1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
08-06-2012, 02:56 PM
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1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Ok ...
(1) New to the forum and while I can search for answers I think I may have too many questions at this point ...
I just picked up a 1991 Firebird with a 3.1L V6 ... This is my 2nd Firebird - my first was a 1974 with a 455 V8 ... sooooooooo huge difference ...
The car was pulled out of a barn after sitting for at least a year ...
I was told that it would run for about a mile and then shut off ... the initial prognosis was a faulty fuel pump ... I was told that the pump had not been replaced yet ...
I buy the car for essentially scrap (under $600) and I tow it home
I start digging into the car and it looks like the fuel pump has already been replaced bonus but in the process they punched a hole in the tank bummer I patch the tank no problem
I bench test the pump both the old pump and the new pump work on the bench bonus of course that leads to more questions because it means they replaced the pump for no reason
I get under the hood which was not bolted on (hint) the fuel line is loose and the distributor is waaayyy loose
I throw in a battery and spray some ether and shell sputter
I do the shadetree spark plug test and I get an orange (campfire color) spark not good either I wanna see Blue/White [Question#1]
I leave the tank on the ground run power lines and fuel lines and ground the tank to the chassis because I want to make sure the pump runs before going through the exercise of reinstallation
No power to the pump ???? [Question#2]
I have three wires to the pump; Grey, Black, & Purple Grey appears to be +, Purple appears to be -, and Black is who knows Im thinking fuel gauge because when I plug it in the needle moves
I check for fuses none in the console fuse box and I have no idea where an inline or relay would be
Not deterred I hook up my bench battery (a little 12volt that came out of my 6 year olds electric Viper (yeah I know dont rag me already)) and hook it up to the fuel pump
I check pressure at the rail 10 PSI ???? [Question#3]
I try to crank the car nothing
Sooooooo My main question is where do I start? Spark or Fuel?
There is no Emissions Label but from my Internet research it looks like Ive got a LAB Emissions Label (3.1L Auto originating from California)
Anyway, I know my Timing is 10 BTC so I do the standard get TDC and set with the timing light but I know theres something else with all this electrica under the hood and then theres the orange spark
Assuming I can get Spark figured out what about Fuel? I have no power to the pump and minimal pressure at the intake
Somehow I cant help but think that all of this is tied together somehow but this is my first time dealing with Electronic Fuel Injection
In Summary where should I start and what are the possible answers to:
(1) Why would I get orange spark?
(2) What would cause me to not have power at the pump?
(3) What would cause me not to have 30-40 PSI at the rail?
Thanks in advance for any and all advice given ...
(1) New to the forum and while I can search for answers I think I may have too many questions at this point ...
I just picked up a 1991 Firebird with a 3.1L V6 ... This is my 2nd Firebird - my first was a 1974 with a 455 V8 ... sooooooooo huge difference ...
The car was pulled out of a barn after sitting for at least a year ...
I was told that it would run for about a mile and then shut off ... the initial prognosis was a faulty fuel pump ... I was told that the pump had not been replaced yet ...
I buy the car for essentially scrap (under $600) and I tow it home
I start digging into the car and it looks like the fuel pump has already been replaced bonus but in the process they punched a hole in the tank bummer I patch the tank no problem
I bench test the pump both the old pump and the new pump work on the bench bonus of course that leads to more questions because it means they replaced the pump for no reason
I get under the hood which was not bolted on (hint) the fuel line is loose and the distributor is waaayyy loose
I throw in a battery and spray some ether and shell sputter
I do the shadetree spark plug test and I get an orange (campfire color) spark not good either I wanna see Blue/White [Question#1]
I leave the tank on the ground run power lines and fuel lines and ground the tank to the chassis because I want to make sure the pump runs before going through the exercise of reinstallation
No power to the pump ???? [Question#2]
I have three wires to the pump; Grey, Black, & Purple Grey appears to be +, Purple appears to be -, and Black is who knows Im thinking fuel gauge because when I plug it in the needle moves
I check for fuses none in the console fuse box and I have no idea where an inline or relay would be
Not deterred I hook up my bench battery (a little 12volt that came out of my 6 year olds electric Viper (yeah I know dont rag me already)) and hook it up to the fuel pump
I check pressure at the rail 10 PSI ???? [Question#3]
I try to crank the car nothing
Sooooooo My main question is where do I start? Spark or Fuel?
There is no Emissions Label but from my Internet research it looks like Ive got a LAB Emissions Label (3.1L Auto originating from California)
Anyway, I know my Timing is 10 BTC so I do the standard get TDC and set with the timing light but I know theres something else with all this electrica under the hood and then theres the orange spark
Assuming I can get Spark figured out what about Fuel? I have no power to the pump and minimal pressure at the intake
Somehow I cant help but think that all of this is tied together somehow but this is my first time dealing with Electronic Fuel Injection
In Summary where should I start and what are the possible answers to:
(1) Why would I get orange spark?
(2) What would cause me to not have power at the pump?
(3) What would cause me not to have 30-40 PSI at the rail?
Thanks in advance for any and all advice given ...
Last edited by Cybrjaz; 08-06-2012 at 03:00 PM.
08-06-2012, 03:38 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
I'd start with a ICM by the sounds/looks of things.. oh yea and a new battery.
08-06-2012, 05:26 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Is the Service Engine Soon light on? If it isn't, there is an inline fuse next to the air filter can. Replace it. It's a 20A fuse. That fuse is for both the fuel pump and the ECM constant power.
1. Replace the ignition coil. And the wires and plugs. Spark is weak, which is why it's orange.
2. Tank sending unit is as follows: Gray is the fuel pump power. Black is fuel pump and sender ground. Purple is the gauge wire. Fuel pump relay is by the brake booster, has orange (12V), red (may not have a red), green/white (ECM control), gray (fuel pump OUT), and black wires. Jump the gray to the orange and the pump SHOULD run. Put a finger on the relay while you or someone else cycles the key on and off... You should feel the relay click. If not, you need to shell out a few $$$ for a new one (you got the expensive relays).
3. Replace the fuel filter and make sure all connections between the tank and the fuel rail are tight. Fuel pressure should be between 37 and 47 PSI with the engine not running, about 4 PSI less when it finally gets going.
1. Replace the ignition coil. And the wires and plugs. Spark is weak, which is why it's orange.
2. Tank sending unit is as follows: Gray is the fuel pump power. Black is fuel pump and sender ground. Purple is the gauge wire. Fuel pump relay is by the brake booster, has orange (12V), red (may not have a red), green/white (ECM control), gray (fuel pump OUT), and black wires. Jump the gray to the orange and the pump SHOULD run. Put a finger on the relay while you or someone else cycles the key on and off... You should feel the relay click. If not, you need to shell out a few $$$ for a new one (you got the expensive relays).
3. Replace the fuel filter and make sure all connections between the tank and the fuel rail are tight. Fuel pressure should be between 37 and 47 PSI with the engine not running, about 4 PSI less when it finally gets going.
08-06-2012, 07:00 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
3: Not having 30-40psi at the rail
First do you see any PSI at the rail at all?
If so:
Clogged fuel filter
The filter or strainer on the pump itself may be clogged up excessivly dirty.
Bad fuel pump/or about to die
Leaky injectors(badly)
Fuel line problems(leaks/breaks/cracks)
First do you see any PSI at the rail at all?
If so:
Clogged fuel filter
The filter or strainer on the pump itself may be clogged up excessivly dirty.
Bad fuel pump/or about to die
Leaky injectors(badly)
Fuel line problems(leaks/breaks/cracks)
08-06-2012, 10:16 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
I have had multiple failures of the coil on mine including the dreaded orange spark.. Finally have a good one.. My failed coils always lit up in the dark so I could see them breaking down and shorting..
08-07-2012, 07:52 AM
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08-07-2012, 08:17 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Is the Service Engine Soon light on? If it isn't, there is an inline fuse next to the air filter can. Replace it. It's a 20A fuse. That fuse is for both the fuel pump and the ECM constant power.
1. Replace the ignition coil. And the wires and plugs. Spark is weak, which is why it's orange.
2. Tank sending unit is as follows: Gray is the fuel pump power. Black is fuel pump and sender ground. Purple is the gauge wire. Fuel pump relay is by the brake booster, has orange (12V), red (may not have a red), green/white (ECM control), gray (fuel pump OUT), and black wires. Jump the gray to the orange and the pump SHOULD run. Put a finger on the relay while you or someone else cycles the key on and off... You should feel the relay click. If not, you need to shell out a few $$$ for a new one (you got the expensive relays).
3. Replace the fuel filter and make sure all connections between the tank and the fuel rail are tight. Fuel pressure should be between 37 and 47 PSI with the engine not running, about 4 PSI less when it finally gets going.
1. Replace the ignition coil. And the wires and plugs. Spark is weak, which is why it's orange.
2. Tank sending unit is as follows: Gray is the fuel pump power. Black is fuel pump and sender ground. Purple is the gauge wire. Fuel pump relay is by the brake booster, has orange (12V), red (may not have a red), green/white (ECM control), gray (fuel pump OUT), and black wires. Jump the gray to the orange and the pump SHOULD run. Put a finger on the relay while you or someone else cycles the key on and off... You should feel the relay click. If not, you need to shell out a few $$$ for a new one (you got the expensive relays).
3. Replace the fuel filter and make sure all connections between the tank and the fuel rail are tight. Fuel pressure should be between 37 and 47 PSI with the engine not running, about 4 PSI less when it finally gets going.
(1) I'll check the Inline Fuse and test the Ignition Coil ... I want to keep my initial costs down because, like I said ... it's a $600 car ... I want to make sure there are no major mechanical issues ... so far so good ... when she turns over there's no "knock" and the oil looks good - no coolant and/or fragments ... so I guess I'll spring for plugs and wires ... what about the cap & rotor? Some wear but nothing out of the ordinary ...
(2) I'll checkout the Fuel Pump Relay (which is a whole $13 at AutoZone) ... I guess it makes sense that the Gauge Wire is Purple ... when the tank leaned a certain way the pump would shut off ...
(3) Since I only got about 10-15 PSI at the rail I'll change out the fuel filter ...
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08-07-2012, 08:20 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
3: Not having 30-40psi at the rail
First do you see any PSI at the rail at all?
If so:
Clogged fuel filter
The filter or strainer on the pump itself may be clogged up excessivly dirty.
Bad fuel pump/or about to die
Leaky injectors(badly)
Fuel line problems(leaks/breaks/cracks)
First do you see any PSI at the rail at all?
If so:
Clogged fuel filter
The filter or strainer on the pump itself may be clogged up excessivly dirty.
Bad fuel pump/or about to die
Leaky injectors(badly)
Fuel line problems(leaks/breaks/cracks)
I am going to change out the fuel filter ...
The Fuel pump and Strainer are new ...
"Leaky Injectors" ...
I traced the fuel line all the way ... it all looks in great shape, all tight with no leaks ...
08-07-2012, 08:28 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Okay ... so to recap ...
(1) I'm testing the ICM, the Ignition Coil, and the Fuel Pump Relay ...
(2) I'm checking the inline fuse ...
(3) I'm replacing the plugs, wires, and fuel filter and any of the above parts that are bad ...
(4) I'm figuring out how to get 37-47 PSI at the rail ...
I think that about covers it for now ... It's raining here in SC so I'm not likely going to get to this until later on this week ... thank you all for all the help ... I'll let you know how it goes ...
(1) I'm testing the ICM, the Ignition Coil, and the Fuel Pump Relay ...
(2) I'm checking the inline fuse ...
(3) I'm replacing the plugs, wires, and fuel filter and any of the above parts that are bad ...
(4) I'm figuring out how to get 37-47 PSI at the rail ...
I think that about covers it for now ... It's raining here in SC so I'm not likely going to get to this until later on this week ... thank you all for all the help ... I'll let you know how it goes ...
08-07-2012, 03:42 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
I bought the 91 as a project car for my 15 year old daughter ... I figured that it would be a better alternative for her than my 80 K-5 Blazer 4x4 ... 350 V8 ... 30 over ... 33's ... All a bit much for a 5'-2" Soccer playing 15 year old girl ... Don't get me wrong - she'll take "Big Red" but ... : also scared off it, too ... I think the pearl white Firebird with T-tops and a 140 HP V6 suits her a little better than the giant "Bo-mobile" ... LOL ...
Last edited by Cybrjaz; 08-07-2012 at 03:50 PM.
08-07-2012, 04:27 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Really??
About the leaky injector comment, sometimes a injector(s) can stick open causeing a cyl or 2 to become overly fueled alot and cause a drop in PSI but you would definitly notice the problem.
Replace the filter like ya said, and then if still having problems maintaining pressure you may want to look into a fuel pump if its original or just old and tired.
About the leaky injector comment, sometimes a injector(s) can stick open causeing a cyl or 2 to become overly fueled alot and cause a drop in PSI but you would definitly notice the problem.
Replace the filter like ya said, and then if still having problems maintaining pressure you may want to look into a fuel pump if its original or just old and tired.
08-14-2012, 07:48 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
I thank you all again for your input and advice ... now for the update ...
(1) Inline Fuse ... Blown ... I replaced and ... shock of all shocks ... everything works ... sort of ...
(2) ICM checks out good ... in fact, it looks like it has already been replaced ...
(3) Fuel Pump Relay checks out good ...
(4) Fuel Pump and Strainer and Fuel Filter are all new and working ...
Sooooooooooooooo ... first thing I checked was the fuse ... once I replaced that then the fuel system (and the interior lights) began working ...
But .....
I'm still not getting proper fuel pressure at the line ...
I checked the lines and made sure they were clear ... I can get fuel to the throttle body because she'll spitter and spit, but she won't stay running ...
I can't give her ANY gas because if I do nothing happens (No spit or sputter) ...
What do I need to look for in terms of fuel pressure?
Once I get that figured out (with lots of help ...) then I've got to fine tune the fire ...
I have not changed the plugs, wires or coil ... but that is next ...
More importantly, is there anything I need to be aware of when setting my ignition timing? Vacuum lines - Sensors that need to be connected/disconnected ... that kind of thing ...
I know it needs to be 10 degrees - but beyond that ...
Thanks again for all of your help ...
(1) Inline Fuse ... Blown ... I replaced and ... shock of all shocks ... everything works ... sort of ...
(2) ICM checks out good ... in fact, it looks like it has already been replaced ...
(3) Fuel Pump Relay checks out good ...
(4) Fuel Pump and Strainer and Fuel Filter are all new and working ...
Sooooooooooooooo ... first thing I checked was the fuse ... once I replaced that then the fuel system (and the interior lights) began working ...
But .....
I'm still not getting proper fuel pressure at the line ...
I checked the lines and made sure they were clear ... I can get fuel to the throttle body because she'll spitter and spit, but she won't stay running ...
I can't give her ANY gas because if I do nothing happens (No spit or sputter) ...
What do I need to look for in terms of fuel pressure?
Once I get that figured out (with lots of help ...
) then I've got to fine tune the fire ... I have not changed the plugs, wires or coil ... but that is next ...
More importantly, is there anything I need to be aware of when setting my ignition timing? Vacuum lines - Sensors that need to be connected/disconnected ... that kind of thing ...
I know it needs to be 10 degrees - but beyond that ...
Thanks again for all of your help ...
08-14-2012, 08:21 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Good luck on that project.
08-15-2012, 07:38 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
check the pulsator on the sender and the fuel pressure regulator
08-16-2012, 08:29 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
"pulsator on the sender" ...
Please forgive my ignorance but WTH is that?? and where can I find it?
Scratch that ... if it's the rectangular thing in between the fuel pump and the hard fuel line ... then that thing is no longer there and from what I can find on the net (in this website) it isn't even necessary and is often removed and replaced with a short piece of fuel line with positive results ...
I'll replace the fuel pressure regulator and the plugs, wires, coil, cap & rotor this weekend and give you all an update ...
Thanks again ...
08-16-2012, 08:48 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
My vote is on a bad diaphragm in the fuel pressure regulator.
08-27-2012, 08:26 PM
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09-24-2012, 07:50 AM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Just wanted to give an update & express frustration ...
I've been working on the body lately - mainly the front clip ...
I pulled everything off the front and cleaned it up ...
Fixed the headlight motors and replaced some of the missing and/ir broken parts ...
I got sidetracked for a couple of weeks with other projects, but i was able to get back to her this past weekend ...
When I disassemble I put all of the small parts, nuts, bolts, washers, clips, etc., in a large bucket ... this way I know I only have to go to one place to get the parts when I got to put everything back together ...
I go to get my Firebird bucket ... and it's ... empty!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some jackass in their infinite wisdom dumped my Firebird bucket ... I guess in the trash because all I have left is an empty bucket and no parts and a bunch of people/kids looking at me with blank stares saying they have no idea what happened to my parts ...
Now I have to find all new nuts and bolts and stuff to put the front clip back on the Firebird ... people, you have no idea just how pissed off I am right now ... it's Monday ... I've had 3 whole days to cool off ... still hasn't happened ....
Now I have absolutely NO IDEA how I'm going to be able to reassemble all of the nuts and bolts and whatnot to put this Firebird back together ... I'd go back to the junk yards but there aren't any 1991 Firebirds simply laying around in SC ...
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
I've been working on the body lately - mainly the front clip ...
I pulled everything off the front and cleaned it up ...
Fixed the headlight motors and replaced some of the missing and/ir broken parts ...
I got sidetracked for a couple of weeks with other projects, but i was able to get back to her this past weekend ...
When I disassemble I put all of the small parts, nuts, bolts, washers, clips, etc., in a large bucket ... this way I know I only have to go to one place to get the parts when I got to put everything back together ...
I go to get my Firebird bucket ... and it's ... empty!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some jackass in their infinite wisdom dumped my Firebird bucket ... I guess in the trash because all I have left is an empty bucket and no parts and a bunch of people/kids looking at me with blank stares saying they have no idea what happened to my parts ...
Now I have to find all new nuts and bolts and stuff to put the front clip back on the Firebird ... people, you have no idea just how pissed off I am right now ... it's Monday ... I've had 3 whole days to cool off ... still hasn't happened ....
Now I have absolutely NO IDEA how I'm going to be able to reassemble all of the nuts and bolts and whatnot to put this Firebird back together ... I'd go back to the junk yards but there aren't any 1991 Firebirds simply laying around in SC ...
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
09-24-2012, 03:10 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
Infinite wisdom....Isn't it the greatest thing ever?
JACKASSES! Call hawks thirdgen, tell em what happen they might be willing to hook you up with all the nuts and bolts you need, I think they take crap apart on a daily there.
Gotta admit I was lmfao for a good while after I read the empty bucket thing..... lmfao....
goodluck....
JACKASSES! Call hawks thirdgen, tell em what happen they might be willing to hook you up with all the nuts and bolts you need, I think they take crap apart on a daily there.
Gotta admit I was lmfao for a good while after I read the empty bucket thing..... lmfao....
goodluck....
11-10-2012, 07:08 PM
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Re: 1991 Firebird 3.1L V6 FI - Where to Start?
there is a relay on the firewall driverside for the fuel pump, also a n inline fuse by the charcole canister, but also on these firebirds, the fuel pump also gets its power from the oil pressure switch. if you dont believe me look up a wireing diagram, or if you have a buddy wit the same car and engine thats running, turn the ignition on and unplug and plug in the oil pressure switch and you'll hear the pump come on.
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