with the three exhaust-manifold bolts that you might destroy in the process.
How well-prepared are you to deal with that?

Unless you have CONSIDERABLE prior experience working on major systems under the hood, I do not recommend that you attempt head removal and replacement without experienced supervision.

When a car overheats, if you fail to shut it down immediately, there is a good chance of warping the head as a consequence of the excess heat. This would seem to be the precedent event in your case.

A technician will check the head and the block for true surfaces any time the head is removed under circumstances such as what you have described. There is no way to know whether the existing head is salvageable until it is examined.

xMrBadDogx

Here is a pic of where it is leaking. I can actually stick the head of a flat screw driver in between the block and head so theres definitely too big a leak to use any sort of sealant on it.

xMrBadDogx

Ok, good to know. Ive dismantled and reassembled an engine before but that was just as a learning and experience and i didnt to need to make sure it still ran afterwards. hanks for the advice though. About how much cash do you think this will cost to get fixed? If it's too much ill just wait until the summer, I was planning on taking an engine rebuilding course anyways. Lets say i practice at the junkyard and can get to the actual head gasket and reassemble the engine on a car similar to mine. You think its still too risky? Thanks for all you're help by the way

W.E.G.

Pouring goop into the cooling system to "fix" a mechanical failure is an act of desperation, which at best, provdides only temporary respite from tiny leaks.

xMrBadDogx

Yeah I know, i just wanted to make sure everyone understood that that wasnt even an option. I dont like using those kind of quick fixes but if it can at least help me be able to start my car so i can move it from one side of the street to the other for street cleaning than I'm ready to consider it (I was replacing a freeze plug and had to push it twice a week in order to avoid a ticket).

W.E.G.

I would not recommend that ANYBODY attempt removal/inspection/overhaul/replacement of an engine head withouth experienced supervision present. There is much involved, and much of it is finesse and understanding - both of which a novice lacks.

If you want to know how much a commercial garage is likely to charge for a repair, you can get a rough idea at:
http://repairpal.com/estimator

Remember too, unless you completely solve the condition that caused the overheating, mere repair of the damage caused by that condition, will only result in repeated, similar damage. How confident are you of your ability to diagnose the condition that caused the overheating?

Step 1: Enlist experienced supervison.

xMrBadDogx

My biggest concern is whether its safe to run the car on water just to move it across the street so i dont get ticketed on street cleaning days. Is there any harm starting it while it has such a major leak? Like i said, I'll just be moving it about 10 feet twice a week.

xMrBadDogx

Actually it tuns out i can park it in in front of my apartment. So it would be more like driving a blok but then i wont have to move it.

W.E.G.

How hot can it get in 30 seconds?

xMrBadDogx

how can it o what in what? Can you clarify what you're talking about?

W.E.G.

What is your question?

xMrBadDogx

Oh im sorry i didnt read that right. In 30 seconds it wont get that hot with a full radiator. It definitely wont heat up. If temperature is the only concern than its no problem. I just want to make sure that running then engine won't damage the internals or anything. Is it possible that somehow the head has just come loose and i could just tighten it? I can actually fit a the tip of a flat head screwdriver between the block and head so the kind of alarmed me.

W.E.G.

I've never heard of a head "just coming loose."

I suppose there's a first time for everything.

What circumstances would cause seventeen bolts, each torqued to 70 ft/lb, to each come loose at once?

If you really think there's some chance of that, you can't hurt anything by checking any bolts you think may be loose.

W.E.G.

As far as damaging the motor, if the head is warped, and coolant is getting into the cylinders, it won't be doing the motor any good to run it under circumstances where the pistons are being doused with coolant - even for just thirty seconds.

xMrBadDogx

Well what was weird is that the head was looser the further down i looked. So maybe only a couple bolts got loose. But i feel like im really reaching for it to be that.

xMrBadDogx

And i figured as much. Looks like Ill be having to push the Maro all the way back home again. You really think driving a block down the street would cause significant damage?

Kingsobieski

Probably not anymore than is already there. If the head is lifting off the engine you probably have more serious problems to worry about than leaking coolant.

W.E.G.

True dat.

Seriously, if you think the head bolts are actually loose, put a torque wrench on them, and find out for sure.

If there is any chance that a significant amount of coolant is entering the combustion chamber, I would not operate the motor. I have to wonder how the motor would even run if that were the case. Our ECM's are pretty smart about getting cars to still run, even with various important parts out of whack. But, at the point where you are feeding your motor equal parts antifreeze and gas, I think the ECM is eventually just gonnna say fuggeddaboudditt, and leave you waiting for the flatbed.

Kingsobieski

Are you sure that you're looking at the mating surface between the head and the block? I think you have a different issue going on and you might not be looking at the right spot. Potentially a bad intake gasket or a freeze plug ++ probably leaking coolant and appears to be coming from the head but really isnt.

xMrBadDogx

I was actually thinking the same thing. I just assumed the worst and freaked out then ran home and had a sunkist cuz i was frustrated i had yet ANOTHER (my 4th) coolant leak. I just replaced the only freeze plug near that part of the engine so its not that. Ill take better pics soon so you guys can tell me what you think. BUt the I pressure tested the cooling system and i saw with my own eyes water coming out of those spots i circled in the pics. I thought it was weird it was leaking through the hole that bolt screws into but kinda just figured my massively over heated engine just got that bad. Thanks for the help.

xMrBadDogx

Here's the pic, sorry if I'm actually ignorant enough to be wrong about this but i believe that the valve cover bolts onto the cylinder head? This pic shows a little better where its leaking from.

Edwardgp

Wow, yes let us see some more pictures.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

1. That leak is NOT a cylinder head leak. I had the same problem with my 2.8. It's actually a timing cover problem.
2. ALL 60* V6 ENGINES HAVE 8 CYLINDER HEAD BOLTS. 4 under the valve cover and 4 outside of it. Except maybe the DOHC engines (not sure on this, but I think they also have 8 bolts).
3. You do NOT need to remove the exhaust manifolds to remove a cylinder head. You do, however, need to get the nuts off of the manifold studs that hold the crossover pipe to the manifolds.
4. If you can remove an intake manifold, you can replace a head gasket. It really doesn't take a brain surgeon.

Again, this isn't a cylinder head problem. There is a notch in the timing cover that is right where the coolant bore for the water pump passes through it, and yes, it's going to spew coolant. Only way to fix this is to replace the timing cover OR take it to a welder and have the notch welded shut and the flange corrected.

W.E.G.

Interesting.

W.E.G.

Also:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/3...over-leak.html

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Mine was a little further up from the edge of the timing cover where the curve is... I couldn't seal that thing no matter what I did. Until I got the 3.1 after the #4 rod blew a hole in the side of the 2.8's block...

xMrBadDogx

THANK YOU FOR THE HELP!!! The guy that was helping me with my freeze plug said he can help me with my new leak and he builds cars so it looks like ill be able to fix this myself with a little help. Thanks for warning me its not the cylinder head. Luckily if my car had to break down it chose a pretty convenient time since spring break starts next week and i wont have to worry about school. Ill do some research and start getting ready to fix it. Thanks you so much

xMrBadDogx

What exactly is involved in this repair? Just taking off everything that's bolted onto the front of the engine then replacing the timing cover? Including removing the water pump and all those other giant T-60 bolts that are on the block? I ordered the OEM owners manual since I'm tired of dealing with Haynes' overly vague POS manuals, will it most likely cover this repair? Is this repair gonna be hard?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

With A/C, undo the 2 nuts holding the upper bracket to the studs on the intake, and pull out the bolt from the compressor, removing bracket. Skip for non-A/C.

Remove belt. Undo 2 nuts on rear of power steering pump (holding pump to rear bracket, not bracket to exhaust manifold!), and remove nuts and bolts from both power steering and A/C compressor-to-cylinder head brackets and power steering to water pump. Slide compressor off of stud in head and set aside using hoses, and do the same for the power steering pump. Don't kink the hoses and DO NOT disconnect any lines from the compressor!

Drain coolant. Remove lower radiator hose from timing cover. Remove heater core return hose from water pump.

Remove damper with crank pulley attached (can use just a steering wheel puller for this if you use a socket as a spacer between the crank snout and the puller bolt).

Undo all OUTER bolts on timing cover (loosen but do NOT remove yet). Place drain pan under timing cover. You may expect to change the oil after you're done just in case some coolant got in the oil.

Loosen bolts on oil pan and remove the couple on the front until you get a decent amount of clearance between pan and timing cover. Remove bolts from timing cover and pull top of cover away from engine before lifting up slightly to disengage the oil pan gasket.

Make sure you clean the oil pan gasket well and then use a bead of RTV to seal the timing cover to the pan gasket and the gasket to the block.

The timing cover gasket will come with a new oil seal and water pump gasket (if you buy the FelPro kit and not a cheapo NAPA gasket!). Do those while the cover is off if they haven't been done recently!

xMrBadDogx

Thanks, I was reading the haynes manual i have and it talked about getting the ac system decompressed but i wasnt sure if i had to do it if i left the hoses on. I'm assuming from your comment that if i leave em connected i dont have to do that? Also what exactly is the name of the front cover? Is it the crankcase front cover because thats what my manual was talking about. There was nothing about a timing front cover. And thank you fro all your help by the way. I appreciate it.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

It's called either a timing cover or crankcase front cover... If you're looking for one, I've seen a couple off of S10 engines on eBay for cheap. Keep in mind that the S10 used the same 2.8 up to 93. If you go to a J/Y, ask for one from an S10 and maybe they won't charge you as much (seems like some places jack up the price when referring to F bodies).

xMrBadDogx

Yeah i know the 2.8 was on the S10 too but at my local junkyard i dont see as many s10s. Last time i went there was a couple third gens so ill see if they have a 2.8. Im assuming the 3.1 cover and the carbed 2.8 cover wont work? idk if theres any differece between the mpfi and carbed 2.8s, im just concerned because i was told the 2.8s had freeze plugs in different locations than the mpfi engines (seems really weird to me but thats what they told me) and im not sure if they also have a different cover then? And i feel yah about the junkyards charging more. The one i go to claims they charge the same for all their cars but i dont see how people get a kart full of parts for 15 bucks and im stuck here paying 20 for a pair of door handles

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

It doesn't matter what car the cover comes from as long as it's not FWD or the newer DOHC engines. The covers are the same. With respect to the carbed engines, it wasn't the cover that changed, it was the block and crank (and possibly the rods). The crank snout stayed the same, IIRC.

xMrBadDogx

k thanks, ill definitely be able to score one at the junkyard then. Should i take the cover to the machine shop to have it inspected an cleaned up a bit? Id hate to find out that it also leaks once ive assembled everything. Or will any damage that would cause a leak be clearly visible? And so a 3.1 will work? cuz then ill definitely be able to find one at the junkyard.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Aren't some of the timing covers different depending on the year? My Fiero 2.8 had two bolts going through the oil pan into the timing cover, and the S10 timing cover I'm using on my 3500 doesn't have any bolts going into the oil pan, and is more rounded where it mates to the oil pan. IIRC 87+timing covers are the same (no bolts to the oil pan).

xMrBadDogx

Dang, i guess ill just hope they have a 2.8 third gen and luck out. Awesome that you have a fiero by the way. I REALLY want one but I aint got no cash. Its even worse the fiero cover wont work, cuz, thats the only 2.8 i know they have for sure.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're comparing apples to oranges... Fiero engines were FWD engines, with modified RWD setups, installed the the back of the car (same for early 90s GM minivans, aka the Lumina APV and TransSport, except for the engine location). And a 3500 is FWD, obviously, but is a gen IV (or whichever one), compared to our Gen I engines. But you're using a Gen I timing cover on the 3500, and probably the matching oil pan (unless you had the 3500 pan modified), so it's still apples to oranges. All RWD engines were identical externally... It's the internals that changed between 1982 and 1995.

:edit: Poke around the classifieds... Might need to go through a couple pages, but there have been a few guys on recently parting V6s.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Nope I've got the stock 3500 oil pan with a Gen I cover; I was just under the impression that the timing cover-oil pan mating surface changed somewhere around 87-88.

Edit: FWIW my TC cover came from a 93 S10.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=160887572210
That is listed as 82-86 timing cover and has a more triangular mating surface to the pan.

This is the later style
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=170913248822

Both are listed for S10s so pure RWD.

M G Brewer

I am getting the top end of my motor rebuilt right now due to head gasket leaking bad and it is costing me $1,350. $850 in labor and $300 for the headwork. $50 for all top end gaskets, $150 for oil, anti freeze, spark plugs, oil filter, new serpentine belt. I hope it runs like a dream when i get it back because its gonna be my daily driver, hopefully until my 69 gets done.

xMrBadDogx

Dam, a third gen AND a 69? Im so jealous of you right now.

xMrBadDogx

Ok, last question, I need a pulley remover (for the power steering pump) but they dont have the kind that im used to using at autozone. They gave me two choices, the 1st pic (AC pulley remover) or a the 2nd pic (2 ton puller). Which one should i use? Im pretty sure its the 2nd one but ive never used that kind before and i heard of some guy damaging his pulley that way.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The answer is don't use either... They're BOTH wrong. Both will pull on the lips of the pulley and mangle it (been there and tried that). If your guy has a bearing separator, have him attempt to use that on the part that the real puller latches on to on the hub (if you can't get a REAL power steering pulley remover).

Um, why are you messing with the power steering pump? Take out the bolts in the bracket to the water pump, take out the bolt and nuts at the top of the front bracket, and take the 2 nuts off of the bracket at the back of the pump. No need to remove the pump from the bracket if the pump is still good...

Kingsobieski

Definitely don't need to remove the pulley to take the pump off - just disconnect the block-to-bracket to remove. You will need a steering wheel puller to take the harmonic balancer off but that should be it for special tools.

EDIT: If you do need to remove the pulley - this is the correct puller style. It pulls from the ring on the center of the pump.

xMrBadDogx

Yeah my bad. I didnt need to take the pulley off. Im almost done taking everything off the front of the engine but I accidently stripped a stubborn torx bolt on the water pump and now its gonna be a PITA to get it out but ill find a way. I'm going to the junkyard soon and i was just wondering if i should have the new timing cover resurfaced or anything like that to ensure a tight seal? I really dont want to ever have to do this repair again. Thanks for everyones help so far by the way.

Kingsobieski

On my 3.1 v6 it uses regular hex bolts instead of torx. If you're at the junkyard again you might want to look around for a set of hex waterpump bolts.

For the stripped bolt - you can try to grab it with vice grips or cut the head off with a cut off wheel. Once the cover is off the rest of the bolt should come out easily.

You can check the straight-ness of machined parts with a straight edge ruler and a flash light. Just look to see if any light shines underneath the ruler. For measurements - insert feeler gauges under the straight edge to measure the warp.

I am hesitant about using paper gaskets - I prefer regular black RTV. It seals better and is easier to remove. Only need a 1/4in bead. Just want a little bit to squeeze evenly out around the sides.

If the new cover isn't cracked or missing a chunk or something - it should be good to go.

xMrBadDogx

Thanks for the help, it's good to know I can replace those damn torx bolts with some proper ones. I love GM, but that's one of the things that irritates me about them. Hopefully i wont have to cut the head off but we'll see.

xMrBadDogx

Ok, i need some serious help cuz i went to the junkyard and the same bolt got stripped on the junkyard Camaro. Something about that particular bolt makes it get STUCK. Am i missing something (like some key step to removing that bolt) or is it just that this bolt gets really rusty. I was able to turn this one like 3 turns so im sure its not a left hand thread. Below is pic of the bolt.

ALSO what was the final verdict on what covers i could use? There were some carbed 2.8s and som efi 2.8 with an extra pulley and a weird really thin serpentine belt?

xMrBadDogx

There was no 3.1s at the junkyard T_T Do you know if i can get bolts at the stealership?