Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

And with all that said, now I want to see one of the alum gmpp 60* blocks resleeved to fit 3900 pistons, and the accompanying top end.

ericjon262

I think this arguement is missing the point that either engine setup will be leaps and bounds more efficient than the boat anchor 2.8.


also, to the OP, the 60* banks are too close together mount the blower low enough to clear the hood. a remote mount would be much easier to package, but gets into the same or more amount of work than to do a turbo setup. see pocket's thread "I should not be left unsupervised"

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...-not-left.html

I still vote turbo, and will continue to vote this way on this thread, it's silly to think you will be able to bolt the blower to a on a milled intake, and even funnier to think it'll fit under the hood.

ericjon262

I think Mars is working on swapping the whole 3900...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure it'll be nice, but after reading a little bit more, I think i'll still do a 3800 much sooner than even considering the other choices.

ericjon262

I know the 3900 heads flow silly good, I forget the numbers, but I think it was in excess of 250 cfm on the intakes.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I was seeing that, nice flow, then came across issues with headgaskets leaking on even factory cars, all this work done to get things to flow great doesnt matter much when you throw 8 lbs at it and cant even keep headgaskets together.

I'd much rather have a 3800 that can keep itself together all day and just run a little more boost.

I've got a 30R sitting around, starting to think maybe I should find a cheap thirdgen and make a trip to the U pull it for some fun

ericjon262

how about a 35R, and a fiero!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Stopped wanting a fiero a while ago, and a 30R is all I have laying around, it'll have to do

ericjon262

fair enough, I never really wanted it, until I had it, but that's a long story anyways... </de-rail>

ericjon262

on another note, where are you seeing this? I just did a google search and didn't come up with anything.

34blazer

8lbs and it wont stay together?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/6...w-pb-3-5l.html

complete build thread, from turbo 3400, to 3900 in progress. ben from WOTTECH might know actual flow #'ers, or joseph upson

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/also...start,390.html

and thats m-u-ll-e-t

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

http://www.w-body.com/showthread.php...alk-About-Them

downplaying head gasket leaks, gm service issues with them, this stuff usually doesnt pop up for nothing.

The 8 lbs thing was just a random number, I'll take something that is known solid rather than something that is likely to have issues.


post 37 in the thread on his v6 turbo car:

Lets see.

Pages 1-12 is the first 3400 engine and starting at page 12 you'll see the T3/T4 60-1 .70 Comp and Stage III .63 turbine

Pages 13-17 is the 3500 build with headers and a 65mm turbo..

Page 21 Blew up a 3500. Installed another one...

Page 25 - now 3900 build...

ericjon262

it was also a stock motor with just a cam... and deep into the 11's...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I can do that with a stock nissan 2.0 with a turbo much smaller and full weight and accessorys....

A 4088, all kinds of stuff stripped down, ewp, no ps, no a/c, etc....

34blazer

ok, so whats your point?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

That acting like the thing is crazy fast because it makes a lot of power reasonably is silly.

A hybrid motor setup, thats already blown up once, an $1800 turbo, a stripped down car with a drag transmission, etc etc isnt very impressive, people wanting to go "oh yeah hurr hurr this will surrrpize doze Vate gize alright" dont make any sense when someone shows up with a completely stock 2.0, a smaller turbo, and run a faster ET.

When you say its "just a stock motor with a cam and turbo" and I can come up with the same thing, with almost half the displacement, that runs the number without all of the stripped down crap, I'm wanting to know whats impressive.


The main point, it blew up already, it will likely blow up again, I hope it doesnt, but its an awful lot of hoping.

ericjon262

the 3500 has ps, and a mech w/p, most guys up north don't have a/c, so that's a non issue to me. still has a full interior too.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

His setup in that 11 sec car had just the alternator, and an electric water pump. I know what the engine itself comes with, i'm talking about trying to use that car as an example.

ericjon262

the cam dowel sheared off, which could happen to any motor. I've seen it happen on SBC's and LSx motors too.

ericjon262

yes, his 11.13 was with power steering and a Mechanical water pump, the 3900 has yet to be installed.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Then he's blown up two, because I know I saw where he rodknocked it, which he attributed to running it rich, which could be part of what was keeping it from blowing gaskets.

Intercooled and meth, and rich.

When its properly tuned, doesnt need meth, and race gas, to do what a 2.0 with a 2871 can do, lemme know.

Either way, I still wouldnt cobble together all of that, and hope it stays alive based off of one persons super rich, meth injected setup. Over installing a 3800 and knowing its handled the power plenty.

ericjon262

if I read the thread correctly (I'm not going to look back through it again tonight) there was only one motor failure, and the failure was caused by the cam dowel shearing (like I said earlier, can happen to anything) but where are you seeing blown gaskets everywhere?

I don't base my choice in the motor off of one install, there's also superdave who has been kicking azz N/a with his 3500 too. the heads flow, plain and simple. and they can also bolt to the 3.4 4th gen motor, which bolts in place of the 2.8, no custom mounts or bellhousing or anything. not saying the 3800 is a bad choice, but for that kind of work, you could also put an LSx in it.

also, 3800 have had their share of problems too, every single one of them I have owned has leaked oil like nobody's business, I've also seen them have intake gasket problems too...

in all seriousness though, if I were going to the trouble of swapping a non-stock 6 cylinder into a 3rd gen, I'd probably do something a little more unique, like an atlas 4.2l.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...-t-88-a-2.html

Knocked it.

Only experience with 3800's other than working on a few 4th gens is my dads GS regal. Great mileage, good power, silly reliable. Does have a smaller pulley on it, and I did replace the coupler.

ericjon262

I see it, that was the 3400. every 3800 me or someone in my family has owned has given me problems (hey Eric come fix my car!). I also just don't care for is the added weight, but it's not as big of a deal in something like a thirdgen as it is in a Fiero.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Dont get me wrong, i'm not saying its definetly going to blow up, i'm just saying that after seeing people posting about them having leaking headgaskets, and GM not wanting to fix them, and downplaying it, along with knowing when they made the bore that big on the 3900, head gasket space didnt exactly gain more area, its not something i'd expect to take a bunch of boost no problem, reliably.

Sometimes its just who's maintaining things and how well they're taken care of, my sisters 4th gen lasted quite a while till she finally totalled it, and mom had two 3800 cars that were quite well.

At any rate, for the OP, the 3800 seems like a much simpler route, as well as more reliable and easier to assemble.

ericjon262

no. the easiest, fastest cheapest solution is a 3.4L 4th gen motor, bolt in and go.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes indeed it will "bolt in and go"

But, as i've already made clear, and pointed out, he does NOT seem too keen on going EFI, people are scared of things like that, and trying to get him to swap over to efi, build a turbo setup, and hope he can get a tune together that will work doesnt make sense compared to a tune that will PLUG IN AND WORK.

He clearly isnt afraid to fabricate things, so expecting him to fabricate some mounts doesnt seem to out of the question.

In his case it seems that PLUG IN AND WORK, is more important than BOLT IN AND GO.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Hell even swapping in a 3800 with the M90 and shortening the rear of it to get it turned around and clear the firewall is a better choice, because again everything is much simpler.

Especially when you consider its got a front accessory drive that will actually work properly with the supercharger.

ericjon262

I'm not saying it's the right way, but plenty of guys in the fiero community have gotten away with running the stock programming and larger injectors. and there are carbed intakes available for the 3.4.

also, where will the 3800 plug in and go? 3800's don't run the same ECM's and programming as any stock 3rd gen.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Stock programming and larger injectors is a quick way to ruin an engine.

Yes there are carb'd intakes, he's looking to go forced air, a carb'd intake wont do any good there, the L67 intake is already setup to bolt a blower to it.

Yes indeed it will need wiring, I'm referring to not having to do a bunch of tuning, custom programming etc, it is an off the shelf (off the junkyard donor car), tuned working solution that will run the 36#/hr injectors, that will support 350-370 wheel HP

Gumby

OP, told you so..........

this is what people do when they don't like your idea's; fill your thread with crap, and then the mods will punish you and not them.

great site 10 years ago, a big joke now.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I swapped a stock 3500 into my Fiero. Stock everything. Easily does 0-60MPH in 6 seconds. I overheated it badly once when the heater core blew, it idles rich. Then I threw a 75hp shot if N2O at it. Still runs like a champ at 20,000 kms since the swap. If you compare the stock hp and torque numbers of the 3500 to the 3800, thy are almost identical. It only took a few days of driving the car to get a decent tune.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Oh, and did I mention I get 28MPG with the 4 speed manual?
Edit to add: if/when the head gaskets or lim gaskets blow, at least there will be a good reason.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Oh, so you'd be happy with pat him on the head and "post pics when ur donze"

Rather than him getting a logical, technical discussion about his options, whats what, and what each is likely to do for him ?


Good idea, less tech, more patting on the head.

34blazer

another thread thats in the weeds due to z28ricer and his ego. great job buddy

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Indeed, i'd hate for the guy to have considered going EFI with the idea that it could be fairly simple for him on the tuning side.


Where was your solution again that would make it relatively easy for him to go efi ?

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

So far I'm seeing a valid discussion on whether or not the hybrid 60* has any advantage over a stock 3800 setup.

To the OP. One more thing to consider about going carb is that a custom distributor setup would be required to clear the aluminum head lower intake. It has been done before though. If you want some help obtaining wirin diagrams and which pigtails to swap, I have all of the diagrams you should need.

hybrid 87bird

Ok, One I'm not getting a 3800, so forget that idea. No more discussion of it....Period

Two, I am reiterating the point that i would be extremely happy with 200whp. if I get more than great, but 200 is just fine.

Three, I'm not going Turbo...done...that's final.

Four, i joined the forum to gain knowledge and insight, on my plans and what I want to accomplish. I'm not looking for a "pat on the back" or a "good idea, pics when your done". I would like help on what I plan on doing not what everyone else would do.

Now with that being said...

The distributor I have is fine, its mechanical, all I have to do is remove the ICM and the distributor is set to go. I'm not sure if thats what your getting at? Then the coil would have to be replaced with a "constantly hot" coil. So it doesn't look for a signal to fire from the ICM.

What diagrams are you referring to?

As to ericjon262, I'm not worried about the hood clearance issue, I'm getting a 2" cowl hood for it and if I need more then It will stick out through the hood. Besides it would give it a badass look. From the quick measurements I took, I'll have 5 3/4" sticking out, most of which being the street scoop.

As far as gas mileage goes, any vehicle can get decent gas mileage, if you decide to keep your foot off the throttle. Gas mileage is greatly effected by the driver, this goes for something turbo'ed, or supercharged, hell even N/A. Right now I'm getting about 21-22 mpg's, and for this motor i think that's pretty damn good. No I don't expect this with the S/C but I can get 18-20 out of it.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Ok, when you're done, post pics.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I'm referring to the distributor not actually clearing the lower intake manifold. I've seen one carbed 3500 and they used a marine distributor with a custom extended shaft and a custom plenum. There simply isn't enough room for a distributor with an aluminum head intake. I'd post a pic to show what I mean but I'm on my phone right now. Basically where the distributor gets wider than the shaft it needs to be above the #6 intake runner. If not running a custom plenum as well, it would probably need to be above the plenum as well.

It's because of these reasons it's uncommon to see a distributor and carb setup on an aluminum head 60*.

If you were to decide its worth it to go fuel injection, I should be able to help with wiring info. I'm wiring a 9396 (similar to a 7730 but a weatherproof version and has extra RAM) into my 89 Firebird.

If you're only looking for 200 whp an aluminum head swap with an appropriate cam should get you there without even needing boost, especially since the compression ratio will go up.

hybrid 87bird

When you get the chance post a picture, i need to find thee things out before I start to actually build it. The whole reason why I started the thread.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Hard to tell in this pic, but the lower intake runner #6 comes out to about where the distributor shaft would be. No room for a dist. there, not sure if it would clear the upper plenum either.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Found the thread by the guy who did it.

Quote from the 60*v6 forum:
"but here is the promised view of the Dist. from the rear. It is a very easy job to extend it up, in this case I used a mechanical advance only from a Marine V6 grafted to the bottom end of a 3.1. Larry"

If you're going to go to the trouble of a custom distributor and plenum, I don't see how a fuel injected setup would be harder... especially when you already have a 2.8MPFI harness to modify. Plus, I imagine the fuel injectors would still be left in place otherwise there would be 6 holes in the LIM.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

lol, direct port nitrous..

hybrid 87bird

Thats the 3500? Do you have a picture of the 3400 or the link to the thread? The upper intake manifold wouldn't be a problem, only the lower.

Do you have any more info on how he made the distributor?, and From what exactly it came out of?

I really don't want to modify the wiring of the car, it's just a lot of time. and if something isn't wired properly, I would spend a lot of time chasing down wiring issues, not knowing whether or not its from the different motor or the modified wiring harness. The injector holes aren't a problem, I can tap the holes and machine a brass plug.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the dist wont clear the only manifold i was ever able to get it to clear was a gen 2 fwd intake and that is even worse then the rwd intake in terms of port and flow.and if u raise it to clear it will hit the cowl in a 3rdgen, been there and done that a few years back, think the pics are still in my photobucket

unless u are going to sidemount the m90 u might as well give up the idea right now and just go with a 60-1/gt3582 turbo plain and simple.

as somone who is 1 welding job away from mounting a 4-71 blower on a 3.4 i can already tell u even the m90 will be way out of the hood with the fwd top end

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

The 3400 lim is pretty much the same as the 3500. If you want more details on that dist setup, I would suggest joining the 60*v6 forum and asking the guy.

hybrid 87bird

Been busy lately,

Well for the initial setup I'm just using My 2.8 and leaving the lower intake, and building my intake off of that. So I can do more reasearch on that a little later down the road. but for right now I'm looking at just S/C my 2.8.

Also, The 3400 heads bolt right on to the 2.8 or 3.4. So with the 2.8 can I just bolt on the 3400 heads or do I need to change out the pistons, because of valve clearance issues, as well as compression. If this is the case then I'll wait till I build the 3.4 up. Just curious.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The 2.8 pistons/rods NEED TO GO. The compression with those is off the scale. The 2.8's, as you've already seen, are flat-tops. My 3.1 pistons with about a 12cc dish (not my numbers but from other sites), with 3100 heads (almost same chamber size), should net me about 11 or so to 1 compression (everything I check spits out a different number so it's anyone's guess). 3.4 pistons are about 8cc, IIRC, also not conductive to boost. Which is why most people swap the entire rotating assembly as well when boosting (or at least the piston/rod assemblies).

hybrid 87bird

Yes they are flat tops, are there any other pistons for the 2.8 with a bigger dish?

So I can't boost my 2.8 with stock heads and pistons? Would it hold up to about 3-4 psi?