OK most of you know my car and that Ive turboed it. Well today at the track she finally gave on me. There is a good amount of blow by happing and the compression in the drivers bank is low. 125, 125, and 75. All the passangers side ones are 145Psi, Which is what I recorded about 2 months ago.

It idles fine and runs of because after doing the comp check and shooting some oil in there to see what it would do I decided to limp home slowly. Drove normal. So in turn I believe the rings are just tosted. The vaccum is normal, AFR are somewhat normal also.

I made a 13.98 pass at 107Mph tonight and when I came arround the return road it was starting to smoke. Now it has done this itermittany basically since I got the headers on there and made a few passes/ dataloggs. I dont know what cause this all to happend but its too late now. The smoke was because the oil was coming out of my breather on the passanger valve cover. The pcv is on the drivers side so it would then shot a little into the manifold via the stock PVC valve.

The spot im at though is who knows how much it would be to rebuild this motor even if the cylinders arent too bad. Then I think I can just get another 3.1/3.4 from a J/Y for a few hundred bucks but then I dont wana trash that motor either. The car has progressivly gotten slower latly exspecially on the 60Ft times. Really... a 2.43 60ft time and a 13.98@107Mph pass??? Thats just crazy bad.

Any insite on the process and ideas is wecome. Im not dirt poor but yet I am since i recenty bought a house. So im done for the year on the car but there is a long off season ahead.

Also I WANT to keep a V6 in the car. Im too damm attatched to the thing.

 

i am partial to the small bore of the 2.8/3.1 when it comes to forced induction, its more detonation resistant. but u leave about 20-30 or more hp on the table

the 3.4 has a larger bore which is better in terms of cyl head flow

i would do a 3.4 bored 30 over, kb pistons and plasma moly, or moly rings, i wont put anything but King Engine bearings in a new engine. id also step up the cam a tiny bit

as far as the heads id finish off the chamber work and have the valve seats redone with a 3 or 5 angle valve job

then put it back together

 

At this point the options are pretty open.

Do you want to stick with an iron head version?

Is there anything specific you want to change?

A 3.4 would be my first option, it will bolt in, it will work well, and you can keep all of your existing external parts, just the way they are.

Next option, and I would consider myself, well, I've basically done it, sort of, is 3.4 block, with gen3 heads and intake (Mine was a 2.8 block, stroked with a 3.1 crank, and small port gen3 top end, so it's a sort of ), this will gain a large potential in head flow, but requires a slight modification to the headers, DIS ignition (which $59 will run ), and some modifications to the front drive system. The aluminum heads help with pulling heat out of the chamber (detonation resistance), and shave a few pounds off the front end of the car.

The last option, also takes the most work, and that would be a complete 3500, large displacement, great flowing top end, lighter than an iron headed 660, and has great potential for power, especially when forced induction is used.

BTW, carnage pics are always good. Sucks that you won't be running again until next year though.

 

Agreed. Not that the 3.1 is capped at this point, but you've proven what the engine is capable of with a good amount of modifications, and everything was documented properly, along with videos that proved everything. I think at this point if your going to get into the replacement mode, do it right, and go with a turbo 3500...

 

Yeah, there's still more power to be found in an iron headed 3.1, search the name "Curtis Walker" to find specs on his turbo Z24. I believe it was over 400 HP on low boost setting. I had a ride in the car back in 2002, before he sold it, and it was impressive. But you will spend a LOT of time working on the heads to never achieve the flow of the 3400 or 3500 heads, in stock form. The only reason that Curtis used irons over aluminum, is because someone at GM recommended it for his application, since no one had pushed aluminum heads to their limit and would supposedly fail at his proposed power levels, that theory has since been debunked.

So really, the question becomes where do you want to take the car now?

 

Yea I may have reached my engines limits at least with my skillset and amount of $$ that was in it. We all know it was a faster motor then a 13.30 one.. I just could never get the power to the ground let alone the input shaft lately..

Question about the 3.5L. Will it be able to handle the power and not blow up. IE will it need to be rebuilt with forged internals. Because If so then that will cost alot more then I can afford. I do like the 3.5L idea and also even the 3.4L.

The idea of a rebuild has crossed my mind. I "could" rebuilt this 3.1L correctly but im not sure who even sells forged items for the car. Then who knows the power im leaving out with the iron heads. Im still thining here and what can I do myself with a engine swap. Ive never attempted swaping in a engine that was not made for a car. Usually the only ones Ive been apart of were direct bolt on engine swaps(replacements)

Was mars 3.5L documented at all on here or anywhere else? And if not what were the internal mods to the car?

 

http://wot-tech.com/shop/index.php

Not cheap, but available. They have stuff for both iron-head and aluminum-head.

 

Thanks for the link. They are pricey but at least I have a idea.

Heres another though as I read up on the 3.5L

What if I find a good 3.4L block. Now the 3.5L top will fit it correct?? But the staic compression would be off the chart with the 3.4L pistons IIRC. The only reason I ask is because it looks a tad more invvolving to get the 3.5L block into the thirdgens. Still thinking about the whole process and what the outlook on cost would be and what I could afford. Im no nothing about the hybrids and the capatiblity. Lots to learn I suppose.

 

If you're going for a 3.4/3500 Hybrid, then use the pistons from a 3400.

A 3.4/3400 Hybrid wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

 

Took the head off real quick to see damage. None that I can see but there are some concerns that mabey you guys can help me with. Heres some pictures first. Thanks for any help or ideas of what truley caused the blow by. Im just confused becasue I dont see how a bad head gasket can cause by. Mabey trashed valves, LIM gasket problems, sad valve seals, or just burnt rings. Ideas?? What to look at next to confirm the problems??

#6 cyl. This was the one with the lowest compression 75psi. The others look the same as the walls and the pistons. Slight score that you can see but they are as smooth as they were last time and can not feel any scores with fingernail(not a proper way but it gives you a idea). Also connerned about that slight chip on the top right of the piston.





Different angle view


Now the head, my concern is the amount of oil in that runner on the head. The other chambers were relitivly normal but this one for #6 was oil soaked badly.



This was seaping out the valves I think as I just took the head off and sat it like this, then looked at it and all that oil was there.



#2 cyl on the same head, much dryer(oil wise)



Then look what I found here??? A hole in the header... whats my luck(easy fix but still)

 

Now im getting more upset as the header looks horrible. Too cold of a weld(not any penitration so there is giant leak there, explains my horribe spool up latly.

Heres the last pass of the year. The slowest yesterday and the last one. After that the smoke really started and I didnt wana drive it again.
14.20's lol

 

theres nothing wrong with the shortblock, u burnt the ex valves
looks like some pistion rocking was occuring as well, thats what leaves the vertical lines in the bore.

do u have a bore gauge ? those cyls are to smooth for a rering so u would have to run a hone threw them, which u can do in ur garage but if the bore is already to big and u hone them u may get more piston rock/slap

i dont think u need a rering though looks like u need the valve guides checked and the valve seats reground

 

Burnt the ex valves?? I got them all out do ya wana see some pics? Will they help.

You mean a inside mic to see how wide the bore is? I can get one tommorow from a friend.

 

hey man take those heads over to a local machine shop and have them check/install new valve guides as needed, and install new ex valves along with a 3 angle valve job, then send me the heads and ill get them really ported for ya

 

yeah let me see pictures of the ex valves out of the head and take pictures of the ex valve seats in the head.

yup inside mic and check the bores fore width and to make sure they are round


im 95% sure the shortblock is fine looks like the topend needs to be freshened

btw did u make the runs without the intercooler?

 

do the same with the #6 intake valve as it looks like that one was leaking pretty badly as well

 

Didnt make a run without the intercooler, but its all torn down now. NO IC on the car and basically I have a good amount of the car torn down. I need to get that puppy in shape this time. Also dave I noticed some valve floating, or at least sounded like that, since the car has been having those smoking issues? Is that related or just need stiffer springs? It would do it rarely and usually arround 5K and up.

Im uploading some pics right now and will add in a few min. Didnt get the whole head dissasembled, just the ex valves tonight, and like I said the car is pretty bare in the engine bay at the moment so I was busy just tearing it apart and organizing the pieces.

 

u still have the stock valve springs right? if so then yes they could be worn out
it could also be the oil in the chamber causing missfires.

if u have stock springs i would deffinatly upgrade them

edit want quick easy way to see if the valves are leaking , fill the runner up with water and see if it pours out from a round the valve in the head

 

Valve, they almost all look like this one, at least the drivers side. Didnt take the pass head off yet.










thats basicaly how high up the valve seal was.... is that a bad thing?? Because that doent look right at all?

Yes dave just stock replacement springs. New but stock ###

 

The face of it looks like it did before, discoleration but no cracks or pieces missing

 

them ex valves and seats are shot

before u spend a ton of money on this thing go pick up 3 new ex valves take the hea dover to ur local machine shop and have them check the vlave guide, if they are ok have them do a 3 angle valve job and then resemble the head and reinstall and check compression

if it needs new valve guides installed u need to see how much they will charge u for each guide , and from there u need to decide wether u want new guides installed + valve job or if u want to just go get a jy head and port that

 

Damm thats suxs. Can that cause the excessive blow by that I was dealing with? So it "probly wasent the head gasket"?

Heres the intake valve and the others that are still in hold water fine.

And the face of that one ex valve I can literly scrape off the carbon or what ever it is with my finger

 

intake valves look ok but if u get a valve job done might as well do all the valves in that head so u know for a fact they seal up

http://www.ebay.com/itm/83-89-Chevy-...61d4ff&vxp=mtr

or
these are 4 bucks each but i have to verify the sizes since the aluminum head and iron head are diff sizes

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Valv...a28501&vxp=mtr

check ur local parts stores first they may have the ex valves just as cheap as well if they do just buy 3 for now and have the one head done this way if the engine still has issues ur not out a whole lot of money

 

Ok dave, a friend has a 3 and a 5 valve machiene. He was actually going to do that this winter for me. Im not sure what hes wanting to charge. But not too much.

Is there anything I can do to see if the valve guides are bad? The valve doesnt feel to shake in there.

 

1.42 is the head diameter correct? Not 1.5"

 

yeah let him do the valve job , u can do the wobble test but thats about it, only a machine shop can tell u if the valve guides are to worn

what they do if the guide is bad is they drill it out to a bigger size then press an new guide in

do not spend anymore money then u have to alls u want to do is get that head back into working order so u can bolt it on and do a compression test

hell u coiuld even swap the head from the other side of the motor and do a compression test this way u would be 100% sure

but im pretty dam sure ur loosing all ur compression out the ex valves, those ex valves have been severely overheated

 

Thats a good idea to just swap over the head on the other side and do a comp check.

A few other symptoms, after the car started to smoke badly last night, it sorta would putter almost like a missfire sound out of the exhaust but didnt run much different.

I did notice that the afrs would be sparatic last night on the way home, like 12. then up to 15 and back and forth, probly the oil but its just another thing i noticed. Some times it would run out lean though, very lean like 17 while just crusing, i know my tune didnt really do that before but ever since it started smoking a few weeks back here and there it would do that when im just crusing or if it was idleing. Also big time when I would shift from park to a drive gear, it would lean out then go back to normal once i let off the brake, It would never stay lean for more then a half second ever, it would go back to normal quickly.

The head will fit on the other side though?? I will do that tommrowo or the next before I start picking up parts and so on.

 

Did the water test with the ex valves back on that #6 cy. Neither the intake or ex one seeps water, i couldnt budge it when i blew in it either, i got a oiled face now but oh well.

 

Prolly could find one cheaper on Craigslist. Not this one per se, but you get the idea...



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-Aura-...r#ht_500wt_949

 

they will only seep if they are beyond toast once u ad din the cyls presures u have they will leak.

swap the head and do a compression test

 

Ok I'll get to that in the next day it two. Asap

The only thing I don't understand is how does a burnt valve cause the blow by I was seeing? I'm just confuses on how the air would get into the crankcase.... I understand how this would happen with a lifted head gask. Or LIM gasket. But not the seats of the valves.

I think I need some education here..lol

 

typically if the valve guides go bad it allows ll that air/presure up into the valve cover, who knows u might pull the other head off nd find a broken ring land.

considering that the valve seal was lifted i suspect the valve guides are no good, and those ex valves have deffinatly seen much much better days lol

 

The other cylinder bank checked out good. 145-148Psi on all cylinders. Im not so much worreid about that one... But we will see when I swap heads I suppose.

 

Seriously debating this

http://sandusky.craigslist.org/pts/3209153273.html

45k miles and a recept with the engine. It cost 2200 back a few years ago as I talked to the seller. 700 is a little much though, if I could get it arround 550 or so I think it would be a good answer for my issue as this has alot of items on it which I have no need for and could part out to requip some of the initial cost since all I need is the short block.

What do you guys think??


http://paceperformance.com/i-6255050...te-engine.html
Heres the link of the item new.

Mabey I should take it a little easier on this engine or whatever I get next as I think I was a little overboard trying to make 12 second passes. I should have just been content with having a low 13 sec car with the trans set up i did. Damm boost and it being so addictive.

 

My opinion...

GET IT.

Maybe throw some plasma-moly rings on the pistons, or get those new pistons that Dave was suggesting but for this 3.4L V6.

Maybe have someone like Monster Performance & Transmission rebuild that 200-4R to take a lot of punishment, and get a good torque-converter, too. The 200-4R should fit with the right cross-member.

Again, just my opinion.

 

its a 700 they never made a 2004r that will bolt to the back of a 60* engine

 

Damn...my bad. Thanks for the correction. That BOP confuses me sometimes...LOL!

 

lots of ppl confuse the small bellhousing 700r4 with the 2004r

 

Update. Engine is out. I mainly keep this stuff on the forced induction forum but wanted to update anyone on here just because.

The fun now begins.

 

After a friend came over and saw my crank.. the news wasent good.

What do you guys think here??
http://flint.craigslist.org/pts/3136662440.html

Honest opinions please. Im on a budget so completly redueing everything in my engine that is messed up just isnt the answer. For 250 bucks OBO and if it checks out I dont think I can go wrong. My engine is just messed up more and more the longer I look at the crank, the bearings, and the #6 cy that after I cleaned the oil off does have a good amount scuffs.

Replace the rings with molys(gap them right), swap over my new timing kit, cam or a larger one, shim the oil pump, and call it a day on the engine? Also will have a spare trans and other parts to either sell or use.

Im going to see this guy this week, probly saturday or friday night regardless. Id rather start out with a engine I can drive first, do comp test, and hook my laptop up to before I buy. Not to mention if the Vin t matches the firebird and the miles are indeed 100k or so.