project89

iTrader: (1)

btw freakshow does free restalls , send it back and have it restalled to 4,200-4,500

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

restalling it that high would probly make for a long ride to the track i would think wouldnt it? and make alot of heat on the trans? I was crusing at 3k all the way there at 65mph. I just dont wana have the car be so wild that i can take it to the track without a trailor.

My other options are to get a divided .91 ar housing and get a quick spool valve... which isnt cheep.

Nitrous which would actually cost less for a solid set up then the quick spool valve.

A 2 step would help yes... But i am concerned that the boost threshold of that turbo is high enough that comming outta the 2 step it would fall on its face, or that i wont be able to consitantly holeshot the car at the line.

I feel that having taller gears would only make it worse. Because im still not getting the rpms up like i need to. Im ticked that i sized the turbo bad and though that it would still spool up ok, but i just need to step back and think what would work the easiest and get me off the line fast constantly.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

If you want a good torque converter, that will act like a near stock converter when cruising but then flush to high stall when you romp on it. Get a Coan converter. A friend of mine uses a converter from them in his 4500 lbs 500+ HP olds with a 4L80E behind the 455. It worked EXACTLY like the guy a Coan said it would. Mild when cruising, but flash to about 3400 when he romps on it.

It wasn't cheap, but from what I've seen worth every penny.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I have no complants about the converter. I asked for 3500 stall and thats about what it does. And the slippage % at the top end of the track yesterday was only 8% which isnt too bad.

Im just concerend that with a higher stall the street manors will be bad.

Honestly i dont car how it spools on the street as i never floor it from a dead stop. I just car about the holeshots at the track.


I hate to say nitrous is the only way to go but for 400 buck i could piece together a nice kit and a bottle would probly last a year as it would be a small shot and would go off when i tell it to with a hobbs switch. But the problem is i have no experience with that and if it would get the rpm up like i want, would it work like i want?

Im in a bad bind spooling up this big turbo. i should have just gotten a t3 housing!

Gumby

Ditto, if built right you won't notice till you flash it. The heavy car Buick guys all end up there after off the shelf units just dont deliver. You need it built by a pro who builds it for your car and that starts in the $900 range and up...

project89

iTrader: (1)

converter shouldn't be at 3k all the time , call up freakshow , they will fix it they arent happy till u are happy. they come highly recomended

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

the converter was at 3k rpm when i was crusing at 65mph. dont forget i dont have OD anymore. it drives fine when im going slower. its not up at 3k all the time.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

All I'm saying is this Coan converter is the only high stall converter I've seen work this way. With low throttle accel you'd swear it's a stock converter, until you smash the throttle.

EVERY other high stall converter I've come across flashes much higher before engaging, even at low throttle.

If I ever use an automatic in anything of mine, it will be a Coan converter used, even though they are expensive.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The freakshow works well. You wouldnt know it wa a 3500 stall till you mash the gas. Ill call them and see what they can do but i dont see that helping me that much but it might.... its alot tighter at low rpms then the old POS 2800 stall i had from autozone..lol

project89

iTrader: (1)

my tci is the same way , u would swear it was stock till u put ur foot in it

project89

iTrader: (1)

i get what u were syaing now , i would lossen it up another 300-500 rpms and then look for spool time elsewere

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I talked to mike over at freakshow. He said hed do it for free i just gotta pay for the flight out there on the converter. I may just have to do that. I talked to him and he said that another 300-400rpm wont make it feel any different arround the streets. So i may just try that and see if it helps. On the log over the weekend.

Boost started at boost starts at 3900 slowly... then by 5200rpm its full boost. 13psi. And never drops durring shifts. But that launch to 5300 is a long time on weak NA v6 engine. Literly takes 2 or 3 seconds to get the rpms from 3300 flash to 5100 rpm. The flash seems to be less but when its coming from a 140hp NA engine the tq is weak to stall it higher.

Another issue with the stall is he said that if it does make boost at the line the flash would be considerbly higher then before(all motor start no boost. So if it was restalled to 4200 or so, and the boost like that was building at the line... it would flash higher yet.

A friend of mine has a nice little wet kit nos sniper for sale im seriously contimplating. 25 35 and 50 hp jets included. But then again messing with the converter is pretty much free or next to nothing cost wise. But i don't Wana take the trans out again...lmao

project89

iTrader: (1)

put the wetshot on it first , u need to dyno the car before u change the stall anymore, i would use the 2 step first before all of that , just bump urself into the next class up so u can use it, or just try it out in qualifying and see if anyone says anything

that turbo is a good choice , its a race type turbo so yeah its going to be laggy but once u get everything else dialed in its going to move

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo. A taller gear will help it spool in conjunction with that 3500 stall speed, however if he was running the stock converter than he could simply swap tire size for a similar effect. Most TTA guys I've come across retain the stock 3.27's in their 9 bolts and average a 1.5 sixty foot power braking it, and they very rarely go with a shorter gear because they find themselves blowing through second gear whenever going with say a 3.55 gear or up (numerically).

34blazer

Let me throw in my 2 pennies...


I feel that the converter stall right now is good.


A 2 step will help but isn't allowed in that class, maybe try something else for now.


Changing gears may help get going but maybe cost some time at the big end


A wet shot is an added dynamic, will also work for relatively cheap, but I would want to use it on the street and in some areas its illegal to even have a bottle connected


A smaller A/R housing would definitely help and not have to worry about sacrificing any power at the big end since the shift points are less than 6500, but there is not bolt on housing available, so that's out. Might be able to bolt a T3 housing on there that has been machined for the larger turbine.


Now here's my solution, and take it worth a grain of salt if you want, but swap to the .91 twin scroll, build a spool valve out of common materials, even use a wastegate actuator and plumb it up, maybe use a grainger valve or restrictor to control the valve.


If the slip is 8% at 13 psi, that's good, add more boost and the slip will increase, what is that going to be like if the converter is loosened up? A nice 9.5" converter would be ideal, but a good converter is going to cost $1K and up.


With a twin scroll and a spool valve its going to spool nicely and have a great powerband.


Of course,

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the tips and advice everyone. Im learning much more about this and getting a lot of options to try out. I appreciate it more then you know.




73* and sunny forcasted for sundays race. I have a trick up my sleave that im going to try out this weekend at the track. Its a secret that I have and Ill let you guys know if it works. If it does back into the 11s i go fingers crossed.

project89

iTrader: (1)

just change classes and use the 2 step problem solved

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Only if you pay the extra entry fee..lol Im in the spt points class. Hence I paid to be in the point class for sportsman.

I got a project in the works. And it's not a 2 step. I'll update when I got it done. Hopefully saturday afternoon

project89

iTrader: (1)

dont u pay an entry fee each time u race? is it more money to run in the next class up? or do u ust have to buy then number for the next class up

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

In for your solution, I'm mulling over smaller ex side on mine and I'd like to see what you do.

willexoIX

I think I know what you're doing...

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Dave I pay a entry fee each time and a early fee for joining the points races. So i paid money to join sportsman before the first race.

Its no biggie ill race pro here and there with the 2 step in about a month. But for now while the points races are coming up each week i gotta stay in sportsman. I got something though i think will drastically help me. Ill update ya guys asap on sunday afternoon when im at the races!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Rfl blow off valve leaks. Probly has the whole time I've had it now that I see how it's made. Nothing is there to sell up the body vaccum area from going right out the bell.

Im going to need another bov then. But im racing tommorow regardless. It not terrible but I know it's a boost leak but then again how long has it been this way.....probly 2 years..lmao

34blazer

Looks like your turbo has a anti-surge compressor cover, if so, get rid of that fleabay piece of **** blow off valve.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea it has a anti surge housing. I still need a bov.... any reccomindations?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe is right. You don't need a BOV Mark, get rid of it.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You don't need a bov with a anti surge housing? Where does the built up pressure go? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The moment you let off of the gas and the throttle blades shut, the turbo drops boost pressure because the exhaust that was driving the turbo is no longer there. With superchargers though, they are RPM driven, so when they let off of the gas, the RPM's are still there, and that is where real surge comes into play and why most supercharger kits come with a BOV, rather bypass valve. I don't know one Grand National guy running a BOV, I don't go near them myself unless I am running a manual transmission. To answer your question though, the anti-surge housing works by allowing a small opening(s) to bleed off pressure, thus allowing the air speed over the inducer to remain constant reducing air pockets causing surge.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I understand the ported housing. I just wasn't sure if that would cause harm to the turbo and if that housing is big enough to let out the pressure without long term issues. Thanks guys though I sure never heard of ppl not running a bov. But im still new... sorts

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Here, here is an old video of mine before any tuning was done with the anti-surge housing of the old T72 I used to run. When your at WOT and at full boost pressure, and when you let go of the throttle (not all the way) and bring it to 50% throttle, what happens to the boost pressure? It drops substantially, and the engine is still taking air in via vacuum. Now, when you close the throttle blades all the way, boost pressure again immediately transitions into vacuum, and the air that the turbo is sucking into it is being taken in through the center orifice (the inducer) not the surge holes, and if any surge happened to make its way towards the inducer when slamming the throttle blades shut, it would simply bleed off through those holes because the transition from boost to vacuum is instantaneous. Do you understand now? Picture it occurring a few times, it will settle in...

34blazer

The anti surge housing is ported to let "over pressure" in the compressor to be released just in front of the inlet, accomplishing the same thing a BOV does.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I haven't used an anti surge housing, but the pressure in the intake tract before the throttle body does not instantly go from boost pressure to vacuum, it usually peaks slightly when the throttle is slammed closed and then needs to go somewhere. the pressure wave usually reverses and stalls the turbo. Which can bend or break turbine shafts.

Personally I wouldn't rely on anti-surge holes to vent this excess pressure, even if I ran an automatic.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ahh. I got ya. Makes me wonder how much boost I'm leaking off. Scares me a little. Thank you guys.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I am not going to argue about this. However, you do not run an automatic. No Grand National or TTA came from the factory with a BOV, and they were tuned for up to 15-psi. I personally know of five nine second Grand Nationals that do not run a BOV, and there was never a problem, nor do they have any now. BOV's are for manuals. As for boost not transitioning from say 30-psi to 0" instantaneously when letting off of the throttle running an automatic, feel free to show me any video observing a boost gauge showing the contrary.

Edit: Here is an oldie but goodie showing this very transition. As for a running vehicle, the residual boost pressure is vanquished by the lack of exhaust pulsing during decel. There is simply no resistance, thus no boost pressure...;

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

*sigh*

Most manual cars (especially any from the GM brand) never came with bov/bypass valves when they were manual either, so that's a poor citing right there. GM did however install bypass valves on the Supercharged 3800s.

Just because some people don't run a BOV does not mean that EVERYONE should do the same. It just means that those people chose not to use one, while I can think of many, many other cars that run automatics and run anywhere from 6s to 12s and use BOVs. So that argument is invalid.

As for the video of a boost gauge showing what I'm talking about, of course any boost gauge is going to show it instantly going to vacuum WHEN THEY ARE ALL CONNECTED TO THE MANIFOLD SIDE OF THE THROTTLE BODY. *facepalm* A manual car's boost gauge would show exactly the same on the manifold side of the throttle body.

I'm talking about the OTHER side of the throttle body, where next to NO ONE attaches any sort of pressure gauge, except for some that might do it for diagnostic or research purposes. This is not a debatable phenomena, this is basic fluid dynamics. Air flowing through a tube that is then quickly blocked will have a reversion pulse happen that can be damaging to any pumps or impellers upstream IF the reversion pulse is strong enough. Yes many people get away without any sort of pressure relief on their turbocharger equipped vehicle, but many others have not.

Just because you choose not to run one, does not make it the proper way to do it, it's just the way you choose, where as I will choose differently when it comes to this, I will run a BOV/bypass valve, though I'd likely set it up a little differently on an automatic than I would on a manual.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The funny thing Mark, is that the BOV was essentially designed to keep turbo's spooled up during manual shifts, it was never intended to save the turbo from surge from its' inception, as that is what they were designed for, manual transmissions. I would dump the BOV even without the anti-surge housing when running an automatic, but that's just me. We have had countless arguments about this on other websites, and your always going to have yay and nay from both sides of the spectrum. Does the BOV extend the turbo's life? The jury is still out on that one, in fact it does more harm than good from a performance perspective when it isn't set up properly. In any event, it's your ride, so you do what you feel is best...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let me explain something to you in case you don't quite understand how an engine works. The IAC valve is a controlled vacuum leak, and when the throttle is slammed shut, the IAC does not close, the engine is still ingesting air, the IAC has to stay open otherwise every conceivable engine gasket would be blown from the pressure of the suction. You honestly think by holding your hand to an open exhaust after blipping the throttle closed you will not feel any exhaust flow lol? Where do you think that exhaust flow is coming from with a closed throttle body? Seriously? The "residual" boost charge from slamming the throttle closed is taken right into the engine through the IAC valve which remains open during decel, period. The BOV was designed to maintain spool up for manual cars, period, not to save the turbo. I am not interested in your theories, only in facts, and the fact is you clearly do not run an automatic transmission, a transmission in which does not need any help from a BOV to maintain spool up due to its' constant engine load, and two, you clearly do not know how an engine works. If you have something to show through any of your tests and/or projects, I will look at them and give you my thoughts, but until then, your words simply have no bearing to me, and I am sure you can now see why...

project89

iTrader: (1)

use white greasse on the piston in the bov it seals it up the amount of boost/airflow the valve leaks is minimal , all piston type bov's leak a lil bit its just how they are made but they are dead reliable versus a diaphram tpye valve

leave the bov on just grease it, its std maitnence on that type of bov

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

For the sake of argument now because now I am curious, why should he leave it on? My buddy Murph just got done swapping an LC2 in his C10, no BOV, and he is running over 20-psi of boost pressure with a bigger turbo than Mark's. Why do you think a BOV is needed in Mark's application?

project89

iTrader: (1)

its cheap insurance, and even if not needed it reduces thrust and bearing load when the throttle is closed

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Herein lies the never ending argument found on many boards, as the one side will say it reduces thrust against the shaft, but then the other side will say that the intake demand of the engine itself, an engine which is still spinning and pulling in air at high RPM's despite suddenly closing the throttle body immediately after wide open throttle, is way too strong enough and will overcome any remaining residual charge (if any) in the intake tubing and pull it right through the IAC valve. The charge has no choice, that is where it is going. I happen to agree with the latter, and this is through my own personal experiences because I don't run a BOV. Understand Mark that Dave just underlined it and I agree with him, it is cheap insurance, but it will in fact have a negative effect if it's not set up properly. I didn't even know he was running one all this time, sad to say that I assumed he wasn't because of the auto.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the iac passage itself is not big enough to pass the volume of air under presure in the intake tubing and intercooler fast enough to relive the presure against the compressor wheel , which suddenly just got slammed twards the backing plate , since the hotside just went into negative presure , and the coldside has x amout of cubic ft of air compressed at 10-15-20 psi etc


will his diesel turbo live under those conditions.... more then likley , but he has the bov even to buy a new one is dirt cheap and it adds a layer of protection to the turbo so just run it

if the valve itself is blowing open under boost thats a different story , but the leakage he is seeing past the piston is 100% normal for that style valve , some heavy white or black grease will minimize the leakage and allow the valve to operate more smoothly

now something totally unrelated

if u want to help spoolup off the line a simple ai r solinoid and 16 oz co2 tank and 38mm wastegate on the intake tube will do wonders

basically u replace the bov with a wastegate and use the co2 bottle with a regulator/soilinod to supply enough air to the bottom of the gate to hold it openwhile staging the car , this allows the turbo to spin upto speed without having to fight boost presure in the intake.

as u come off the brake u release the button holding the wastegate open and it slams shut , all the sudden all that air the turbo wa smoving ends up going into the inatke and u get instant boost

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

What the heck are you talking about lol, what volume of air under pressure lol? Once the throttle blades close boost pressure REDUCES immediately, and there is no more pressure. The pressure was VANQUISHED, not by magic, but by the engine, the engine ingested it. The boost gauge does not lie, pressure is gone the moment you let off of the throttle, it was CONSUMED (not combusted, but consumed). There is no pressure. Only supercharges maintain pressure because they are RPM coerced. Now, on a real side note, isn't it kind of ironic how ZZ3astro ruined his Precision turbo (excessive shaft play) with very little mileage on it while running a BOV...

Edit: I am done arguing, you guys can believe whatever you want, it's all good. Good luck tomorrow Mark, and don't be afraid to lose the BOV. What I tell you I show by example, and there is NO residual charge in the intake when you let off of the throttle, whatever is left is immediately consumed by the engine. This is a T72 with no BOV at 8-psi which was about 450-horsepower according to injector size and duty cycle, watch the boost gauge hit 8-psi, then immediately revert back to 15" of vacuum the moment I let off of the throttle. If there was a residual charge, it would show/reflect in the resistance reading (boost gauge), but there wasn't any, because there isn't any...

project89

iTrader: (1)

umm if the engine ingested all the leftover compressed air u wouldnt hear the bov opening .
it would be dead silent

Gumby

where does the internal waste gate ones fall into the mix?

willexoIX

Hard to argue with that. FWIW, Six isn't quoting theory, he is quoting fluid dynamics. Which is one of the LAWs of physics. Hard to argue with that fact.

The simple fact that the BOV makes the "whoosh", or whatever sound, demonstrates the fact that the air leaves the intake tract pre TB, through the BOV. The human species cannot see things that happen in milliseconds, therefore just because a boost gauge "instantly" returns to 0 or vacuum doesn't prove a thing. We can't see what happens the instant the TB is closed without proper scientific machinery.

There is a double edged sword here, and if you ask me its a sugar pill placebo effect.

The GN guys don't run a BOV; ok does that make it right? No, thats the opinion and until a publication is made to prove otherwise then its all conjecture and poppycock.

FYI, BOV=Blow Off Valve. Simply put, and PROVEN BY PHYSICS, it was designed to, well, blow off excess pressure.

Street, you failed to mention how many people DON'T run an IAC. I am one of them. Its wired in, but not active and I still have the old one blocking the passage.

In a nutshell, fluid dynamics demonstrates that ANYTHING that gets its path blocked, water or air, hits the object blocking the path, leaving nowhere for it to go but backwards, hence a pressure wave travelling back to the turbo, which CAN (not WILL) damage the compressor wheel blades as they are aluminum. And it will provide a reversing pulse to the wheel and try to spin it backwards, which again CAN (not WILL) damage/bend the shaft.

I'm not taking sides and I am not making enemies; but the FACTS included above have been PROVEN by the LAWS of physics. It starts as a theory yes, but when it is scientifically proven, it becomes FACT.

Besides, just because I like to run 120mph in a 45mph zone, does that make it right? Point made.

The truth: Street you are quoting opinions, with no scientific proof.
Six is quoting the laws of physics, with loads of scientific proof to back it up, after all, its something the human race has been putting together for THOUSANDS of years. How long has the turbo exsisted?

:end rant:

Just tired of people running thier mouths and arguing over an object whose name clearly states its purpose, and trying to argue with the laws of physics.

And no I won't post up proof, if you want to educate yourself go to school for physics or buy a physics book. The answers are absolute.

willexoIX

Wastegate and BOV are different things. Wastegate is on the exhaust, and the BOV is in the intake.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Are you serious? It depends on the setting of the BOV, if it is set too easy to open, ANY pressure will bypass and "vent", even at idle lol! I can show you a BOV that opens the moment the engine is started, you think that's from a backed up charge lol? Not to mention what you yourself were probably hearing was the byproduct of an inferior and cheap ebay BOV that more than likely leaked constantly and would open when a fly farted....

Gumby, the problem for the last 28 years was people not being able to differentiate between turbo "horse sneeze" and "compressor surge". Horse sneeze is not compressor surge, in fact my turbo SBC sounds like it has a BOV when it doesn't, it just sneezes. What people are hearing are the blades "chopping" incoming air during the creation of pressure resistance (boost), then when letting off of the throttle, the incoming air gets backed up momentarily from the sudden closing of the throttle body, but that is not compressor surge, it is sneeze. Take one engine with a factory intake and turbo and you won't hear any sneeze, put a cold air intake on it with no other changes and suddenly you will hear it sneeze. Does this indicate compressor surge? Of course not, it's the byproduct of an open intake tract. I can make that same horse sneeze noise with no engine load and blipping the throttle, it's not compressor surge...

willexoIX

I don't hear anything but conjecture and opinion Street, no offense.

Back it with a scientific paper and find a way to disprove physics or like I said. Its your opinion. A handful of guys don't run a BOV on thier GNs. Thats fine and dandy, but do you have the numbers for the other side of the equation? The number out of billions that DOES run a BOV?

willexoIX

Yes he is. My FACTORY BOV does not make a sound until I let off the throttle at 15psi.

And it makes the same sound when I let off any time in boost, never in vacuum.

This is clearly the reversion pulse being exhausted.

You are not arguing with us, you are arguing with the laws of physics.