fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Stock spring weight just fresher ons since the can install. Delta suggested the stock lbs rate if I was turning under 6500rpms. I though valve float was a studder that you could feel? This is just higher then 5k and its just slower, not dramatic but its definily a lot slower up in those rpms.

Saar

they're gen1 heads.... they can only be taken so far. as so found out by people that were paying almost $1000 for portwork on them and they still ended up being outflowed by stock gen3 heads.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u have valve float and u wont feel it unless its super excessive to the point of hanging the valve open most of the time or its damaging the cam


sarr thos eheads have a ton left turbo regal / grand national heads flow even worse and those cars make 5/600 hp with them all the time

Saar

they also push stupid amounts of pressure through them too... didn't grand nationals run roughly 15PSI stock? i've seen some heavily modded stuff going into the 25-30 range, i'm assuming with some significant head rework as well.

project89

iTrader: (1)

there are guys pushing that much boost but 500 can be obtained at 19-21 psi
these guys do home port jobs ive done tr/gn heads before and prefer the 60* irons over those after being ported

and to top it off they make those numbers without turning over 5,500 some shift at 5,000 , the only thing they have over the 2.8/3.1/3.4 is more displacement and a better intake.

the thing with the tr/gn guys is those cars have had support for a long time and this day u can pick how fast u want to run and get a list of parts that will do just that

u cant exactly do that with a 60* engine yet

by next year fast should be running into the 11's with his car

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

They were tuned for 15-psi stock, but left the dealership with the wastegate set to 8-psi, and even then the tune was far from perfect back in '86/'87. A lot was left on the table with GM, the LV8 was so off it isn't even funny. But anyways, your right about boost reaching the 25-30 psi range to reflect some good numbers with those guys. Bone stock, GN's will run 14 seconds in the 1/4 mile at the same boost pressure as Mark, so considering he is running high 12's at that boost pressure is quite the accomplishment. Not sure what he expects at a higher RPM with the same boost pressure, as the numbers alone tell me that his cam makes its' power down low and mid range. This is a two valve head we're talking about too, and why anyone would expect power throughout the RPM range, meaning down low, mid, and up top, is questionable. What exactly are the cam specs of this 260 Delta grind anyway...?

project89

iTrader: (1)

212/212 iirc its been a while, i know from experience that the 260 cam will float the valves with stock valve springs though

the 260 should make mid and upper power falling off around 6,200
the cam in my car is between a 260 and 272 grind and makes power just over 7k

the 252 cam is the low/midrange cam

project89

iTrader: (1)

the 260 cam is
212/212 @ .050 112lsa and .450 lift int/ex lift numbers may be off but i know fast has his cam card laying around

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Don't know too much about the Delta cam outlet, but I can say for a fact that the Turbo Buick guys will run a similar 212/212 cam but won't go any higher than 6000-RPM because it isn't usable power for them, it would be wasted effort for the engine. They don't touch their springs unless they run a roller cam with higher lift, but lift doesn't give you RPM, duration does. To justify spinning it that high for those guys would require much more duration than 212/212, and much more stall than just 2800. In Mark's case he is limiting his engine to only 12 pounds of boost, but expects a 3.1 to pull above 6000-RPM, which it just can't. You can force the RPM up there by upping the boost pressure, but it just isn't usable. The only increase he will see by revving it that high, with this setup, is an increase in his air temps...

project89

iTrader: (1)

yup that cam should pull right to 6k i ran the same cam before changing it, with stock stock springs i started floating valves right at 5k which is right wer he is saying power is falling off , though im not sure what is his ignition timming looks like at that point

he has 2 options cause im sure cam upgrade is comming sometime down the road

set of comp cams 980-12
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-980-12 which is good for the current cam and rpm range

or a set of 981-12's which will hold upto a 280* cam and high7-8k rpms with a modified lifter
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-981-12

i run a spring slight stronger then the 981 with a modified lifter , mine are actually roller cam springs and i dont recomend doing that


for him id recomend the 981's with the correct retainer and lock package which runs around 100 bucks for everything.

this is the same spring package i install on the heads i do for everyone

the only thing i dont recomend is breaking in a new cam with the 981 springs if ur not carefull during assembly and breakin with those springs u will wipe out the cam lobes

the 981's will support any cam and rpm he can throw at that thing without getting into crank lightning and rotating assembly work

here is the set of matching retianers
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-742-12/overview/

dont have the part number for the locks off hand but the sales guys at summit can get it for ya


even the 980's would be a world better then the 20 yo stock valve springs he has on the engine now, those things prolly only have 75#'s seat presure and maybe 115#'s open , well below the spring that should be used with the 260

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Do you hear yourself? 7-8000 RPM's, why would you even encourage that with a stock cast setup? Again, he is running only 12-psi of boost pressure, and he is simply not pushing enough air to justify spinning it that high. He is doing this with a small ebay turbo, whereas the GN guys are doing it with a large high flowing Precision turbo. He is trying to do this with only 12-psi, whereas the GN guys are doing it with 20+psi. Your giving his setup way too much credit, and are leading him to believe he has more than what he really does. Since his last turbo, his trap speed has essentially stood the same, so where is the power increase from the bigger turbo with this cam? If his turbo and cam can make the power that your are suggesting then you need to show him, you simply can't just say that it does otherwise he is chasing speculation backed by no proof. If he ups it to 20+psi like the GN guys do then he might see a difference in RPM, but otherwise 12-psi isn't much of an increase at those RPM's, and yes, he said above 6000 RPM is his earlier post, not 5000-RPM...

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

My timing curve isn't very impressive. Its literly 21* plus or minus .5*s for 3k rpms up and at my 10-13psi area.

That may be the cause of it also.

I don't exspect my engine to make tons of hp up top but its just seems as its either my timing curve, cam or heads stopping me at this point.

Im not limiting the car to 12-13psi of boost. Im just scared of what could happened at 15psi or so of boost. 10psi this year is as fast as 16-17psi was last year with much better intake temps.

I didn't shift that high on purpose. It was a accident. I normally shift at 5800 rpms because that's where the car likes it. I don't exspect my car to be a monster at high rpms. I was just stating that its always been slower at the 5k and up rpms.

Rob this turbo is a new monster compared to last years. It took 18psi and was pretty lean last year to get to a 13.31 one time. This year with 12psi I went a 12.90 and many many 13.0x passes also ive kept it healthy rich. The new turbo is a huge step compared to what I had. Its not the best turbo I agree with that but its a much better one then I had last year.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your TRAP SPEED tells the real story, ET is just launch. What was your trap speed compared from first turbo to second turbo at the same boost...?????

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Its about the same, about 1-2mph higher if that. My 60 ft is .25 faster though..lol The boost lag is so much less due to either my turbo or piping... or both in general. Keep in mind I steped up the gearing in the rear. Crossing the stripe at 5600 rpms compared to 5k last yer. But the lag isn't there like last year, the boost is lower, and its keeping very cool intake temps for not having a intercooler.

Trap speed can vary due to launch. I spun the tires pretty good once the other week and went 108mph for a trap speed and it was a 13.50 lol

Last year when I broke the ring. That pass was a 14.10 @104mph. Not bad for 5 good cylinders..

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo!

project89

iTrader: (1)

21/22* is what i recomend on timing up that high so ur fine there. i can gaurentee u u are floating the valves been there done that first hand experience , even put the stock springs in my spring tester , they will not work at that rpm, maybe and a very big maybe is the stock springs that are brand new would work, but for 50 bucks for a good set of springs is well worth it

u should be shifting that thing with ur current setup right around 6k-6,200, i have the same exact setup, except for a better header

btw u have a pm

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

K thanks dave. Got it. They were new ones but I assembled those heads with the new springs initially back when I was just doing a cam. Totally forgot about them till you said something.

Rob, how can you say that trap speed is all that matters in a HP. There are so many other factors to take into consideration. Makes no sense to me what your suggesting but im done arguing because there is NO NO way that little turbo I had last year would ever get me into the 12's let alone under 13.30's. NO WAY. That thing was smaller then it was advertised as is. It was supporting about 300hp then just blowing hot air...lol This new one is just now in its effiency range. But ill just leave it at that.

And update next time I go out racing as always.

project89

iTrader: (1)

is what i said i never told him to spin it that high

which is right around 6,500 rpm with that cam , 2 engines with the same cams the smaller one will get more rpm out of the same cam , the larger the engine the smaller the cam will act


we wont even get into the bore and stroke differences between the 2 engines

project89

iTrader: (1)

u need some tire slip on launch to keep wheel speed up this is why when u spin ur mph is up

its a balancing act of the proper amount of slip to not hurt et but to mph good, like i told u before 1-2 revolutions of the tire on launch is about ideal

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Arguing lmao? There is no argument, more horsepower means higher trap speeds. Your sixty foot decreased which is why your ET decreased, every tenth in sixty foot equals two to three tenths in ET, no surprise there that you were quicker yet not faster. You say your making more horsepower, then PROVE IT, show me a dyno graph. If you were making more horsepower it would show in your trap speed, period. If you want to listen to Dave because he tells you what you want to hear, no problemo, but your trap speed tells it all, and if it stood the same, then you gained nada, zip, zero. As far as your old turbo not going twelves, you didn't even turn up the boost, so how the heck would you know for sure? There, now I am done telling the facts. Take it or leave it, but your trap speed tells it all, and it hasn't changed...

project89

iTrader: (1)

he did turn up the boost he was running 19/20 psi running 13.30's , now hes running 11 running 12.90's

that much boost on the 35 will put his car well into the 11's

his low mph is directly related to the gear swap , put back in the 3:23's and mph will jump 3-5 mph

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No way. 19-20 psi? Show me a past thread with him quoting that much boost for those runs. Besides, I just asked him above how much of an increase he seen in trap speed with the new turbo compared to the old turbo at the same exact boost pressure, and even he said it was about the same, so right there that proves otherwise. But again, I am done, as he puts it, "arguing" with him, because I was originally arguing in his favor, but now his ego got the best if him because now he is burning chips for people and he can't be made to look as if he doesn't know what he is doing. Heaven forbid...

project89

iTrader: (1)

i know he posted it but im not sure in what out of 3 or 4 threads it was in, it may even have been on one of the other forums .im sure next time hes on he will verify , hell i have datalogs of him at the track he sent me at 16.5 psi

i think he missed the point of at the same boost presure , he is running faster this year with alot less boost the he did last year

project89

iTrader: (1)

briefly looking threw his old threads i wa strying to find matching runs at his current boost level , the closest i found was 13.5 psi , hes running 11-12 psi now

at 13.5 psi he was running 14.2's @ low 90 mph

so hes picked up 14mph and 1.3 seconds about at the same boost level

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Rob if you want a datalog here is one of the 13.31 pass(16psi) I did the same with 9psi the first time out this season. The new turbos threshold is better, efficiency is better. Why do you think that of all the ppl on here, it would be me to sugar coat things and bs. Believe me if I had more time tonight to dig id find some 19psi runs because I definitely was dumb enough to try them last year.

project89

iTrader: (1)

19 psi wasnt dumb it was just rushed, knowing what u know know about tunning and such u could safley run that much boost this year, though i will stress that i would deffinatly add an intercooler before going that high, or upping the percentage of alky

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea i dont plan to run that much boost with this set up. I dont exspect the stock guts to hold up to a 20psi shot on this turbo.

Looking at deathsaars Tq converter right now. Woundering if 4k stall is too much for me. Mine stalling at 3200-3300 rpms right now at the track. Its gotta be better then that 118 dollar one i have though...lol

Saar

i love all of the different ways Dave and my name have been intermixed in this thread alone.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Opps i ment 2 R's. Sarr

Saar

there should be a "t" in there too, but oh well.

project89

iTrader: (1)

ahahahahahahahaha

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well hot damm. Im just all messed up this afternoon. Gotta love typing on a tiny tiny phone and just messing it all up. I think i need glasses, wait mabey thats why i always red light at the races..lmao

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well fellas its almost augest already. Heres the game plan for me. Augest 10th is Night Under Fire at Norwalk. Ill be racing in that then after that I may hang up the towl for the year and get a head start on the car. Im starting up my apprentership school for a pipefitter in september. Ill be busy to say the least.

My car needs..... stronger valve spring, (still undecided on the trans), intercooler, massive painting from the fire back in the spring, clean up my wiring mess, full exhaust with cut out, and the list goes on. Im to the point where i have a 14 flat car to race if i want to(the gtp) so why not take my time for once and really get this car in shape to be a solid turboed V6 car. So many things id like to do to it.

So I just may dial in 14psi for night under fire. And let her rip for a few runs and see what it does then if it survives then call it quits for the fall and dial in the engine right. Or mabey even do a full 3.5L swap if i can figure that out. Im still undecided at this point. I just know i want alluminum heads badly so that i dont have to crack the boost up so much to get the power i want. I have alot of gtp friends. I would bet that i could get a 3800 for close to nothing. But then how well does that puppy fit into the car let alone i need hp tuners for the ecm. I mean my one friend has multiple gen 3 and 5 M90s that are displays in his house he has so much gtp stuff. He buys and parts them out. Thats where i got mine from. I even have a few ecms laying arround for them that he gave me but the problem still is there that i have no expreience on any of that stuff.

But then the thought arises. That if i intercool what i have over the winter. Put some stiff valve springs in, a better delta for higher rpms, larger ratio rockers, Get the trans figured out, and even get a larger turbo a 66-1. Could the stock guts take it assuming my tune is on point and no detination at all, cool temps, and alky to assist as always. I really like my engine as is and mabey im hard headed and stubbern sticking with the ole 3.1L

project89

iTrader: (1)

going to aluminum heads and less boost wont be less stress on the engine. boost presure does not equal stress on the motor.
aluminum heads or not u still have the same parts in the bottom of the engine

its the hp number and rpm that stresses the engine components

i also wouldnt park the car after that race fall is comming quick and turbo cars love the fall witht he cooler air temps and less humidity. that alone will pick the car up a bunch

u also have to think how far u want to actually take the car things start to get a lil more exspensive once u hit 11:50's

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Its not that i want to take it to the 11s as much as i just want to have a full exhaust on the car, a intercooler so that i can street drive it better and stuff like that. Let alone the engine bay looks horrid from the fire. I just feel that its about time that i start really prefecting the car. Not as much chasing times as just making the car better as a whole.

project89

iTrader: (1)

do the little things first like intercooler, and ex system , then clean up the wiring , and then when u get to busy to race worry about the trans and valve springs

mars061

^ Is this true ?

I always thought the more boost, the more exhaust back pressure and the more heat generated. I like the aluminum heads, but I may be biased...

to me its a mod any serious V6'er should look at, for the weight savings alone not to mention much better flow.

Hell starting off with a complete junkyard 3500 is a MUCH cheaper route and much more potential.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the added ex presure can actually cushion the piston/bearings , but yes there is more heat.
most of the stress on the internal components comes from the presure spike from lighting the air fuel mixture, the more air and fuel u force in or take in the more powerful that explosion is

there is a lot more to it but thats the majority of it , rpm and piston/rod wieghts play alot with it as well

as ive found if u can make the pistons rods/crank lighter without weakinging them this gives more rpm potential and less stress on the rods and bearings at high rpm

this is the reason my engine has been able to survive numerous swings of the tach well past 7,500 rpms

if he wants to go that fast im all for a full 3500 swap , btu if he wants to keep this thing a street car no cage etc, i say he just change what he needs to change in the car and keep the current engine . i have no doubts that that lil 3.1 can run into the 11 second range

project89

iTrader: (1)

let me add that a properly designed turbo system/header can have the same or less ex back presure then an n/a engine

if u hit the point of excessive ex back presure on a turbo system u are pretty much at the limit of ur system and pushing it harder will cause more stress on the engine

most guys shoot for a 1-1 ex intake presure ratio, one my cars i usually shoot for around 1.2-1.3 -1 pr

ur average turbo system will see around a 2-1 pr once u start getting into the 2.5-3 and higher pr's its time to change something

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Lucky I didnt turbo the lawnmower yet..lol It blew the rear end out the other day. Thinking of rigging up a straight gear for the rear end so that she really rolls but will only have fwd, no reverse. the lawnmower is a total loss so why not. Mabey this will keep me occupied so i dont tear down the camaro

And why are my pictures showing up as links all of the sudden???


http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...27553390_n.jpg

project89

iTrader: (1)

use photobucket for pictures instead of facebook all the pics u put on facebook keep disapearing

Gumby

photobucket sucks too, not a good long term solution, only direct forum uploads will last more then 3-5 years......

project89

iTrader: (1)

ive had my photobucket like 8 years only time pictures disapear is if i rename them or move them to a new folder

Saar

same here. they're quite persistent until you specifically do something to muck up the works.

Gumby

Well as a forum admin of over 10 years, we got plenty of threads that are now nearly junk cause people didn't keep their accounts active, but real forum uploads will remain forever. viragotechforum.com

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Starting to look at what intercooler i should go with for the car. I like the idea of a piping kit just because I can make it work in a days time. I just want to make sure that the intercooler is large enough to flow and not become a horrid restriction.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-31-INCH-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-2-5-ALUMINUM-PIPING-U-PIPE-KIT-CHROME-RED-/261181782920?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccfa5bb88&vxp=mtrToo small? My turbo outlet is 2 1/2.

Ive looked at the difference between bar and plate and tube and fin. What is your guys opinion on those options. I dont mind spending 200 bucks on a intercooler. Its not my only means of cooling sincei have the alky but its something to help its drivability since i dont wish to invest in a progressive pump and controler.

After beating the living out of it out in the country the other weekend i noticed that its a pita to not richen up when im mid boost mid rpms. The alky is just too strong at times because the hobbs is set to 6psi and my command is 12.5. A intercooler would help so i can turn up my hobbs switch a tad.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i use this on my iroc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/31-x12-x4-Universal-Front-Mount-Alum-Large-Intercooler-/390273480083?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ade1cb593&vxp=mtr
works great just use 2.5 to 3.0 inch reducers on the intercooler so u can use 2.5inch plumbing

edit i would pick up a cheap 10inch pusher fan on ebay and mount it onfront of the intercooler as it will block free flow of air to the radiator , that being said i dont have a fan on mine in the iroc and the car will cruise at 215* all day long in 105* heat , but i did just install a 3 core aluminum radiator

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

7 or 10 degree locks on the valves? Its time to get those springs on before the end of the season along with the springs and such.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ok dave thanks

project89

iTrader: (1)

standard 10* locks will be fine , i dont think they make a 7* retainer for the sprinng out engines use

just call up summit with the part number for the springs, and ask for the correct part numbers for retainers and locks