hybrid 87bird

Hi, all I'm new here and want to share with you all my idea and plans for my bird. In short the plan is to grab a RWD 3.4 V6 from the junk yard, rebuild it and swap a set of 3400 FWD heads on to it, make a custom aluminium intake and a Carbureted Eaton M90.

alright so we all know that the 2.8 is no power house in fact its extremely underpowered, the main problem is that the heads restrict it's flow greatly, just by turbocharging a stock 2.8 you can put down some respectable power. For example: he put down: 338Hp and 463Ftlbs @ 9 pounds

This article will help to explain it: http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums...28with-pics%29

this shows the port size diffrence: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...n/100_0459.jpg

and this specifically shows the items and things needed for a fuel injected 3400 setup: http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums...l=1#post190989

The M90 S/C idea was one that I've been considering because its cuts the cost of fuel injection and computer management systems and is easily tuned, the only mods are that the top of the supercharger

the stock GTP (which the supercharger comes off of) puts down 202whp
just some simple mods the GTP put down 371whp:
with the S/C I do need to make my own intake manifold, also need to open up the top of the S/C and weld on a carb flange, and seal off the back of the S/C

on top of all this, I'd have something that I guarantee no one else would have, and the satisfaction of "not just building another motor that someone else could" (for lack of better words/terms)

now I know it sounds like a lot but I've been doing some research and I'll explain as the thread goes on. but I wanted to see what all have to say weather it be negative or positive, but non-the less I want to hear everyones ideas/ thoughts/ and opinions.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

First, trying to cut up and modify the M90 like that is going to turn out a disaster, not to mention i'm pretty sure the coating on the rotors doesnt do well with a wet flow setup like a carb.

Second that stuff about the idea that having something "no one else would have" has got to be one of the dumbest, most over repeated, idiotic things to ever hit the internet.

It will get you nothing other than a half finished lots of talk project, and beaten 9.8 times out of 10 by someone who did "what someone else could"

Project: 85 2.8 bird

ok, ignore most of the above post he's been trolling alot lately. a 141 blower might be better and set up for carb already, or get w/ eaton on parts to convert. 3rd gen blower has better internals for m90.

as for doing the work, go for it more r&d on these engines expands the possibilities

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

If by "trolling" you mean providing useful factual information instead of just patting people on the head and telling them to blindly do stupid things, you've got me.

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower-eaton.htm

All Eatons are “dry”, and designed for use with EFI. Draw-through installations, where fuel will be present inside the supercharger, are deprecated by Eaton (and their service agent Magnuson), and are inherently dangerous as a source of explosion. In addition, the fuel will slowly leach lubricant from the bearings, and dissolve the rotor coating used on many models.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The welding on the case is likely to cause warpage, especially someone that doesnt have much of a clue just hacking away at it attempting to change which way it flows.

Again, terrible case of trolling, gotta watch out for that crap apparently logic and facts arent welcome.

Gumby

Seen it done before, works well, thread with pics somewhere.

project89

iTrader: (1)

it wont work first time u weld to that case u will warp it and the rotors will crash into the case spewing metal shavings threw the engine.

the right way to do it is build an adapter for the m90 as been done before.

if u want a real blower setup do what i did and go out and buy a real 4-71 blower and put that on it, it makes the m90 look like it was designed for weed wacker engines

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Keep it civil.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Why carb? As someone said here, "using a carb for injection is like painting a picture with a cup instead of a brush." I figure they're less efficient, and taller, and not designed for the blower, so it's more of a pain to work around with pretty much no upside.

And can we get off the "hybrid"? It's technically not, as it sounds like this engine will be using only gas. This is a Frankenstein.

hybrid 87bird

can you give me more information on this S/C, is this it:
this is useful and I appreciate the input, I have already thought of this and understand what can happen when trying to add fuel to a Dry flow Supercharger.

The main reason I was considering a M90 rather than any aftermarket, is because of the cost, I can pick one up for $125 and rebuild it for around $75, plus they are readily available. From what I've found I can't do that with any other supercharger. Then you add in the cost of a Carb (450-500cfm) for about $350 + - and its far cheaper than having to invest in a tunable fuel injection system and larger injectors plus other electronic items that aren't cheap.

Ok, I didn't mention that I do have access to a machine shop, now with this being said, I can mill out (rather than "hack") the top of the M90. At this same machine shop are very experienced and skilled welders, who i can have weld a carb flange to the top of the S/C.

Carb because there is less hassle than fuel injection, I'm not worried about it being the most efficent engine on the planet.

By taking a 3.4 RWD bottom end and putting 3400 heads from a FWD on it, makes it a hybrid.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

"Hybrid" 60v6's have been called the same since like the late 80's when guys were putting gen 2 heads on gen 1 blocks with mechanical fuel injection for marine use.. lol


Cool build but i agree, ditch the carb and at least go TBI so you have some tuning ability.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

take a look at www.fageolsuperchargers.com they have an s-10 kit for the 2.8

hybrid 87bird

Somethings wrong with the link

Gumby

Had a NOS fagoel supercharger kit and sold it, looks like a toy in person, would be good for a motorcycle.

here is the one I was thiking of but the links are now dead, ill try and dig up the pics, the guy made a nice adapter and ran a carb on a 2.8 in some tiny euro crap box that weighed like 1500lbs

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...usly-jump.html

---OT kinda, this was always my idea if I ever got around to it, side mount one to keep the MPFI on a 2.8 . https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...0-install.html ---------

http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/...rawl%20020.JPG
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/...rawl%20021.JPG
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/...rawl%20022.JPG
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/...rawl%20023.JPG
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/...rawl%20024.JPG

Project: 85 2.8 bird

link fixed also http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f11/2-...harger-472074/

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Upgraded injectors can be had for around $300 or less depending on the size (3800SC injectors should fit a 3400 top end) and you can run it on a cheap 7730 ECM and the wiring should be pretty similar to the 2.8's wiring. A 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor costs around $40 + shipping or less from rock auto. In the end it might cost more but it wouldn't involve possibly hacking up a supercharger and then finding out that it won't work.

The chip emulator to tune the 7730 is probably where most of the extra cost lies.

Edit to add: I actually wouldn't have a clue how to tune a carbureted engine, but tuning a FI setup is pretty easy and convenient IMO.

Gumby

no one here will support a cobbled up FI system for boost of any kind, you will get little help other then to spend the money on better parts or the default classic, go buy a V8 instead of new speakers.

as if it were so and people would hold your hand though a cheap cobble build and tuning for a novis with boost, I would have done cobbled up a 7730 MPFI system for my Buick V8. Instead of dreaming about having a extra $2000 laying around to buy an auto tune holley TBI system that can handle nos/boost.

Gumby

99% sure this is the same car, he changed it to the holley 450 in the pics up higher as it was easier to tune.

http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/Engbay.jpg
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/blowercarb.jpg
http://thirdgenchat.org/blown%2060*/blownArrow.jpg

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I did a 7730 swap in my Fiero. It was very simple and the wiring and repinning only took a few hours. No one helped me, I simply followed the ample documentation on the swap. I've now been driving the car for 20,000 kms since then. I was able to borrow the chip emulator for tuning. I had never tuned a 7730 before but it was easy to learn. Admittedly, I'm not boosting the engine, but I will be running the same code to tune my 3500t swap in progress.

It may seem like a big formidable task at first, but it really doesn't take much time to learn. There are a few different codes that can be used to tune a boosted setup on a 7730, like code59, 8F, and, the one I'm using right now, nAst1 (modified A1)

hybrid 87bird

A carb is very easily tuned.

This is basically what I was going to do, I want to S/C my fresh 2.8 and then reuse the S/C for my hybrid 3.4 setup. so in a sense taking it in stages, so as to make it a bit more simpler.

sorry but $2500 is way out of my budget. For that kind of money I could build a 350.

That's a good idea, but what kind of carb is that? A motorcycle side draft? Also if I went with a setup like this, I'd need a high flowing pair or possibly set of four of some crotch rocket. From what I know about motorcycle carbs is that they are not cheap. especially if there is more than one. Never mind the hassle of throttle linkage and fuel lines.


In comparison: I'd spend $450 plus a chip emulator and misc if I went FI, While I'd spend $550 for the carb setup plus misc.

With that said, I still can't boost the motor with the 7730, if i could I'd be looking into more money in a special or custom tune. Who's to say latter down the road I want to try more boost?, if so I can't use the same tune, so another expense. Where as I can tune a carb easily and I'm set. With no extra cost and it can handle boost, its in a sense "expandable", if you will.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Like I mentioned, a 7730 will handle boost with the right tune and a 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor. 8F is a stock code used to run the 3.1L turbo engine, and will handle up to 14.5 psi of boost (2-bar map sensor). 59 is a modified 58 and has an auto tune feature and handles a 3-bar MAP sensor (29 psi of boost). nAst1 will handle a 2 or 3-bar map sensor and can be tuned for revving up to 8000 or maybe even more. The 7730 doesn't need to be modified at all for boost, rather you just need a chip emulator. There are GM 2 and 3 bar MAP sensors that plug right into a stock 1-bar plug and location. For a 3 bar just get a stock sensor for an 89 TTA and for a 2-bar just get one for a stock Turbo Grand Prix.

Once you have an emulator it's fairly easy to modify the tune. If you teach yourself to tune a FI setup (easy to learn IMO), there's zero cost after the emulator and ALDL cable purchase. A wideband O2 should be used but I would be surprised if you wouldn't buy one for a carb setup as well.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

'7730 can very easily be used with a forced induction system, many different codes will run on it and more reliably, with better throttle response than ANY carb you use.

If you have a laptop with a serial port you can be tuning the GM ECM for less than $100, not real time, but programming EEPROMs, best (IMO) is to use an emulator, speeds up tuning time by a large factor.

project89

iTrader: (1)

hey six u gave me the links to modify the 7730 or 747 for low-z injectors but the parts are outdated and discontinued u wouldnt happen to know what the new part number or anything is would ya?

ive got a project i want to try out 59$ with , i need to drive 6 low -z injectors

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

What are the current part numbers ?

project89

iTrader: (1)

ill have to get on my other laptop to grab them i dont have the links saved on this computer.

ill hop on the other one in a lil bit and grab them

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres the page six sent me

http://home.comcast.net/~p-928/749mods.html

and i need to know what replaces these
Fairchild Semiconductor HUFA76429P3 hexfets

thanks

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Sure.. but nothing even remotely close to fuel injection.


Mars's car is almost in the 10's with a boosted 3500 running on a '7730.

hybrid 87bird

Ok so I was miss informed, learn something new everyday. But yet I still don't see the simplicity in the fuel injection. There is a lot of time taking the car apart to wire it and the time to tune it. With the carb setup It'll take me a weekend to do the install and tune.

I didn't mention that this is my daily driver and my only vehicle, this also is a factor. I have an entire 2.8 top end (heads on up) siting around, so i don't have to pull mine apart to do the mock up, just simply popping the hood to take some measurements.

I still see the carb method being more simplistic and easy. I'm not totally putting it out of the question yet, but I'm still not convinced its the best way to go.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Just adding that EFI tuning isnt that hard and is simpler then you think. I run $59 on my car with the 7730 and it works great for boost.

If you ever decide to go that route sixshooter is you guy for help wit $59. Guy know it very well, better then I could ever hope.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

All the more reason to go EFI...

The thing about carbs is that you may THINK that it's quick and easy to tune, but then you usually have to re-tune when the weather changes, or barometric pressure takes a drastic change (also related to weather), or seasons change, etc.

EFI can help compensate even early on, when the tune isn't perfect, though you would need to keep boost low, early on, just like you would with a carb, and check for proper fueling, and spark, etc.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...i%2f47nKThI%3d

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I'd just like to add that although I haven't made a V6 7730 harness for a 3rd-gen, I would expect the F-body 2.8MPFI harness to be similar to the Fiero's 2.8MPFI harness. Repinning the ECM connectors took about an hour or so with me being very careful to make sure everything was perfect. There is actually a guide available on gmtuners.com I think which tells you which pins go where. If using the 3400 throttle body the pigtails for the IAC and TPS are different, but they have the same wires and you just need to change the pigtail connectors. Also you may need to add a knock sensor, in which case the fan switch pigtail (not used with a 7730) will plug into a knock sensor (grab one from a 2.8 or 3.1L J-body would be my advice). A 3-wire CTS would be ideal as well, that way you can simply use one temp sensor for gauge and computer. With a 7730, the fan is switched on by the computer and during tuning you can specify whatever temperature to turn the fan on. There is also no cold start injector necessary.

I'm not sure of the details but IIRC swapping an aluminum head 3x00 top end onto a 2.8L iron head bottom end will result in high compression. You may need to swap 3.1L aluminum head pistons into the engine to make the compression ratio boost-friendly.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

90-92 V6's use the 7730 as well, wouldnt be very hard at all to get a 90-92 harness (for practically nothing) and then convert it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks man

hybrid 87bird

In Florida there really isn't much of a weather change, there's no such thing as four seasons, we've only got two...hot and cold.

more info on the wiring, if you will. also whats needed.

First what i planned on doing was to mock up and build the supercharger setup for my 2.8, its got 2,500 - 3,000 miles on it so I'm just going to use it for awhile. On the side I'm going to build the 3.4 S/C setup.

If I take the 3.4 and put the 3500 heads and intake on it, I come up with something close to a 8.9:1 compression ratio, which isn't to bad for a boosted motor.


I've seen a couple in the junkyard, probably be able to grab harness and ECM for cheap.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's enough to need seasonal adjustments.



You're doing your math wrong, even with the "larger" chamber of the 3500 heads (larger than the 3400 heads), you will be in double digit SCR. The 3500 combustion chambers are smaller than those on the RWD 3.4.

Looking at a thread on another forum, that I found while looking for actual combustion chamber sizes, Forced Firebird stated that using 3500 heads on a RWD 3.4 would yield and SCR of 11.56:1.
http://www.v6f-body.com/archive/index.php/t-15.html

Do it, even if you don't use it/them right away, you will have them to use at anytime.

hybrid 87bird

True, but every six months (give or take)? Not a big deal, besides thats a time in which you should just go over your car anyway, just to check brakes, grease suspension, etc.

I didn't do the math, just going off someone elses. I read in another forum, can't find the link, (gotta go through my bookmarks). In that thread your supposed to use 3400 pistons in the 3.4 to allow valve clearance and to lower compression. If you go N/A then the 3400 top end is fine, but to go boosted the 3500 top end helps with the compression. Also read that you need to gain about 2cc in each of the cylinders via taking a little material from them and polishing it to a mirror shine.

Yeah, i will as soon as I have the time to, starting this Friday, I'll be working on a friends 1971 Monte Carlo with my Father, going to put and entire interior in it as well as a sound system. Only going to have it for about 8 days, so it'll recive most of the attention. I did notice that the local yard doesn't have much for 3rd gen F-bodys:

http://www.acepickapart.com/locator....T&model=CAMARO and http://www.acepickapart.com/locator.php?make=PONTIAC&model=FIREBIRD

The wiring harness and ECM should be in the 91 - 92 3.1 V6's right? Anything distinct about it so as to save time looking? It is a 50 + acre yard.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

All of this sillyness, why not just spend a day at the junkyard, grab a L67 shortblock, computer, and injectors, a 4th gen set of heads and intake manifold, and spend the effort making mounts and a set of turbo manifolds.

Or the same but get the L67 manifold, and put an MP112 on it.


????

ericjon262

either that or go turbocharged on the 60* motor. hell of alot easier than a roots blower...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

That is indeed a better choice than the eaton, but I just dont get it, you can get all of the 3800 stuff at a local U pull it for nearly nothing, have a LOT more displacement, an ecu with a tune that will support some boost properly off the bat, 36#/hr injectors to start with, and a bottom end built for boost. While still keeping the "i want to say its a V6" sillyness.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Because the 60* is more efficient and won't need extra work (custom mounts or very rare mounts) to fit in a 3rd gen chassis.

ECM is a non issue, many ECMs can be used on the 60* and read boost.

Injectors can be swapped between many applications, to gt proper fueling.

I don't know who considers 400 cc to be a "LOT" more displacement, especially when the engine on paper is less efficient, per the displacement.

60* parts will cost as little as 3800 parts, and on the wreckers note, are MUCH more plentiful than the 3800, especially where an SC'd 3800 is considered.

hybrid 87bird

I'm not interested in turbocharging, Too much expense/time in piping and turbo's and building manifolds.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

wont need extra work...

Indeed there is only all of this "extra work" to hybrid a top end together, hybrid a computer, hybrid a tune, etc

The couple of hours fabricating a set of mounts will be far surpassed by other headaches. The benefit of being able to use the already programmed for boost and larger injectors ECM of the L67 being one of them.

As to the efficiency, if you want to claim there is that much efficiency to overcome the displacement difference, i'll suppose its possible, but the 3.4 in the 4th gen rated for what 160/200 ft lbs, to the 3800's 200 HP 230 ft lbs, says otherwise.

Yes, be used on the computer, we all know this, this is nothing new, you can hack something together, and the slowly work on getting a tune together, however there is a lot of benefit and peace of mind in grabbing a pcm that gm designed and tuned for the application and being able to use it without any other fooling around. It is also more up to date than using pieced together 80's ECU's

Yes we all know this, again you are back to stuff that can be worked on to work, i'm referring to something that will already work with the L67 ECU's tune, and for someone who's considering going with a carb because he doesnt have the experience and know how right now to start messing with every aspect at once, the matching tune/injector package is a good choice.

What are you going on here for this supposed "efficient" thing, generally the only time that comes up is people who dont have a logical comparison going on, and then go back to HP/L as some sort of reference.

To add to that, the 3800 makes more HP/L in the 4th gen camaro/ firebird than the 3.4

Any day of the week I can go to the junkyard and grab everything i've mentioned, same price 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 or 3800, and the stuff is there always.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Wait, so routing a few tubes is too much expense/time... but trying to weld up some cobbled together supercharger, thats going to need even more time, and money, to be less efficient, and less versatile, and also need a lot of expense/time into making a working pulley setup to drive it, is better ?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

3800II mounts are relativeley easy, https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...-brackets.html positiones engine in place, cut carboard to rough it, mocked up some particle board and rechecked position, then took final model to welder.

hybrid 87bird

Too much time as in I don't have time to pull my engine apart and mock it up (to pipe a turbo, I need to mock it up in the bay) (It's my DD) As stated earlier, I have an entire 2.8 top end (from heads on up) I can use to mock all of the supercharger intake manifold, and supercharger. the intake manifold is going to be milled out of billet aluminum, and the supercharger will be milled rather than "hacked", It's actually thought out and going to be machined. The flange to be welded on the top of the supercharger is the only item to modified.

There is hardly any money involved with the supercharger setup if i go carb. A turbo is expensive even from the junk yard (in comparison to the S/C) and to buy turbo piping which really can't be had from the Junk yard, is extremely expensive never mind the fact that I don't know what kind of shape the turbo is in, and would have to rebuild it. Plus BOV, and other misc turbo parts and pieces. That aren't cheap. Right now Turbocharging things are all the rage, that makes the parts expensive. I don't see how it would need more time, when everything can be made and mocked up outside the vehicle (this is my DD). There is now way i see more expense in S/C it compared to Turbocharging it. How is It "Less" efficient, The power is instant. What about is Less efficient? There's nothing difficult about making the pulley drive. The supercharger is made for a V6 so length isn't a problem, all i need to do is line up the pulley with the serpentine system, then measure the belt length and go to the local auto parts store to get the belt, put it on and done.

I'm also going to make it a point now, because apparently it matters. I'm not looking for 500whp, If I could get 200-250whp at most Id be happy, right now I'm probably at 100whp, and its aggravating, I just want something that can get out of its own way, and a little more. Thats it.

In this situation, why would the turbo be better?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Turbochargers are more efficient ( think airflow vs heated air) than the eaton. There is also no parasitic loss from the crankshaft driving it, and the ability to run an intercooler without anywhere near the amount of things needed to do it with an eaton.

As far as making the manifolds, if you are getting an engine from the junkyard anyway (the 3.4 you mentioned) then you shouldnt have much trouble fabricating a turbo setup on an engine stand, the thirdgen engine bay isnt exactly that tight with a V6, and with just a few measurements you should be able to get enough of it together that you can get it close enough to drivable that you wont spend much time finishing it up installed.

As far as "just line up the pulley with the serpentine" that likely isnt going to go as well as you think, there is a reason the supercharger on the 3800 has a seperate belt, and tensioner. If you try to just do it that way you're probably going to end up with lots of belt slip, damaging belts, etc. Also there is no such things as "made for a V6 length" that just shows the lack of real information you have on the subject. The M90 has a long snout and if you are going to line it up with the existing serpentine belt its going to be quite a ways back on the engine.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

About the same work as the top end swap you propose for the 3800, so that is a wash.

False, the tuning can be done rather quickly, it just depends on how picky you want to be, for me, I'd have as much time tuning the stock ECM for the 3800 as I would using a '7730/49 and $59, because even if I were to leave a 3800 stock, I would not be happy with the stock tune. On the flip side, I did drive my turbo hybrid with a less than optimal stock tune for a TGP for a couple years, before I was into tuning, so even if it's not tuned for the specific application, it will still work well. The worst part about my use of the stock tune was that it was for an automatic application (TGPs were only available in auto) and I was using it with a manual transmission, so it would have some idle issues every now and then. If there was a manual TGP bin, it would have been a non issue.

You need to compare what we are going to end up with the end, look at the 3400 and the 3800, since the proposed engine in this thread is a 3400, using a RWD 3.4 block, the other difference here, might be an increase in compression ratio, with in this case will only raise the power over what a 3400 would have, all else being equal. Bone stock N/A 3400s have been known to put out 200+ HP, after some tuning, closer to 215 to 220 HP, add in boost and many are well over 300, some hitting close to 400 HP. 3800s on the other hand usually make less HP N/A, until you get to the Series 3 or whatever they are being called, where the power output is about on par with a stock 3400, boosted, usually make 220 HP to 275 HP, depending on which series you start with, up the boost a bit and most get around 325 to 350, Hmm, about the same power (In many cases less) than the 3400, N/A or boosted, requiring more displacement to match the 3400's numbers, you do know the definition of efficiency, right?



There is no "hacking together" of a computer, or a tune. As I eluded to, there already was a turbo 60* V6, in the TGP, it was a generation 2, 3.1L turbo. The code is less than optimal, but it works, especially when used with an automatic trans, for manual trans I would use $58 or better yet $59. $58 was used to run turbo 2.0L I4s, N/A 2.3L I4s and turbo 4.3L V6s, it's very adaptable.
While on the subject of adapting ECMs, the 3800 ECM could be used with a 60*, but, would likely require more work (hardware wise) to make it work, due to the way the 3800 ignition system is. I do have a 3800 ICM to play with, and it may play nicely with the '7730/49/27 code, but I haven't been able to verify through testing yet.


People that try to dispute this, generally have no valid argument to go, efficiency is what EVERYONE who wants more power is looking for, without increasing efficiency, there is no increase in power, so it's the basic ingredient of any performance engine build, to say otherwise is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

That's great for you, but I know many have wrecking yards that have similar stock to me, scarce 3800s, especially super charged versions, but more 60*s than you could ever want, including the 3500 now, which is the top end of choice when you have the bore of the 3.4, due to its increased flow over even the late 3400's top end.

This discussion has been happening for years. contrary to the belief of many, the 3800 is not the "great" engine people would be lead to believe, it fit a market segment, and was quickly shown to be inferior to many other engines produced during the same time frame. The only reason that GM made a series 3 is because consumers were still under the misinformed idea that "larger is better" and demand was there to keep a 3.8L displaced engine in the mix, even though the smaller, lighter and more efficient 60* was already around and had been more developed.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Turbochargers are just way more efficient than superchargers, especially when compared to screw or rotor type superchargers. Granted the superchargers used on the 3.8 (both GM and Ford) are much more efficient than the true roots style blower, they are still no where near as efficient as a centrifugal supercharger and the turbocharger is still more efficient yet. Turbochargers are not "free" HP as many claim, there is still some parasitic HP "loss" due to the restriction being placed in the exhaust stream, but that restriction is also part of what makes the turbocharger work.

The other thing I really like a bout a turbocharger, especially when it comes to a DD, is that since the parasitic loss is low, the fuel economy will only take a very small hit, when compared to an N/A version, driven similarly, as in not spirited, obviously a forced induction engine will use more fuel once the intake becomes pressurized over an N/A engine, that part should really go without saying. The supercharged engine will have more mechanical parasitic drag on it, creating a larger hit to fuel economy. Granted, the differences will usually be pretty small, but the differences become much larger over time, and with how the price of fuels are going, this is something I tend to greatly consider when trying to decide on just how I want to proceed with a project.

You could likely reach your power goal with forced induction. I know Dave (Deathstar..) had made over 200HP N/A with his 3400 a few years ago in his Cavalier, IIRC he had a different cam, and he spent some time tuning it.

My Untuned turbo 3.2L made 219 WHP and 260 WFT/lbs (about 250 CHP and 310 CFT/lbs). If I had proper sized injectors (which were my major limiting factor) and a better tune, I know I could have been much closer to 300 WHP and over 300 WFT/lbs, but that was many years ago, before tuning was as well documented as it is now, and many less tools than there are now. If I had optimized that build, that would have included a better choice of turbo, and and better intercooler system, I could have gotten well over 300 WHP. The turbo I chose was off a turbo 2.3L, since they were known to work on engines up to 250 HP and that was all I was looking for at the time. It was plenty of fun.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Exactly what I was saying, good to see you understand now.

So, you are saying that someone who doesnt even want to touch efi because of a lack of experience it whatsoever, should start putting toghther a setup from a bunch of pieces, and/or run a less than reasonably good tune, rather than getting a good experience with EFI by using a known good solid setup ?


So you want to hack and hybrid a bunch of stuff together then claim its more efficient than what a stock 3800 ?

Show me two side by side setups, same turbo, same cam specs same intercooler, with a 60* setup making more power than a 3800, highly unlikely.

No, everything isnt about peak "efficiency" my old engine made 250 whp with 2.0L, my new engine 350whp with 6.0L, I more than tripled displacement, i gained 100 whp, but it in the end with the same fuel mileage, who cares which makes more "hp/l" ?

What counts:

HP
Torque
MPG
Engine weight
External size

What equates to squat:
HP/L
Number of cylinders.


Yes indeed no "hacking together", i'm sorry lets call it letting a person inexperienced in this sort of thing get a bad taste of EFI because he's got to play games of what code to run, what definition file, etc.

Yes anything can be made to work with anything, indeed, again i'm talking about what would be good for the OP, not what you can put together with enough time.


See above list of what matters and what doesnt. Keep patting yourself on the back with HP/L its not going to get you much.

Yes there is increase in power without increase in "efficiency" its called use a setup that is larger and makes more power, you'll say its "less efficient" because its makes less HP/L, but you'll likely still get beat by the "less efficient" setup.


Thats great, he's in FL, the OP is what i'm referring to and whats going to be good for him, he has access to the same yards I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine

Yes indeed, confused consumers

The 3800 Series II was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 1995 through 1997.


This 3800 weighs only 22 lb (10.0 kg) more than the all-aluminum High Feature V6 that currently dominates GM's six-cylinder applications, despite being an all cast-iron design.

Yeah man, terribly inefficient, terrible, boat anchor weight engine here.