There is one guy around here running 9 psi in his Fiero 2.8 (stock). He ran 6 psi through it for 3 years before getting larger injectors and upping the boost. (From a supra turbo)

 

Yes, but that Fiero WAS stock. It didn't have aluminum heads with chambers HALF the size of the iron head chambers (28.6cc aluminum vs 48cc iron).

:edit: Scratch that... The scan showing the 2.8 FWD pistons on 60degreeV6 shows that they're dished. You could potentially pick up a set cheap and have them pressed onto your existing connecting rods, but you might as well pick up a 3.4 if you're going to do that.

 

So in theory, If I boost it 3-5 psi to be safe, she should hold up, just fine?

From what I've heard the bottom end is pretty stout. Plus my motor is brand new so.....in theory it would work?

 

IF you keep the 2.8 stock. Once the hybrid heads go on, it's a whole other ball game.

 

I also didn't mention I would be using my stock heads (just ported and polished, with matching lower intake)

But if I went with the 3400 heads and lower intake, then my compression would be off the chart, for a boosted motor. Right?

 

Beat me to it, alright, the stock 2.8 will be just fine then. Anyone have any hp estimates? Just curios as to what everyone thinks.

Soon I'm going to get started on the heads and lower intake. Just gotta get past the busy work week.

 

If that's the case, check out BL85's posts... He has done some crazy stuff to his V6 to TRY to get it to blow up, and failed. The engine was stock.

But, yes, once you go hybrid, the 2.8 pistons (as installed) go. Let's just say this. My dyno sim currently lists me at about 12:1 with 3100 heads (same chamber size) and 12cc 3.1 pistons and stroke. With a 2.8 piston and stroke, it spits out an error. Basically, the compression calculator goes up to about either 16 or 18:1 (I forgot, I haven't run that program in months as it's on another hard drive), and it even says that the 2.8 hybrid compression is out of limits of the calculator.

:edit: And, if everything is good, your cam and valvetrain will fail long before the crank does. The bottom end is supposedly good to about 7000... Most cams I've seen listed top out in the 6500 range. And I wouldn't push it without solid lifters.

 

3-4 psi isnt much boost and youd be hard pressed to find a good turbo that is matched up for boost that low. Get alky injection and your safe for the detination as long as your compressing isnt off the charts or rediculusly high(10.0+) If so youll have detination issues im willing to bet. Im not saying that higher compression wont work, im just saying the lower the better for boost. Really you want under 9:0. But again these engines can take a beating so if you have it under control as for intake temps you can boost that thing and run some high Compression. I just wouldnt if it was me.

EDIT: your wrote in theroy is 3-5 psi safe?? Well yes but are you going to do some tuning? Its worth it. Its not the boost that will kill your engine, its the tuning which usually results to detintation issues that kill the engine. Believe me I know. I broke a piston ring and cracked a ring land all while traping a 107Mph pass a few months ago. One hickup and there she goes. PSI is just resistance it doesnt equal air flow or lbs/min.

Yes the bottom end is stout IMO from what Ive put mine through. Its been to 6k+ many times and no issues although I dont like to do it, the car just sounds so good...lmfao

 

u can boost the stock 2.8 to whatever u want just tune it right.

u will max out that m90 long before u are in danger of hurting the engine
and i still stand by my post that an m90 is to small for a 2.8/3.1/3.4

the turbo fastedi started out with moves more air then a m90 and he maxed it out in a matter of weeks

 

Just relized he was talking about supercharger boost.. opps. I gotta remember what was at the begining of the thread. Sorry about the whole turbo thing.

 

The Fiero guy estimated around 200hp at 6 psi. It's never been dynoed afaik, but I've seen the car run at autoX and that seems a reasonable estimate. IMO I'd rather have 200 hp n/a than boosted; easily achieved with a full 3500 swap.

 

Dont be scared of boost. Either way learning how to tune it will be good for a N/A build or a boosted build. I had some issues but it was part of the learning process i suppose. I would bet that I was pushing 300hp and who knows how much Tq with a tiny turbo@12psi of boost.

 

2.8 with the stock 0cc piston, .0260 deck clearance, gen 3 head with .040 head gaskets is 12.89:1 with .066 of quench.

Switch that to the FWD 2.8 pistons with .040 head gaskets and you're down to 8.94:1

 

Ok, so I'm safe in the boost aspect. Good

I still don't understand the "maxing out" aspect. The supercharger was put on a 3.8 V6, My 2.8 has 1L less. Plus the S/C is designed for engines 3-5 Liters. My 2.8 is close enough.

"The Eaton Supercharger Model 90 is designed for 3.0L to 5.0L passenger car and light truck engines, but may also be suitable for other engine sizes, depending on total system performance requirements. "

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsS...ers/PCT_221790

The whole reason I'm going with the M90 is because of cost. But i do respect a N/A motor making the same power as boosted one.

Something to think about:

"In crude terms, the supercharger’s minimum capacity should be engine displacement ÷ 2 if their relative speed is unity (1:1). If the supercharger is smaller it must turn faster, and conversely if larger may turn slower. Volumetric efficiency lower than 100 reduces the pumping requirement, of course.

E.g., an M90 supplying 90” to a 180” engine at 1:1 will (in theory) develop 1 bar (only atmospheric pressure, no boost), since the supercharger output is about the same as the engine's input. If the supercharger were turning 2:1 (or the engine were 90”) you would get 2 bar (boost = atmospheric pressure, 14.7 psi at 0 elevation) etc. 10 psi is about .68 bar, so to supply a 3.8 liter engine (231”) at 10 psi an M90 would be turning about 2.1:1."

http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-eaton.htm


So...are you talking about putting the 3500 heads on the 2.8? If so then The numbers sound right but with the stock 2.8 RWD iron heads the compression ratio is 8.9:1.

For instance (scroll to third picture): http://www.s10planet.com/forum/showt...=6306#post6306

 

First look at the supercoupes (M90 on a ford 3.8L) hp specs. About 210 Hp IIRC and about 300 Tq. That not much in my mind. Also if you've ever rode in one you'll notice that they dont rev out very good at all. Im not sure if its the engine set up or just the factory designing it for low rpm power.

There are alot of things to take into consideration for sizing a boosted application. Mainly how many CFM your car will need to make a xxx amount of HP that your looking for. Also How efficient is that supercharger at the amount of boost it will put out compared to what your engines(you) are going to want.

There is volumetric effiency, BFC, intake temps, Rpms, Cubic inches. Just to start on the math problem.

Im just thinking why do all the designing on a intake plate and the other work involved if your only going to support 210-240Hp at the very very max. Thats nothing for a boosted 60* engine.

Just my 2 cents though. Because I really do like the info on this build thread.

 

An M90 maxed out on a 2.8 ?


RIiiiiiIiiIIiiight.

 

the eaton will move aproxitmatly 42lbs of air under the most ideal conditions i.e intercooling
undfer not so ideal conditions it will move around 32 pounds of air much less then the t04b u can max out on a 2.8 engine

 

Sure you CAN max one out, however at that flow level, it will do something in the range of 350HP.

Its not just going to be maxed out pushing 7psi into the engine.

 

noone ever leaves the boost low specially when they knoo they are in no danger of breaking the engine.

boost is adictive and frankly the end result with a hybrid turbo @7 psi vs the m90 at 7psi the turbo will make better power

im all for doing a roots style setup but the way the op wants to do it is not cost effective for what he will get out of it. and who knows what will happen once he mills the top out of the case to mount a carb . for all we know the thing could ruin the blowers flow.

the blower was never designed to take air from the top like like that

a turbo setup is cheap, very cheap go grab a junkyard t3 turbo or buy an ebay 118$ special like fastedi did modify the y pipe and stoick the maf sensor on the inlet of the turbo and u are done.

opps i forgot the 305 tpi injectors, the stock 2.8 ecm will run this combo just fine to 7/8 psi with ported heads and cam , and upto around 14 psi with stock heads and cam with no tunning needed to be done


the 2.8 is the simplest to turbocharge to a point as the factory ecm/tune will handle x amount of boost

u could piece together the whole system for around 300 bucks

 

heres logs from my 2.8 with no tuning done relying on the maf for fueling and timing

cruising around

wot pull


and from a roll


its not perfect but it works well and is a very cheap way to get more power out of a 2.8 for very cheap

eventually i added a rising rate fpr to run more boost but eventually scraped it all to switch to a standalone ems

 

3100/3400 heads, 3500 heads won't work with the smaller bore.



I was talking about putting the 2.8 FWD dished pistons in the engine with the gen 3 heads, that brings the compression down to 8.94:1.

 

WOW, there is a BAD information in that link.

It is NOT impossible to get greater than 100% VE from a naturally aspirated engine. Race engines are built on the principal of being able to achieve this, and is done frequently.

EGR Does NOT "effectively reduce the displacement" of your engine, displacement can not change by the addition or subtraction of gases, what does change is efficiency and rejection of pinging. The point where you care about getting as much power out of your engine, the EGR is not functioning, or rather, it is NOT passing exhaust gases into the intake tract. That point is WOT, and the EGR will be closed at that point. Anything less than WOT, you don't need max power, you need more power, open the throttle, anything less than WOT is an indication that max power is not needed, and rejection of ping and reduction of NoX is desired. Leave the EGR in place and enjoy better fuel efficiency, a cooler running engine, and less susceptible to ping.

I can't believe after all of these years people will still post the same wrong information.

 

curious were the hell was that said?

 

I already know this, this has already been stated in the thread, my issue is that you want to state that the M90 is "too small" it is only "too small" if your goal is above the power that it is capable of producing, the OP doesnt seem to want 400RWHP, using a larger supercharger for something in the range of the M90's output, will just take more power to make.


I already said something to that effect at the very beginning of the thread, sometimes people just cant be helped.

Speak for yourself on that, i'd soak my car in gasoline and set it on fire before running china knockoff junk, and would have to assume people that support such parts would also gladly buy their mothers stolen camera from a local crackhead in order to save a few dollars.


The examples you've posted seem to have pretty poor a/f ratios in boost, definetly not something i'd want to bolt onto something I expect to get me to work in the morning.

However you dont have to sell me on the turbo is a far better idea than the supercharger idea, but of course keep in mind you usually cant see that a V8 would be a better route to go, so why try so hard to push him to not use the supercharger ?

 

the afrs are just fine i tune mine for about 12.0 afr under boost for best safe power with the megasquirt( best power is actually made around 12.3-12.5afr but its pushing it a lil bit) its not to lean. with the stock ecm and maf it will run around 11.7-12.0 afrs. i daily drove that car like that for years before i swaped to the megasquirt ecm and never once did i hurt the engine. and if u watch some of my old videos i beat the hell out of that car on a daily basis.

the only downside is it will idle and run at very light throttle a tad bit rich


thats why i mentioned a junkyard turbo i know not everyone is willing to buy a chinesse made turbo

lol now thats funny as i own a twin turbo iroc that would beat any v6 combo wether it be a 3.4 iron head with a turbo or 3900 with a turbo etc etc

cause with his plans of the m90 its just not a good idea or very cost effective. now if he did it the right way id be all for it

 

I was mainly talking about the point where you say it was WOT 2nd gear and i'm seeing what looks like 15.2:1

At any rate I think the M90 could be done and work good, however not how he's got planned.

I'd like to see one upside down in the 2.8/3.1 LIM, then a plenum to connect the outlet to the runners.

Of course this all still wouldnt have a good belt drive setup, and would be a lot more work than as already pointed out just plumbing a turbo.

A used holset a day of work, and then start acquiring parts for some bigger injectors and better tuning hardware/software is definetly the best choice.

 

Also, anyones setup that "maxed it out quickly" as you mentioned about the T04, was improperly sized in the first place, if it were sized appropriately for the application, it almost doesnt matter 5 psi or 20, its generally right, or going to be very close.

 

It might have been said but would what would i have to do to turbo a fuel injected car, diffrent injectors computer chip ext.

 

The s10planet.com link that was posted. For some reason I thought it was posted later originally in the thread, otherwise I would have quoted it in my post.

 

were u see it n the 15's was cruising the arrow on the log indicates were i went wot and u can see the afrs drop as the turbo spooled up.

the problem with that setup is that ae is very rich and will cause a bog at low engine speed and slightly delayed spoolup

like i said its not perfect but its a close to perfect as u will get with the stock tune. it works dam well for a super cheap turbo build and u can upgrade down the road

holset he351 would be a really nice turbo to start with just modify the variable vanes to lock them into one position if ur a newb to them or u can use a wastegate actuator to make them moveable to have super fast spool and great top end flow.

problem is ppl are starting to relize holsets are good turbos and are starting to charge an arm and leg for used ones

grand nationial turbo is also a cheap good turbo to start with


my whole point was the t04 flows more then the m90 depending on the model and if its easy to max one of those out why bother with an m90

few of us guys have been there and said i only want about 200-250 hp and actually ment it at the time but u quickly get bored with that and befor eu know it it snowballs and u end up needing to upgrade the turbo or blower to get more.

we know what the engines capable of so put somethingon it that u wont outgrow to start with and be done with it

 

Yea my turbo was undersized if your talking about my first turbo build. But really only when I was pushing high boost. When I was at 9 psi it was sized right as I never had hopes to go as fast as I did. Alky injection, tuning, and large fuel injectors changed all of that. Now I've got a better turbo and it's much better sized for my application. Gt3582

Sorry but eBay is my friend and there turbos are great in my mind weather there knockoffs or whatever. I'm part of a local union and love u.s stuff but there's no way I can justify paying 1k for a turbo when I still don't know what I'm doing...lmfao

 

lmao im making up for all the china turbos ive bought an installed now, i just spent close to 5k on a block and crankshaft for my iroc. by the time i get my rods and pistons ill have around 7-8k in the bottom end spent on american stuff.

i think that makes up for the 12 or so china turbos ive bought and or installed for ppl

 

hmm u rpost got lost in all the bickering, it depends on ur goals u should read the 2 turbo stickeys on the top of the forum, then start a whole new thread if u still have questions

 

Buying other "us made" stuff doesnt make up for anything.

The china crap you bought was knocked off of US or Japanese designs, R&D etc, any way you cut it, buying that junk is bad for the hobby, you think companys want to keep pumping money and time into R&D to bring you faster spooling, more efficient turbos, or other parts, when you dont give a crap about their work being stolen, and just buy the knockoff cause it fits your budget ?

 

buy a jap burner, a jap tranny, or chinese knockoff turbo...hmmmm

either way its the same, money shoveled by the bucketfull out of this country. politics, not related to the OP

 

honestly i could care less the stuff works and does what its suppossed to do for about 1/4th the cost

that being said i wont be putting those turbos on the new motor it will be getting a pair of either master power 66's or 70's which are also half the cost of american ones, may even go larger if class rules allow it

btw most garrett and other turbo companys have there manufacturing based outside the us anyways so the money still dont stay here

and if u havent noticed the knockoffs have forced other companys to lower there prices making the turbos more affordable and they arent loosing any money. the markup on garrett and precision stuff is huge

im done with the off topic stuff as id hate to be the reason this thread gets closed on the op

 

CrossfireTA (member here) put an Eaton on his brother's small block and ran high 9's with it. Remote mounted, over-clocked and inter-cooled it does better than people think.

 

I guess I can chime in. I blew up 2 motors, the first was a 50$ 3400 that I got from a friend, It made wierd noises from the get-go and had molasses oil. It was in a very neglected minivan and was not by any means an engine I was planning on using for any amount of time. It was more for mockup. I don't even think I "wasted" money on putting Synth. oil in it, I just ran cheap stuff cause I knew it was coming out.

The second engine I blew was a 3500 and as mentioned it spun the cam dowel off. MAY have been caused by not using Loctite and proper torque on the bolt. I'll never know ... ?

It had survived PLENTY of 15 psi jaunts. That was tuned at 11.50 AFR on 91 octane. Never had head gasket issues with it, even using the stock torque to yield bolts and GM gaskets. I'm guessing around 50 1/4 passes and about another twice as many 1/8 mile runs.

As far as "I can make that power in a 2.0L engine with less boost and a smaller turbo" well, yeah that's for sure. This GT4088 was never near maxed out on my setup with the 3.5 and I got kicked off the track after the low 11 run because I have no rollbar. No doubt in my mind that it would of gone faster, and quite a bit faster, I would say mid 10-s wouldn't be pushing it. I was running an 11.50 index class all summer and I knew I only needed about 8 or 9 psi and an off idle launch to get that so I stuck around that number and ran my class. When I turned up the boost for a single run, I got kicked off the track.

So pretty much never had head gasket issues with any of my engines, but you never know maybe the 3.9 will have issues. I will let you guys know next year.

 

The point is that simply one setup is not something to throw all your eggs into a basket over, and that the 3800 has made the power plenty of times, over and over, its a known performer, its going to take a lot more than one car / engine to convince anyone with a brain, that its as good an idea as people would make it out to be.

 

This shouldn't be too hard for you to understand:

If the 3800 was soooo good, then why did GM decide to replace every single one in every platform with either a 3500 or 3900?

The 3800 is dead, dude. Get over it. The GM 60* V6 still lives, and the last Buick-produced engine is dead.

 

it may be dead but it was one of the best mills ever produced, the first buick v6 dates back to 1962. so it survived the test of time and many different platforms.

 

hey, something no ones said yet, why not just do a 350 swap LOL

 

They produced them with forced induction ?


Why is this so hard for you to understand, just because it was a good idea for production vehicles at lower horsepower levels, doesnt make it a better choice for a performance oriented application.

Sweet the 60* "still lives" in a world of emissions restricted MPG regulated crap.

Again, i'm talking performance, and cost here, the 3800 is a good choice, get over it, boo-hoo.

 

We're going on the part where he's in the V6 section, so we'll keep V8 logic out of it, however it seems there isnt much v6 "logic" since production stock vehicles with natural aspiration only are somehow relevant as to which is a better choice for a forced air setup.

 

i just think its funny, you know he clearly stated what he wanted to do, again what HE WANTED TO DO, and you basically told him he was wrong and that he wanted to do what you were going to tell him to do instead, you do that alot its ****ing hilarious, by that alone i figured logic had no bearing in any discussion whatsoever

 

There were actually several valid reasons presented which show carbureting and roots-supercharging a hybrid 60* is not a great idea.

I've also read of head gasket issues with the 3900 but who knows how long they will last with a performance build. Many blame dex-cool for the infamous LIM gasket failures.

Mars isn't the only one with a fast boosted 3500. Over on V6Z24 there's a guy who did an 11.6 in his Z24 and there's a vid on YouTube of it racing a c6 Z06. And there are a lot more turbo 3400s out there.

 

And I have to agree that if you want a roots supercharged v6 why not swap in a stock 3800sc? They do seem to have an incredible reliability record and there's probably more aftermarket for them.

 

Beacuse for the same amount of $$ a V6 can produce the same results if you know what your doing. I really didnt know what I was doing last year....lol

I will add that my 3.1L took a hellof a beating last year. Many passes(100+) yankes down the 1/4 mile before I busted a piston ring. 17psi at the end of the year to make up for my horrible boost lag and trans issues.

These 60* engines can take a beating forsure!

 

*34blazer slaps Z28ricer around a bit with a large trout

TGP had the turbo 3.1.

 

What about the LLT in the New Camaro and Cadillac? It's a 660.