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eddi stated that he was looking for an lx9 but couldn't find a good deal except for some $250 one he referenced with high miles. I recommended that since he said he was going to tear the whole thing down anyways. I never have bought a low mileage engine just to tear it down and replace everything. Eddi stated he was going to do that, so I recommended to find the cheapest one.
if he could find a low mileage lx9, then I wouldn't touch it at all except for the pump and maybe the cam.
your LZ 60 degree engine prices are way cheaper than down here. availability, supply, and location plays a part in prices for these engines. I have noticed on ebay that in canada the lz engines are going for under $500 for the most part for even low mile units. In the states, you see people asking $1k. I told eddi on car- part of a 42k mile LZ9 for $500 somewhat near him. I wouldn't tear that engine down either cept for the pump. But $500 is about as cheap as they get down here. I don't know why.
Pauter makes a forged rod for around $1200 for the set for the LZ9
if going with q 3.4 iron block, WOT tech sells the forged rods and pistons for this setup. The pistons can have the valve reliefs too
Either way you go eddi, you are going to be in for at least $1k imo when you add cost of shortblock or longblock, camshaft, exhaust, intake, etc etc.. A rebuilt 3.4 iron head shortblock rebuilt with WOT rods and pistons( if you were looking for forged components) would be the easiest, and prob the way I would go as no new mounts or starter pad mods need to be done. Also you can still use your hyd flat tappet cam which saves on $.
Ill stop with my recommendations now. Ill try to find that piston data for the LZ
lz9 forged pistons. you need to bore it out to 4 inches though which might not be possible.
Dms-1835bsx-4000. I guess they are made by dss racing. comes out to around 10:1 compression I think.
I went through my emails and found the forged ones. I think there were some hyper replacements too I will have to go back and find for a closer to stock bore. FActory is hyper and Mars has shown they can handle 600 hp. So I am sure an aftermarket hyper will be just fine for 99% of the setups on this board.
lz9 forged pistons. you need to bore it out to 4 inches though which might not be possible.
Dms-1835bsx-4000. I guess they are made by dss racing. comes out to around 10:1 compression I think.
I went through my emails and found the forged ones. I think there were some hyper replacements too I will have to go back and find for a closer to stock bore. FActory is hyper and Mars has shown they can handle 600 hp. So I am sure an aftermarket hyper will be just fine for 99% of the setups on this board.
So they are NOT LZ9 forged pistons, like I said from the start, they are for another application, not LZ9. I don't consider parts that are close but need some sort of modification as "for that application". That would mean that a Ford 9" rear end is "for" a 3rd gen F-body... among other parts that will fit, but require some sort of modification to fit.
4" would be about the limit I would suspect of boring an LZ9, since that would be a 2.6mm overbore, if there's even enough meat to go that far.
I agree hypers will work well for most people, but I think even Mars would agree that he's on the outer limits of what the engine can do in stock form. I also suspect that the oil squirters on all pistons is helping keep that engine together. The LX9 only has squirters on the rear cylinders and from my experience don't hold up quite as well, which again, I suspect to be a lack of piston cooling issue, when using stock parts and pushing them beyond their designed usage. My LX9 had #3 piston fail (maybe rod first, hard to say exactly) but that took out #4 rod as well, along with wiping the the crank trigger off the crank and couldn't really identify much of the shrapnel as crank trigger, rod or piston. lol
I think with fasteddis near and future plans, going forged pistons is a good choice here, since it's more of a race car than a street car. If the car spent more of it's time on the street, then I would agree that hypereutectic pistons would be the preferred choice. Personally I'm building a street car, but going forged, because I plan to really push my engine, possibly finding limits of components that so far no one has yet. lol
the only thing needed to be modified to use those pistons is the bore. It has the same pin diameter, correct CH, and the dish is where it needs to be for around a 10:1 comp ratio. Thats as close as you can get to an "application specific" part as possible.
Of course its not a off the shelf forged lz9 piston. I never said there were any. However it some were made the only difference between the ones I mentioned above, and the app specific lz9 ones would be the bore. Every other dimension would be the same.
buying a dished piston for an ls1 that bolts to the lz9 rod, is going to work just like a dished piston designed for the lz9 itself. the only difference is going to how much lighter your wallet will be.
I am assuming you will be going with the pauter rods since they are application specific, instead of modifying a rod meant for a different engine right? looking forward to seeing those Pauters bolted into your datsun
for the money spent to build a forged 3500/3900 it would be cheaper and go faster/be more reliable to build a sbc.
i know we dont build the v6's for any other reason then we can and its different , but there comes a point when u need to look at cost vs what u get back and the reliability of it
if u want to stay v6 keep it cheap and drop in a bone stock 3500/3900 , if u going to go forged dont waste the money on the v6 build a sbc for half the price and go faster and have it more relaible
and the only reason i say gen 1 sbc is because his ecm and trans/converter will work with it
other wise i would have suggested anything from the ls family, but converter and ecm setup would substantially add to the cost
a gen 1 is 2 injector wires added to the harness and a new set of engine mounts
if u do decide to go small block route mark let me know i have all the weld els needed to make headers that i would give u as they have been sitting on a box on the shelf for 4-5 years now
I truly am stuck at the cross roads. On one hand I really want to just take a 350 sbc toss fuel injection on it and run the s366 turbo for now and go thst route. Run 10s all day long and it's so much cheeper to built a tough v8.
On the other hand I want to stay with the six shooters and go thst route.
Its a tough decision because I know who I am. I like to go faster and faster. The next engine has to be capible of 10s because we all know I will boost it until it runs that.
the only thing needed to be modified to use those pistons is the bore. It has the same pin diameter, correct CH, and the dish is where it needs to be for around a 10:1 comp ratio. Thats as close as you can get to an "application specific" part as possible.
Of course its not a off the shelf forged lz9 piston. I never said there were any. However it some were made the only difference between the ones I mentioned above, and the app specific lz9 ones would be the bore. Every other dimension would be the same.
buying a dished piston for an ls1 that bolts to the lz9 rod, is going to work just like a dished piston designed for the lz9 itself. the only difference is going to how much lighter your wallet will be.
Other than calling them "LZ9 forged pistons" is very misleading and makes people reading it think they have been designed for the LZ9 specifically, which they are not, and require modifying the block outside of specs. They will also lack the valve reliefs that an LZ9 piston requires, which again makes them less and less "LZ9 forged pistons". If you called them "pistons that might fit the LZ9" that would be a much more accurate description.
I bet if one looked hard enough, there could be a dozen more pistons that could fit the rod along with a few other dimentional similarities, but different bore skirts, ring pack, etc... could they also be considered "LZ9 pistons" then too? No, just because something is close does not mean that it will also work in the application.
I am assuming you will be going with the pauter rods since they are application specific, instead of modifying a rod meant for a different engine right? looking forward to seeing those Pauters bolted into your datsun
No, mine are forged Eagle H-beams. I spent far less money on the Eagles than the Pauters are listed for on their website. I knew I was going to need custom pistons anyway, so the slightly longer rod wasn't a concern. In fact it's a nice change since it will cause more piston dwell time, which is good for making more power (to a point).
Originally Posted by project89
for the money spent to build a forged 3500/3900 it would be cheaper and go faster/be more reliable to build a sbc.
i know we dont build the v6's for any other reason then we can and its different , but there comes a point when u need to look at cost vs what u get back and the reliability of it
if u want to stay v6 keep it cheap and drop in a bone stock 3500/3900 , if u going to go forged dont waste the money on the v6 build a sbc for half the price and go faster and have it more relaible
I have to disagree with this. I have a long term project that has a SBC in it that as of about a month ago finally made it back to the road after 32 years ( with a temporary engine). Well I discovered earlier this year that there were some significant problems with the engine, most notably being a coolant fountain coming from one of the spring seats. I've priced out several ways to repair this problem and all are quite expensive to be honest, from what my engine shop guy wants to do to repair them to finding other stock heads and porting them, then the machine work on top of that to going with some of the cheaper aftermarket heads available, add in that at least 2 more of everything is needed, and I can build a 660 far cheaper, with less aftermarket parts that will be more than enough power for most street vehicles. This vehicle is staying a SBC, simply because it's what my uncle decided to put in the car when he built it back in the '70's. However, I'm getting another engine that has been built by someone else for FAR cheaper than I can even repair the existing SBC, their loss, my gain sort of thing, also he hasn't actually used the engine in many years and would rather see it in something cool, than just sit around.
There would have been a time I would have agreed with you on this, but that time was before the internet, since that same time the (good) gen3 version of the 60 degree V6 didn't exist, which in stock form many of the parts are capable of supporting much more power than they do in their original applications.
Originally Posted by fasteddi
I truly am stuck at the cross roads. On one hand I really want to just take a 350 sbc toss fuel injection on it and run the s366 turbo for now and go thst route. Run 10s all day long and it's so much cheeper to built a tough v8.
On the other hand I want to stay with the six shooters and go thst route.
Its a tough decision because I know who I am. I like to go faster and faster. The next engine has to be capible of 10s because we all know I will boost it until it runs that.
Mars has already proven that a stock bottom end LZ9 (with cam swap) can go 10's in a 3rd gen. To me it's a ticking time bomb, simply because it's making over twice the power it was designed for. Put some good parts in it, and 10's will be a reality, reliably, maybe even quicker.
It's not just about the size of the engine, or the number of cylinders, but the whole package including the chassis. There's been 4 cyl cars go 8's at least, granted those are max effort cars, but a couple seconds slower can be done repeatedly, reliably IMO. Add in 2 more cylinders using a 60 degree V6, with it's perfectly balanced firing order and less crank degrees between firings of a 4 cyl (120 of the V6 vs 180* of the 4 cyl) and you get a smoother engine that won't want to tear itself apart. I know of one dyno shop around here that no longer dynos 4 cyl engines, because they've destroyed too many parts on their dyno rider (cool custom engine mount to run engines on their chassis dyno), anything else they are fine with. But again your goals can be achieved with a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder.
Any more I'm glad to have gotten into the 60 degree V6 when I did, I find I can build all the power I need cheaper than any V8, and be unique doing it, while pissing off people with more money and more cylinders in their engines when I walk away from them.
Last edited by Six_Shooter; 05-28-2016 at 09:16 AM.
I am assuming you have looked at the lz9 pistons. They weren't designed for the 2 valve engines to begin with. If you noticed, they have 4 valve reliefs in the piston tops. The lz9 pistons were designed for a 4 valve head. The valve reliefs aren't even cut at the correct angle in the pistons either.
Also, ls1 dish pistons work just fine. With a dish, you don't need valve reliefs. Obviously you have a major hang up with this, however...
such a shame about not using pauter rods. The ones you have aren't application specific, and need modifying to use, plus custom pistons now to fit your non application specific rods. You cry about something trivial like valve reliefs when it comes to a non application specific piston, but then use nothing but non application specific parts in your build.
How odd.
in one post on 60 degree you claim you aren't going for maxed out power, but then insist that stock components can't handle your goal of 450 hp when mars proves it can handle 600. Whatev bro, its your time and money.
On the other hand I want to stay with the six shooters and go thst route.
Its a tough decision because I know who I am. I like to go faster and faster. The next engine has to be capible of 10s because we all know I will boost it until it runs that.
I saw your post on 60 degree, if you can get that setup, you will be back up and running in no time and for a good price. If not, and you think of going lx9, I say skip it, and go for the lz9. More displacement and the parts are proven to run 10s with stock internals. Pretty sure LX9 has done it too in mars' setup so it is possible.
with the lx9 you said you had to do, or at least wanted to do all new exhaust and intake piping and maybe engine mounts. That also has to be done with the lz9 as well, so why do it twice?
a big part is obviously how much time and money you want to dedicate this summer to getting a lx9 or lz9 in, vs throwing in that 3.4 with aluminum heads and race it this summer. I would try to make the motor swap to the LX or LZ a winter project and enjoy the next 3 months racing it. But thats just me. your goals may vary.
I am assuming you have looked at the lz9 pistons. They weren't designed for the 2 valve engines to begin with. If you noticed, they have 4 valve reliefs in the piston tops. The lz9 pistons were designed for a 4 valve head. The valve reliefs aren't even cut at the correct angle in the pistons either.
Also, ls1 dish pistons work just fine. With a dish, you don't need valve reliefs. Obviously you have a major hang up with this, however...
such a shame about not using pauter rods. The ones you have aren't application specific, and need modifying to use, plus custom pistons now to fit your non application specific rods. You cry about something trivial like valve reliefs when it comes to a non application specific piston, but then use nothing but non application specific parts in your build.
How odd.
in one post on 60 degree you claim you aren't going for maxed out power, but then insist that stock components can't handle your goal of 450 hp when mars proves it can handle 600. Whatev bro, its your time and money.
*sigh* I have a set of LZ9 pistons in my garage, the reason for the 4 valve reliefs is so that they only need one part number instead of 2 (or 4). The valves are on opposite sides of the cylinder bank to bank, so on one bank 2 of the valve reliefs are needed, on the other bank the opposite reliefs are needed. This is needed because there is a thrust side to each piston and therefore is the reason why the pistons are marked with a "front" to the piston so that the thrust side skirt (sometimes called "major thrust side skirt") is on the correct side of the cylinder. The thrust skirt is generally thicker or and/or slightly longer than the coast skirt (sometimes called "minor thrust side"). They are the same size reliefs because of the two cylinders that have the valve arrangement different from the other 4. They ARE designed for the LZ9 and not re-purposed from some other application.
Where are you getting this 450 hp number from? I don't believe that I've publicly claimed a power goal, and my actual power goal I want to see reliably with peace of mind is much higher than that. I might have said that I don't really need anymore than that in my car, but that was never my end goal. I also never claimed that an LZ9 couldn't make that power, because obviously it can, so can a stock LX9, but for how long? In the case of my LX9, not as long as I had hoped. While my experience seems atypical so far, I'm done messing around with stock bottom ends. I will not live by the LS Fan boy mentality of "Well I can just go get another one from the wrecking yard if/when it fails". I plan to build this engine to handle far more than I think I will ever get out of it so that I don't need to then go get another one when some stock part fails (again). I knew all along with my LX9 it was not a matter of "if" but "when" it would fail. I knew the abuse I put it through would show what the failure point(s) was/were at some point and I found it/them. In my case it was likely a piston and then the rod, but might have been the rod first. In either case, I want to change some characteristics about the engine internals, and Eagle H-beam rods and custom forged pistons (not sure who I'm going to get them from yet) will do what I want to do. When I first started into the build I thought I was going to have to get custom rods as well, but my engine shop found some rods that are VERY close to the stock specs, so they will work well with my intended outcome, and give me peace of mind when I'm pounding on it. I will never claim that they are "LZ9 H-beam rods" though, even though they require only one other small change... *facepalm*
I know that Mars is making at least 550 HP (based on E.T. and trap speed along with drivetrain losses), which to me is a ticking time bomb, even he admits that, and is surprised it's lasted as long as it has. Just because his engine (a single statistics point) has lasted, doesn't mean that ALL LZ9s will take the same abuse, nor does it mean that without upgrading parts, that an LZ9 couldn't benefit from them.
About those Pauter rods, why would I spend over twice as much on rods, when I need to get custom pistons anyway, since there are no off the shelf forged LZ9 pistons? A stock piston will not do what I want it to do, even if it was forged, it will not have the specs I want. So I'm spending the money in the right ways, where I need to, getting good parts that fit within my intended usage without over paying. I'll likely be able to get my entire piston and rod combo with the parts I'm using for just what those Pauter rods cost.
My issue has been that you claim there are certain parts available when they are not. There are no forged LZ9 pistons on the market currently, especially the ones you provided the part number for, no matter how you slice it. LS6 pistons are not LZ9 pistons, even though they have the same bore size (99mm). You can use them it just takes a custom rod then (akin to boring out an engine to 101.6mm for your proposed pistons)... Call a part by what it is, something that is close and may work, but don't claim it's something it's not.
If you believe that a stock bottom end is good for 600 HP, why are you worried about forged pistons then? That seems to contradict what you are saying. So this just supports the way I'm building my engine even more, with off the shelf rods, but custom forged pistons because I know how I ABUSE my car, and would rather do it once. I have finally decided on an engine that I will keep in the car so now I'm spending the money on it. If it wasn't my intended engine I'd just run another stock bottom end. Do it right do it once, do with the intended end usage in mind and it will last.
If Fasteddi wants to roll the dice and use a stock bottom end, I'm sure it will get him to his goals, but I will never claim that he will be happy with a stock bottom end LX9 or LZ9, with where his car is headed. Someone else with lesser goals, yes a stock bottom will likely be fine, depending on a few other variables, but for Fasteddi, I don't see a stock bottom end lasting.
I saw your post on 60 degree, if you can get that setup, you will be back up and running in no time and for a good price. If not, and you think of going lx9, I say skip it, and go for the lz9. More displacement and the parts are proven to run 10s with stock internals. Pretty sure LX9 has done it too in mars' setup so it is possible.
with the lx9 you said you had to do, or at least wanted to do all new exhaust and intake piping and maybe engine mounts. That also has to be done with the lz9 as well, so why do it twice?
a big part is obviously how much time and money you want to dedicate this summer to getting a lx9 or lz9 in, vs throwing in that 3.4 with aluminum heads and race it this summer. I would try to make the motor swap to the LX or LZ a winter project and enjoy the next 3 months racing it. But thats just me. your goals may vary.
They guy lives like 5 minuets down the road from me.. small world. I'm going to go look at his set up tommorow. He sent pics and it all looks good. 3.4l block. 3400 intakes and heads 38lbs injectors for the heck of it and a cam. All freshly rebuilt.. but he hasn't said if he put 3.4 or 3400 pistons in it. I'll take a nice good look but it's clean from the pics. And he wants 200 bucks for it all.
It's not even June so it would be nice to just toss a set up for racing back together.. 12s or so then tear it down this fall and forge it the way I want to.
Even if they aren't 3400 pistons, stock replacement 3400 pistons can be had pretty easily and inexpensively to get you through until winter.
I'd still push into the 11's, you've been there with less displacement, and ABUSED the hell out of that 3.1 bottom end, the 3.4 bottom end should get you into the same realm a little more easily.
Even if they aren't 3400 pistons, stock replacement 3400 pistons can be had pretty easily and inexpensively to get you through until winter.
I'd still push into the 11's, you've been there with less displacement, and ABUSED the hell out of that 3.1 bottom end, the 3.4 bottom end should get you into the same realm a little more easily.
remind me again what 3.4 pistions and 3400 heads come out to compression wise?
if its 10.25-1 ish i would have no issues runniing it with the turbo on pump gas
my sbc is about 10.3-1 and it runs really good but not as forgiving to a bad tune or fuel as a 9.0-1 motor would be
if its any higher then 10.25-1 it would have to run on e85 for sure
remind me again what 3.4 pistions and 3400 heads come out to compression wise?
if its 10.25-1 ish i would have no issues runniing it with the turbo on pump gas
my sbc is about 10.3-1 and it runs really good but not as forgiving to a bad tune or fuel as a 9.0-1 motor would be
if its any higher then 10.25-1 it would have to run on e85 for sure
About 12:1, IIRC, definitely higher than 11:1 for sure.
I agree about the 10:1 area, right now I'm shooting for 10 to 10.2:1 in my LZ9 build. I don't plan on running E85 because there is none in my area. I'll just run the highest octane there is around, usually 91, which from what I've read over the years is a lot like the 94 or higher octane found in the US due to the mixture of ethanol for winter driving, even when sold in the summer.
Stock 3400 pistons will be in the 9.5 to 9.6:1 area with the 3400 heads.
About 12:1, IIRC, definitely higher than 11:1 for sure.
I agree about the 10:1 area, right now I'm shooting for 10 to 10.2:1 in my LZ9 build. I don't plan on running E85 because there is none in my area. I'll just run the highest octane there is around, usually 91, which from what I've read over the years is a lot like the 94 or higher octane found in the US due to the mixture of ethanol for winter driving, even when sold in the summer.
Stock 3400 pistons will be in the 9.5 to 9.6:1 area with the 3400 heads.
The LX9 was 9.8:1 and it was fine.
i was thinking it was in the 11.5-1 area if mark has e85 in his area its an option , specially since he needs bigger injectors anyways (30% larger for a given power level )
a 11.5-1 to 12.5-1 turbo motor on e85 would make some killer power
in the low 11.x-1 range good pump gas with methanol injection would be sufficient , but i wouldnt trust that setup with 12.x-1 or higher even intercooled in addition to the meth injection
i was going to build my sbc with higher compression and run e85 but the nearest station that sells it is 65-70 miles each way
at 10.0 to 10.2-1 u will be fine on pump gas , at my altitude i can get away with 89 octane in my motor , but i wouldnt dare set the thing on kill , best fuel they sell in my area is 91 and ive set the boost up in to the 20's without issues even with the high compression on the 91
He just got back with me and said they are the small dish style!! Score. All for 200 bucks. We may have this puppy up and running soon then. He's coming over tommorow am to drop it all off for me. Finally some good news.
wouldnt small dish mean 3.4 pistons not 3400 , dont forget to pull the heads and check the top ring gaps , hate to see them be to tight and u take out some ring lands
wouldnt small dish mean 3.4 pistons not 3400 , dont forget to pull the heads and check the top ring gaps , hate to see them be to tight and u take out some ring lands
Hmm you may be right there. Smaller combustion chamber on the 3400 heads. Dang.. I could run a na set up.. lol
wouldnt small dish mean 3.4 pistons not 3400 , dont forget to pull the heads and check the top ring gaps , hate to see them be to tight and u take out some ring lands
That's what I was thinking. Until he gets them and looks it's only speculation or second hand information.
*sigh* I have a set of LZ9 pistons in my garage, the reason for the 4 valve reliefs is so that they only need one part number instead of 2 (or 4).
GM would not make a piston with 4 valve reliefs, even if they were going to use the same part number for both. they could have made the valve reliefs the same size whether the relief was going to be for the exh or intake valve. Basically, you make the relief designed for the intake valves, and the exh will easily clear so you can still keep a single part number.
Where are you getting this 450 hp number from? I don't believe that I've publicly claimed a power goal, and my actual power goal I want to see reliably with peace of mind is much higher than that. I might have said that I don't really need anymore than that in my car, but that was never my end goal.
you stated the hp you were currently making on your old engine(well under 450) was way more than you could even use. I then suggested a 3900 and you said it was pointless and no reason to go to that, because you couldn't use the power you were making in a smaller displacement engine.
Now you go 3900, and you are suddenly an expert and your datsun can now use more than 450 hp and have it hook. Got it.
When I first started into the build I thought I was going to have to get custom rods as well, but my engine shop found some rods that are VERY close to the stock specs, so they will work well with my intended outcome, and give me peace of mind when I'm pounding on it. I will never claim that they are "LZ9 H-beam rods" though, even though they require only one other small change... *facepalm*
So your engine shop chose a rod that isn't application specific? How could you let them do that? That contradicts everything you have just said! OH KNOES!
About those Pauter rods, why would I spend over twice as much on rods, when I need to get custom pistons anyway, since there are no off the shelf forged LZ9 pistons?
because they are designed for the lz9. they are made specifically for the lz9. no modification to anything required. Like I said, you seem hung up on the valve reliefs as some huge insurmountable problem
My issue has been that you claim there are certain parts available when they are not. There are no forged LZ9 pistons on the market currently, especially the ones you provided the part number for, no matter how you slice it. LS6 pistons are not LZ9 pistons, even though they have the same bore size (99mm).
I didn't claim there was a forged lz9 piston. I am sorry you interpreted it that way. Its not my fault you read something that wasn't actually said. There are forged pistons that fit the lz9. you obviously know this now but are still arguing over semantics. There are also hypereutectic replacement pistons and cast. I have found some forged drop ins with various compression ratios both forged and non forged. I have done extensive research on this. You have not obviously.
If you believe that a stock bottom end is good for 600 HP, why are you worried about forged pistons then? That seems to contradict what you are saying.
I looked into any type of replacement piston whether cast of forged. I didn't limit my options when searching. If I could get a set of forged for $450 and a set of cast for $300, and get the forged in a CR that I wanted, why would I not do that? I researched so I could share my info with others. I wasn't researching solely for me, which is what you are doing.
but I will never claim that he will be happy with a stock bottom end LX9 or LZ9, with where his car is headed. Someone else with lesser goals, yes a stock bottom will likely be fine, depending on a few other variables, but for Fasteddi, I don't see a stock bottom end lasting.
Where is Eddi's car head exactly? could you be more rude? lesser goal? define that. What exactly is your goal? 800 whp? 9's in the qtr? before you say someone else has a lesser goal, why don't you tell everyone what your goal is? I am willing to bet, that your goal is more than capable of happening on stock parts. Especially since your last engine made more power than your car could handle and those are words from your mouth.
GM would not make a piston with 4 valve reliefs, even if they were going to use the same part number for both. they could have made the valve reliefs the same size whether the relief was going to be for the exh or intake valve. Basically, you make the relief designed for the intake valves, and the exh will easily clear so you can still keep a single part number.
It doesn't take much examination to understand why GM chose to make a piston with 4 valve reliefs for this application, I've already explained why, but you choose not to see or understand it.
you stated the hp you were currently making on your old engine(well under 450) was way more than you could even use. I then suggested a 3900 and you said it was pointless and no reason to go to that, because you couldn't use the power you were making in a smaller displacement engine.
That is true, that even at 450 HP, which is pretty close to what I was making with the LX9 I couldn't at that time use all of the power, and still can't. The well under 450 HP, would be the L28, not the LX9. Get your facts correct. That doesn't mean that I never wanted to make more power, just for reasons that you will never understand. I got talked into going LZ9 by Mars, because he made me a deal I couldn't refuse, and for my end goals it made sense to go that way now instead of later. I also decided at that same time I'd still have an LX9 powered vehicle, so the time invested into my LX9(s) wouldn't be wasted.
Now you go 3900, and you are suddenly an expert and your datsun can now use more than 450 hp and have it hook. Got it.
Not an expert, but I understand it, because I research things when I need to. I have yet to ever say that I'll be able to get it to hook with even the power I made previously, so stop trying to twist things into what I HAVEN'T said...
So your engine shop chose a rod that isn't application specific? How could you let them do that? That contradicts everything you have just said! OH KNOES!
Explain how that contradicts everything I just said. You can't, because it doesn't. In fact I have stated that they ARE NOT for the LZ9, but a close fit, and so they fit within my reasons and end goals for using them. How could I let my engine shop do that? Because they've been building engines for a lot longer than you or I have been on this planet, they have NEVER steered me wrong and I trust them, simple as that.
because they are designed for the lz9. they are made specifically for the lz9. no modification to anything required. Like I said, you seem hung up on the valve reliefs as some huge insurmountable problem
How am I hung up on those as some insurmountable problem? I've never claimed that a piston couldn't be ****ing ground out for valve reliefs, it's been done, an in fact I've done it myself on an LX9, since the larger cam I was using got REAL close to the raised ridge around the piston.
I didn't claim there was a forged lz9 piston. I am sorry you interpreted it that way. Its not my fault you read something that wasn't actually said. There are forged pistons that fit the lz9. you obviously know this now but are still arguing over semantics. There are also hypereutectic replacement pistons and cast. I have found some forged drop ins with various compression ratios both forged and non forged. I have done extensive research on this. You have not obviously.
YOU DID claim they are "LZ9 forged pistons", that says that you are CLAIMING that they are FOR the LZ9. This is the first time you have said "Forged pistons that fit the LZ9", which in fact they do not. 2.6mm over bore just to fit them does not equal "fit". Nice try on the back peddle. You know you claimed that those pistons were a direct fit when they were not.
I looked into any type of replacement piston whether cast of forged. I didn't limit my options when searching. If I could get a set of forged for $450 and a set of cast for $300, and get the forged in a CR that I wanted, why would I not do that? I researched so I could share my info with others. I wasn't researching solely for me, which is what you are doing.
LOLWUT? When you share incorrect or at the very least misleading information, that's worse than not sharing anything at all. If you are upset that I'm not sharing the part number of the rods I am using yet, it's because I want to test them in a running engine before I claim that a particular combination of parts work, before suggesting to anyone that they do. This is where you and I differ, I share real world experience and results, not just what someone once said on some forum that one time, or possible parts claiming they work. If I have an idea for someone I make it clear that I have not tested that idea, to make sure that they know there's no guarantees.
Where is Eddi's car head exactly? could you be more rude? lesser goal? define that. What exactly is your goal? 800 whp? 9's in the qtr? before you say someone else has a lesser goal, why don't you tell everyone what your goal is? I am willing to bet, that your goal is more than capable of happening on stock parts. Especially since your last engine made more power than your car could handle and those are words from your mouth.
Well, Mark's already said he wants 10's (possibly more) with reliability and no worry, he and I have discussed some of this outside the forum, how is it rude to know what someone's goals are suggest a better path to those goals. You seem to have a hard time comprehending this conversation, or just many conversations in general from what I've seen of your interactions here and on other forums.
It doesn't matter what my goals are, the comparison to lesser goals was to what Mark wants, not what I want, so again, try to follow along with the conversation before you get in a huff.
My initial goal is capable on stock parts, I have no doubt about that, but for how long? how many times can I pull that cord before it no longer holds? I also have another much larger goal after that, which I know stock parts won't hold up to, nor do I even want to try that on stock parts.
You seem to be more pissed off that I'm calling you out on your at the very least misleading information and that I want to ditch stock parts, than anything else. How about you build your junk your way and I'll build my junk my way. I'm sure we'll both be happy with the results when we do.
Last edited by Six_Shooter; 05-29-2016 at 02:47 AM.
wow look how pissy you get when I call you out on talking trash about someone elses car and goals, when your goal is much less than that. I ask you a direct question on hp and qtr mile, and you dodge, and deflect. Give us all a number tough guy.
you can't put down the power, and claimed its not worth it to go lz9. Then all of a sudden you have an epiphany, AFTER I suggested you go lz9 and you got all huffy and puffy with me and pretty much argued with me on 60 degree why its stupid to go lz9. Now all of a sudden you are an expert on parts interchange with the lz9 and how your bottom end is the cats meow, even though you are using cheap off the shelf parts. Funny, you bash me for finding off the shelf pistons for a different application to keep costs down. YOu are a hypocrite.n you got called on your BS now watch you cry and stomp your feet.
Once again, I am sorry that you misinterpreted what I said. I can't help the way you read things. I have found forged pistons that fit the lz9. I have only listed one of the pistons I have found. You haven't found any, because you don't care to look. You don't care to do any research on it. Your way is the best way, just ask you.
wow look how pissy you get when I call you out on talking trash about someone elses car and goals, when your goal is much less than that. I ask you a direct question on hp and qtr mile, and you dodge, and deflect. Give us all a number tough guy.
you can't put down the power, and claimed its not worth it to go lz9. Then all of a sudden you have an epiphany, AFTER I suggested you go lz9 and you got all huffy and puffy with me and pretty much argued with me on 60 degree why its stupid to go lz9. Now all of a sudden you are an expert on parts interchange with the lz9 and how your bottom end is the cats meow, even though you are using cheap off the shelf parts. Funny, you bash me for finding off the shelf pistons for a different application to keep costs down. YOu are a hypocrite.n you got called on your BS now watch you cry and stomp your feet.
Once again, I am sorry that you misinterpreted what I said. I can't help the way you read things. I have found forged pistons that fit the lz9. I have only listed one of the pistons I have found. You haven't found any, because you don't care to look. You don't care to do any research on it. Your way is the best way, just ask you.
My goals are none of your business, why do you need to know what my goals are so badly? why is that bothering you so much? Maybe I have plans to actually harness that power, but I guess that would make too much sense, so you didn't think about that...
Who am I talking trash about? I have not talked trash about anyone's build in this thread, I don't even know how you could interpret what I said that way?
I'm not going LZ9 for the reasons you suggested to, I'm going that route for other reasons, also of which are my own and I don't need to justify them to you or anyone else. I am not a hypocrite in the slightest, people can change their minds, it is allowed you know? Circumstances change and so do the parts being used. Besides I've looked at the LZ9 LONG before you suggested it, so don't begin to think you had anything to do with me going that direction.
I never said my bottom end is the "cats meow", why are you reading more into what I write than what I do? This is your problem, you don't even begin to comprehend what people write, you assume more or something different than what they write. I've seen this several times across forums. All I've said is that I have a different direction than what other people have done that I know of. I'll release the details once it's tested as a known good combo, hell, I'll even release the details if it's an utter failure to say: "Hey I used X and Y parts, and this was the result, YMMV." I'd like to have actual data before suggesting the parts I have selected as good direction to go. FWIW, So far everything is working out swimmingly in initial test fitting.
LOL @ the "I don't research bit"... I research a lot, always have and always will. You still have not listed an LZ9 forged piston, because they don't freaking exist. Pistons for a different application that are close but require modification are NOT a direct fit, nor can be claimed as "for the LZ9" no matter how you slice it. I'm sure most people would agree. FWIW, I have found several pistons and a few rods that would fit with modifications, but none of them work work for me for my end goals, or make sense financially when I believe I've found a better and less expensive route that will give me EXACTLY what I want out of the combo.
I'm done trying to explain things to you, you obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension, as evident by you twisting not only what I say, but what other people say in various posts. You can let my lack of spewing my goals or what parts I'm planning to use bother you, or you can grow up and move on.
Last edited by Six_Shooter; 05-29-2016 at 11:34 AM.
Update I bought the engine. But I'm our racing another car today since I'm in the points at milan.
Take it easy guys.....
Nice. Can't wait to see how quickly you throw that together, and what it will do in your car.
So the points stay with the driver, even when a back up car is used? That works nicely. I've been involved in some race series where it wasn't only the driver, but the car that was awarded points.
Yea our points classes follow the driver which is a nice thing.
I lost 1st round. Had a good rt. Better then the guy I raced but my truck slowed down and was .08 from my dial in. My .036 to his .054 rt. It suxs to tred someone and loose.
Here's some pics. I got a steal I think.
Bad thing. The Pistons are rwd pistons. Good thing the engine is literly brand new. Never ran. New bearings all arround. He gave me new gaskets all arround in boxes. New lifters. Custom length pushrods. New timing set. new very small cam. 36lbs injectors. 22lbs injectors. The heads have been cleaned very well. All for 200 bucks!
So I guess I need some new pistons. I want some head studs and toss it all back together. He said it's just honed (std. Bore)out with new moly rings but I'll have to measure to be certain.
Actually this is the cam in it. May be better then the one I have. Lol the lift with my 1.6 rockers is .500 intake .534 exhaust. So it's a bit bigger then mine. And split well. Brand new never ran. So i may use it. He had some comp cam 981 springs but my comp cam beehives are way better and allow much more bind hight. But I sure do have lots of spare parts now.
can u buy e-85? if so dont change a thing just run it
That would be interesting to see how that would pan out. I've never played with E85, since there is none in my area, but it has piqued my interest in the last couple of years from a performance standpoint. The production costs, both monetarily and environmentally make me question it's sustainability though.
That would be interesting to see how that would pan out. I've never played with E85, since there is none in my area, but it has piqued my interest in the last couple of years from a performance standpoint. The production costs, both monetarily and environmentally make me question it's sustainability though.
same here cant get it locally , but i know a few ppl who do run it on high compression and turbo motors and they absolutly love it
But 12:1 compression and boost? Seems a bit wild to me.
E85 is all over here in new ohio
But then I need huge injectors and a bigger fuel pump... hmmm
u need injectors that are 30% arger for a given hp level
its like running 110 oct race fuel , and its extremly good at cooling down the air charge
be aware if u continue to use the nitrous on e-85 it takes different jetting
i bet u that with the high compression and more displacement u probably wont need the nitrous
let me ask a few guys that run e-85 what they think about 12.x-1 and a turbo
But 12:1 compression and boost? Seems a bit wild to me.
E85 is all over here in new ohio
But then I need huge injectors and a bigger fuel pump... hmmm
Calculate the static compression ratio first. Get all the numbers. measure the piston height from the deck, verify head gasket thickness, and verify head CC if possible, or just use the stock number.
Then with your cam specs, calculate your dynamic compression ratio. With those duration numbers and ICL, I suspect a good amount of overlap. That will bleed off your compression, thus making it more like a lower compression motor.
I made the swap to e85 on my turbo setup. I love it. my CR is around 10.8:1. I bought a walbro 450 pump and 60 lb injectors. Calculators show 500 hp capable with those injectors maxed out. I got my injectors off ebay brand new for under $200 too I think. THey are venom injectors.
your tuning window will be smaller with a higher CR, but e85 is very forgiving when it comes to tuning. you have not know your exact CR to see if its worth swapping pistons. RAdical ls7 builds do 14:1 CR and run e85
Calculate the static compression ratio first. Get all the numbers. measure the piston height from the deck, verify head gasket thickness, and verify head CC if possible, or just use the stock number.
Then with your cam specs, calculate your dynamic compression ratio. With those duration numbers and ICL, I suspect a good amount of overlap. That will bleed off your compression, thus making it more like a lower compression motor.
I made the swap to e85 on my turbo setup. I love it. my CR is around 10.8:1. I bought a walbro 450 pump and 60 lb injectors. Calculators show 500 hp capable with those injectors maxed out. I got my injectors off ebay brand new for under $200 too I think. THey are venom injectors.
your tuning window will be smaller with a higher CR, but e85 is very forgiving when it comes to tuning. you have not know your exact CR to see if its worth swapping pistons. RAdical ls7 builds do 14:1 CR and run e85
you got a knock sensor yes?
Yes I have a kr sensor
I'm decent at tuning but I've never messed with e85 before. I'm just playing with the idea. It may be best to just toss in fwd pistons and call it a day with 9.6:1 comp ratio. Then I can just keep my 48lbs injectors keep my 255lph fuel pump and ot have to worrie about my wideband controler set up either....
id prob swap pistons too. that would get you back on the road faster. you can research swapping to e85 at a later date and whether its worth it for you or not.
you could be baller and get forged pistons from WOT tech now if your budget allows.
u dont need to change ur wideband , u just want a different reading with e-85
u can swap to the same pump(s) i did and u would need 60 pound injectors
oe u could just put 80/85# injectors in it
i have to lookup the pumps i bought but they are 440lph , they are oem flexfuel pumps and are cheap
witht he high cr u will launch harder and spool faster and it will make a bunch mor epower on e-85
Oh I know I'm at the top of my fuel pump limits. Lol I'm sure I'm almost 500hp at times when I was pushing it.
I like the idea of the e85 but I'm not sure how I change my slc diy2 wb controler to drop to 7 8 afr for wot e85 tuning. And I'm not sure on how the rods and such will stand up to all of that compression and 10 15 psi of boost on top of it.
Also I have the budget to get forged pistons but not when they cost 800 bucks. I though ross use to sell them alot cheeper?
Also I need head studs but wot sells them for 200 bucks because it's a mixed set for the hybrid. Anyone wana go in on buying a fwd set and I'll buy the rwd set and we can split them to save money?
Also I have the budget to get forged pistons but not when they cost 800 bucks. I though ross use to sell them alot cheeper?
Also I need head studs but wot sells them for 200 bucks because it's a mixed set for the hybrid. Anyone wana go in on buying a fwd set and I'll buy the rwd set and we can split them to save money?
if u want to change pistons buy a set of keith blacks for 50 bucks and call it a day
studs would be nice , but do u really need them?
if it was mine i would check the ring gaps, put it back together as is , get some 85# injectors and one of those 400lph pumps and run it on e85
Also I have the budget to get forged pistons but not when they cost 800 bucks. I though ross use to sell them a lot cheaper?
I tend to stay out of things like this, but with the power you are pushing how can you not go to forged pistons. Think of the carnage that would have occurred if that last piston gave up 9 - 10 seconds later...
I tend to stay out of things like this, but with the power you are pushing how can you not go to forged pistons. Think of the carnage that would have occurred if that last piston gave up 9 - 10 seconds later...
RBob.
Bingo. Now you know why I stay out of it too. Everyone, for some reason or another, goes by the old adage that cast pistons are good for up to 450 horsepower, but what they keep forgetting is that the saying, although is unrealistic for constant drag racing and would make for a ticking time bomb regardless, is a saying that is also based on a V8 engine which requires less fuel consumption per cylinder than a V6 does to make that power. Cast pistons don't know if they are in a V6 or a V8, all they know is the amount of pressure they are able to withstand. It is senseless to not go with a forged piston at a 120+mph trap, especially with the engine already apart.
u guys are missing one thing whiich hasn not been mentioned yet , he's already at the point that the rwd block likes to crack at , hes also at the point were he very well may break the crankshaft .
why spend 800$ on a set of pistons , when ur are so close to breaking the crankshaft , or the block anyways
Bottom line Dave is it is obvious how much horsepower and weight it takes to run a number with six cylinders, but to repeatedly pull and replace engines at these horsepower levels is ridiculous, and it will happen over and over at that power level. Once your reach 120+mph it defeats the purpose of running a cheaper engine with cast parts, it's going to blow rather quickly, and unless you enjoy pulling engines out every other weekend, if not every weekend, then where is the enjoyment of racing? At 115-mph the engine will live with a good tune, but 120+mph is really asking a lot from any cast GM V6 to pull that much weight down the road. To each their own of course...
All i was doing here was brain storming with you guys and look at the arguments ive started... its amazing.
Anyways im ordering some hyper 3400 pistons and moly rings. Head studs 3400 head gaskets for the proper quench and calling it a day. But i do plan to run the brand new cam that came with the engine as its a bit better for my top end rev.
I didnt plan on going ape shittt and cranking the boost to ungodly amounts and pushing any more hp then i did before. I plan to actaully back it off so i can get in a season or racing the thing. Im happy with 12.0s@114mph or so and it did that a few times last year quite constantly at about 12psi of boost which is pretty low IMO.
At street lethal, you had a comment about repeatedly pull and replace engines at these horsepower levels is ridiculous.... I take it that comment wasent about my builds. Come on now man, you know I have ran the hybrid set up for literly 3 years now with not one time where i had to pull the engine out of it. And i have about 50 11 second time slips and well over 200 12 second times slips. Keep in mind that durring most summer months i get in a good 20-30 passes a month dependend on how many rounds i win.
Yes i want forged gut trust me, and i dont intend to push it until I do so. I just cant afford forged pistons, and i agree that why even get those, then the crank is weak, or then the blocks ready to shatter along with it.
I had a freak crack in the piston and it shattered. Oh well. Its time to rebuild it and go on. I stand behind these 660 engines. If i keep turned down to 10-13 of boost, still im trapping 115mph and the engines happy.
So thats how I stand. I hate to see everyone argue so much sometimes. Everyone has there own opinion and you really had no idea what i plan to do, but keep in mind im a racer, i need this crap back together fast, racing a 18 second ford escape is no fun....
Ill update who wants to know, about the progress once its running again.
05-27-2016, 06:13 AM
