Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

I have read a million threads on here saying a 3800's SC is not possible on our cars. but it is PERFECT boost wise for our motors so why not? I am a machinist and am teaming up with a good friend who is an expert tig welder to fabricate a kit to install the Eaton M62 from a series 2 onto a 60* v6. This charger will make about 8 PSI on a 60* and will produce better results than it did on the 3800, which was still bolt on 45 hp. This will include a new upper manifold, a second crank pulley and balanced adapter ring and adapter block with a tensioner. depending on how long this takes to make and how much in materials, this MAY be available to purchase when all is said and done. This thread will not see much action for a while as we put everything needed together and get all the measurements done. But stop saying its impossible, because its getting done :P

AM91Camaro_RS

You mentioned putting it on a 90* v6. I think you meant 60*...its coming from a 90* motor. good luck with the build!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

yes 60, got em flipped, lol

Fallen2603

An Eaton M62 or M90 supercharger? I haven't heard of an Eaton M67 supercharger...

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love to see a kit like this, including me.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

my bad, thought the number was 67, its a 62

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

the m90's snout is wayyy too long, plus the 62 flows are more suited for our smaller displacement motors

project89

iTrader: (1)

the m90 is perfect for the 60* motor, u dont need a whole lot of fabrication to adapt it to the engine either/

using the smaller lowe would be like putting a full t3 turbo on the engine, sure it works and it gives a lil boost in power but the m90 will make tons more power at a much lower boost level.

so if ur going to do this u want to build it around an m90 not the smaller blower

the manifold base is the perfect starting point, with a simple adapter that welded to the lower intake u can mount up a m60/m90 blower

im currently makeing an adapter to mount a real blower ( 4-71) on the 60* engine, i have all the pieces of 1/2inch plate cut i just need to weld them all up

haisud

you can get cheap eaton m90 from t-bird

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

i dont want anything that was even near a ford under my hood, besides, i got a free m62 and flange

haisud

hahah another gm fanboy

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Oh, you're one of those types of people...

Have fun fabricating a new lower intake to accept a supercharger...

The 60* is much narrower than the 90*, which means that you will need to raise the supcherger quite high above the actual intake, to allow for injectors, and fuel rail, along with misc. sensors, and clear the dizzy, which then probably means that it will not clear a stock hood, I'd be surprised if it did.

The T-bird supercharger is a MUCH better option, since it doesn't really attach to the intake, yes, it gets bolted onto it, but the outlet faces up, since it was used in an intercooled application. This makes it perfect for mounting off to the side, allowing for hood clearance, much less fabrication, and easy ability to intercool the system. Yo8u could leave the stock intake and fuel system alone, and just run a simple tube from teh supercharger to the original throttle body. A bracket to support the supercharger a pulley system, and it's done.

project89

iTrader: (1)

have fun and enjoy wasting ur time that blower is severly undersized for even a 2.8L engine

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah if u want to keep the mpf it will deff have to be mounted up high, with my 4-71 ill be injecting the fuel above the blower, u cant do that with an m62 or 90 though

gumby iirc bought a nicely made adapter that mounts the m90 directly onto the 2.8/3.1/3.4 lower intake, that could be drilled for 6 injector bungs to retain the mpfi, it would just require new fuel rails and lines

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

i could remote mount this one too, but i decided against that and am doing a manifold mount, and i am aware of the hood clearance issue. going to be running a cowl hood. also the supercharger made +45 hp on the 3.8. i think it'll be just fine on my motor

Fallen2603

While an M62 on a 2.8L V6 would be interesting, the M90 would probably be a better choice. Hell, I have an M62 force-feeding the 2.0L four-cylinder Cobalt SS, and that engine can surpass the M62's flow with the right mods.

Besides, the M90 out of the Thunderbird SuperCoupe is made by Eaton, not Ford.

A remote-mount supercharger is the better choice, too. Manifold mounted superchargers have to deal with heat-sink from the engine and lack of efficient charge-cooling. At least with a remote-mount, you can run an air-to-air intercooler and flow more air, which will make more power.

If you still decide to stick with the M62 supercharger, good luck, and I'll still watch with interest.

Cadaver Puncher

iTrader: (1)

Pictures and prices. We need pictures and prices. If this can be all kept under a 3" or less cowl or daytona turbo hood it sounds ok. Just not wanting to put a 4
Make it LOOK stock and I'm into the stealth attack. Just need to get the $$$ together. ( as long as it's less than a ls3 swap.)

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Eaton is Eaton.
Why does it matter what ford used?

If it wont fit under the hood then it isn't bolt on, unless it comes with a hood.

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

I'd be very interested in some way to remote mount a SC to our engine! Always figured that would be easier than piecing together a turbo. I'll be watching this thread!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Series II Engines came with the M90, so for about the last 10 posts, nobody here even knows what they're talking about, and the OP is confused.

Fallen2603

Yes, the Series II and III 3800 V6's came with an Eaton M90. However, the M90's that came on these engines had the the supercharger body, inlet, and throttle-body flange as one piece. This would probably cause the throttle-body to impact the firewall.

That's why some have suggested the M90 out of the Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe. That particular M90 has an inlet that is detachable from the supercharger body. This particular inlet also acts as an elbow, pointing the throttle-body flange toward the front of the car. These M90's are considered by many hot-rodder's to be "universal" and easily adapted to applications like this for that very reason.

I think a TGO member named Pocket was trying to use one of these on an LS engine, but it proved very undersized for that much displacement. Still, the theory seems sound for an engine of this displacement.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Take the blower apart, cut it down where the inlet is, mill it flat and weld your own flange back on.

Or use the T-bird one as said.

I was just saying that the OP said he was using a 62 from a series II, so either he's trying to run a 90, or he's got the engine wrong.

Fallen2603

Oh, yeah, I remember seeing a 4th-Gen 3800 V6 F-body where someone had swapped on a supercharged top-end doing some cutting to the supercharger like you described. Looked like it worker pretty good...

Yeah, I'm just hoping someone ends up doing this so I don't catch this bug.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

oh im doing it, just at leisure, and the the one i have will not have clearance issues, again im a machinist, my buddy is a fabricator

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

apparently the 62 came on the series 1, no big.

Fallen2603

I'll keep my bowl of popcorn ready. Hope to see this come together.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I'm with that guy up there. Please take pictures and let us know the steps you took to get from A to B.

Following along...

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Whats the bypass going to be like?
An electric PTO clutch setup like what the MR2 had along with a big bypass valve might be nice to have.
The clutch would keep a lot of hours and miles off that blower, make the rig a little more economical to drive too. Never neededing to worry about the blower wearing out would be good piece of mind.

Fallen2603

A vacuum actuated bypass valve should be all he needs. Most of the GM M90's have the bypass built into the supercharger body, so he'll just have to make the hole in the manifold and give it a vacuum line from the manifold. He shouldn't need an electric clutch to help with mileage at idle. The bypass valve does a very good job of helping with that, since the air is going around the supercharger. Eaton's are pretty well known for their reliability and longevity, so I doubt wearing out the supercharger would be much of an issue, either. A rebuild of the supercharger would probably be a good idea.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

The supercharger doesn't need to be turning when there is 20''Hg of manifold vacuum from running down the interstate.
Toyota figured it out.
Seems like a waste to me.

Thats why I dont care for superchargers on gas engines, they are turning all the time sucking down gas for no reason.
They have to be wasting at least 2 to 3 horsepower from beating air for no reason other than to warm it slightly.
If its only 2 horsepower, at 60mph its costing you about 3mpg.

I'm calculating it will take 12 to 17 horsepower to compress 300 and 400 cfm to 10psi, most PTO clutches are rated for over 100hp and are under $200.
So the clutch can handle it.
3mpg definatly worth $200 if its a daily driver that logs thousands of miles a year.
If its a show car or garage queen, then no point.

You could have it clutched running off a manifold vacuum switch for daily use and have a manual switch to engauge it full time for "track and race use".

Fallen2603

Hmmm...I'm very interested to know where you got your "only 2 horsepower, at 60mph its costing you about 3mpg."

The supercharger in my Cobalt SS Supercharged ain't clutched, and she still rings in 30-32mpg with the way I drive it.

Mileage is probably more about driving style...

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

2 horsepower is only a guess.
The effect 2 horsepower has on fuel milage is not a guess, since the coefficient of drag, frontal square footage, weight, tire rolling resistance and speed are all known its easy to figure horsepower required to maintain speed. Which for 60mph is about 26.5hp, adding 2 horsepower to that number has a very notice able effect on how much fuel you burn.
Some other accessory horespower consumption figures I worked out:
A power steering pump draws between 2 and 2.5 horsepoewer based on the flow and pressure it puts out.
A clutched belt driven fan draws about 4hp while just "free wheeling" while driving down the interstate, based on highway fuel consumption changes after a fan delete.
A supercharger with all its bearings, gears and air resistince in bypass mode seems it would need at least 4 or 5 foot pounds of torque just to over come those things at highway cruse RPM.
I cant see it being anyless than 2hp. I would love to see some real numbers for this.

When I barrow my friends 2000 sunfire with well over 200,000 miles and it gets 32-34mpg at 80-85mph and 38-39mpg when I am nice to it that supercharger is likely cutting into your profits.

Fallen2603

When the bypass valve on a supercharger is open, there probably isn't any positive air pressure, i.e. boost or air resistance. The supercharger should just be spinning, not compressing.

The Toyota MR2 system still had to turn that clutch. True, not as much resistance as a complete supercharger rotor pack, but still sapping power I'm sure. Neither set-up is actually compressing air at cruise. Also, aren't most of those electric-clutch pulley's of fairly large size? Also, going with these pulley's might severely limit his pulley-size choices...

Who knows. I'm no expert.

I don't really miss a few MPG. Hell, I probably burn more fuel just starting the motor than I do drive it the short distances I do.

LOL! I don't have profits...

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Typical PTO clutch pully size is 5 to 7 inches.

The turbocharger on my truck inparts a good bit of heat into the air it move when I have the piping unhooked and running/revving.
The supercharger would be as bad, just beating the air and not compressing it will heat it up some.

project89

iTrader: (1)

on a 3rdgen camaro it takes 15.6hp to maintain 60mph

Fallen2603

Depending on the crank-pulley/balancer size on the 60* V6, that's at least an inch too big for the M90 to make any decent power.

Hey, Dave, about how big is the crank-pulley/balancer on the 60* V6?

No, the air is BYPASSING the supercharger. The air does not go to the rotors, it is diverted BEFORE the rotors, and is routed directly into the intake-manifold. The air that bypasses the supercharger probably isn't much warmer than ambient inside the engine-bay.

Fallen2603

I found a harmonic balancer diameter of 6.4" for the 60* V6, and the supercharged 3800 seems to have had a harmonic balancer diameter of about 7". A 5" PTO clutch pulley would be way to big for the 60* V6, unless he shelled out dough for an oversized crank pulley...

If my measurements are wrong, please, feel free to correct me.

Atilla the Fun

15.6? Really? Depends on which GFX r lack thereof, ride height, which rear spoiler, body rake if any, tire tread, tire width, wheel width, wheel offset, which trans, which axle, what lube is in the axle. Much more correct to say it's in the 14-18 range.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u know what ur are totally correct to many variables and options that can change it but the 14-18hp range would have been a much better way to say it

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I must have crossed lines some where on the chart, with rolling resistance and aero drag its like 16hp at 60mph.
You dont need 25hp till you hit about 75mph.