OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Hey everybody! I've been struggling lately trying to figure out what all I want to do to my Camaro. Some things are straight-forward and don't involve much thought, other things require some thought and knowledge to make a good decision to get the result I'm looking for.

I guess the easiest thing would be to give some examples and ask for your advice.

My Goal: Build a car I can enjoy on the weekends or when the weather is nice. Something I can enjoy driving to work when I feel like it or take it out on the back roads on a nice Sunday with the wife and/or kids.

Also as a friend put it, to build the sports car I've always wanted.

Current Goal:
3.4L V6 Swap

• 3.4L V6 with cam, headers, and roller rockers - Purchased.
• Use stock E2SE (CCC) carburetor and distributor.
• Removal of A/C components - Need A/C delete box.
• Low pressure electric fuel pump to replace mechanical.
• Keep 2.8L v-belt system & fan.
• Keep alternator, power steering pump, and AIR pump. only.
• 2 1/2" Exhaust system.
• Modify headers to use AIR pump.

Reasoning: I originally thought that since the car is 30+ years old and exempt from emissions, that I would just trash all the emissions components. But then I thought, why? Why were those emissions controls put there? To make the air cleaner, that's why. So, I'm back to using the OBD-I CCC (Computer Command Control). It may require a bit more maintenance, but my kids will breathe better, and I'll feel better about myself.

Notes: Who makes a decent fuel pump?

T-5 swap

• Shifter out of '83-'92 F-body.
• Crossmember & mount off '85-'92 F-body - Purchased.
• Driveshaft off '85-'92 F-body (prefer aluminum).

Notes: Need to find correct speedo gears for my rear-end (3.08).

Suspension & Chassis

• KYB shocks & struts - better than Monroe and not too much $$$.
• Subrame connectors.
• Strut Tower Brace (3 point).
• Wonder bar - Purchased.
• Z28 front and rear anti-sway bars - Purchased.
• K-Frame braces - Purchased.
• All new bushings.
• IROC-Z 16" rims - Purchased.

Notes: Read that inner subframe connectors are best. May add outers too.

Brakes

• Stock components with modern materials should be fine.

Body & Interior

• Hood is rusted along front edge - Need hood.
• Doors rusted along bottom - Purchased good used doors.
• Rear hatch panel is rusted - Need panel or repair.
• Seats; upgrade to 4th generation - Purchased.
• Carpet is shot - Replace?
• Interior plastic panels are whiteish & crumbly - replace?

Original Post:

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Heres a good (sticky) post about the perfomance side of you car and the optoions you have. Read the whole thing when ya get a chance. Its great info.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...ost-power.html

Here are the aftermarket parts that can be had. These post are at the top of the V6 forum page. I know you might be new on this site so look at the top of any forum for the "stickys", these post that have alot of helpful info on them.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/3...arts-60-a.html

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! I did read through the stickys; they have a lot of great information. The problem I'm having is which of these things should I do to my car to get it where I want? I assume some is overkill and not needed, but I'm not sure where to draw that line.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, the FIRST thing you SHOULD do is get rid of the small-journal engine and at least get a post-85 2.8 long block in there (more beef to the crank journals, bigger valves). 135 HP, 160 torque to start, gain of about 30 HP...

Get a good base to start with... You can build the greatest building in the world, but if the foundation is crap, it's not going to last very long. After that, everything else is up to you.

Personally, my goal is 200 RWHP, one color on the outside, and one color on the inside, with everything working. Since my original 2.8 blew in 2004 and was replaced with a 3.1, I've decided to make it a hybrid 3100, which should easily get there.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well, that's one of my questions... should I keep the freshly rebuilt 1982 2.8L? I can get 3.4L engines pretty easy around here. Should I use the 2.8 until it dies and then switch? Should I dump the 2.8 and get the 3.4?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Dump it...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

At the very least, like I said, get rid of the base engine. Those early 2.8's have a reputation of blowing even when revved up. The 3.4 may have more potential in the long run, but I wouldn't stuff one in there just because. If you want something more modest, get a 3.1.

Also, I would get rid of the transmission... You currently have a 200-4R. The 700R4 should work a little better for you.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I have a 3.1L and though its not a power house by far... which we all know. It is alot better than those 2.8L carb engines(have like 108HP). Newer engines having forged internals are nice to have even though im not using the engine in a High Hp application(lack of $$ is the only reason why)I know that it'll take a hell of a beating.

Id just look arround in some junk yards for a Newer 60* motor either it be a fullie 2.8 3.1 3.4. I dont know what your plans are far as preformance or what youd want to spend. But the I sure wish i had the 3.4L in mine. 160Hp is alot funner then the 140Hp of the 3.1, like i have.

There are so many options, engine swap, then mabey even a hybrid conversion. Although im a little hessitent about that hybrid conversion Ive read alot about it and If i had some better skills and more $$ I would have done it along time ago.

Good luck on the process and its a fun journey to play with these motors!!!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

You may have missed the note, I'm swapping the TH200c for a T-5 Manual Transmission.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Since the engine has been rebuilt, there's no sure way to know if it's a small or large journal block without some extensive disassembly.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it breaks, it breaks, if it doesn't, all the better.In the mean while you can worry about what you do want to do for an engine and how to get there. No sense in replacing something that isn't broke if the new part isn't going to be used in the grand scheme of things.

Fallen2603

A horsepower/torque goal and a budget would help with advice, too.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yes, I guess I missed that...

At any rate, if you get the trans from an 84 or 85, DO NOT use the crossmember and mount that comes with it. Get a crossmember and a mount from a 700R4 as the mount is cheaper to replace when it splits ($15 or so versus $200 or thereabouts for the dual donut thing). And get EVERYTHING that goes with the trans (driveshaft, torque arm mount, catalytic converter/exhaust hanger) because NOTHING is going to swap over. DO NOT get the weight that goes with the early T-5 transmissions as it's just dead weight you won't need.

Depending on the engine, you may or may not need to get a different flywheel from what may come with the transmission. Anything post-88 doesn't have a balance weight on the wheel, and you can't use the wheel on anything older, and vice versa.

Later model T-5 transmissions, the World Class, are preferred over the NWC, due to bearing and synchronizer ring changes. But the rebuild kits for either are expensive, and I'd recommend either rebuilding it or having it rebuilt before putting it in as you don't know how good the bearings and gears are until it's apart (just found out mine needs a full bearing set ).

:edit: Oh, and the way to tell if it's the original engine is to look at the boss just above the pan rail next to the nose of the starter. If the 9-digit number found here (probably need sandpaper to clean it off) is the same as the third and last 8 digits of your car's VIN, it's original, and you should dump it if you plan on building any sort of power.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

True... for horsepower and torque I'll take a guess. My Saturn VUE runs around with 143 hp and 152 lb/ft of torque and weighs 3,500 lbs - about 500 more than the Camaro. I'm happy with that power to weight ratio so we can use that as a goal, maybe even a bit more.

Budget is trickier. I'd like to keep it between $2,000 and $3,000 but I am a bit flexible with that.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well thats plenty of $$ to wake that camaro up.
I did see that your not sure how well that 2.8 was rebuilt, when it comes down to it, its up to you if you wana keep that motor or not. You could do some mods to it and then if the thing blow up, you can swap that stuff into another 60* motor.

Sitting on the stock 108 Bhp which is about what that motor has, its gonna be more exspensive to get to the 150 Bhp or so you would want.

If your in this car for some more spunk and power that carbed motor isnt the way to go even if its just been rebuilt. any post 85 2.8 3.1 3.4 would show you the most increase in Hp. If you have a great house and the fondation sucks then the house still stucks.....you need to start with a better engine platform if you intend to wake your car up exsp. if you have that large of a budget. Just remember if you just swapped in a 3.4 youd be gaining 55 HP from that alown. Thats a HUGE difference.

Frame connectors do help greatly. It'll stop the flexing that our cars love to do. Its like when you twist a Ice tray. Thats basically what our cars love to do, under acceleration or in turns.

Shocks are also a great investment. I got KYB mono tube shocks and struts since there good and are cost effective. I love the way the V6 camaro handles regardless. Its hard to shake the car in turns. Its weight balance is almost a perfect 50/50.

Personally i have the stock Brakeing equiptment on mine, its just newer items. I have no problem stopping at all. But if you have the $$ for it im sure itll help make the car have alot better stopping power.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

It is a bit of money, but I must also consider that since it sat for 16 years that I need to replace springs, struts, shocks, all bushings, sway bar ends, brake hoses, calipers, rotors, wheel cylinders, all body seals, rear axle seals, etc. In addition, I need a set of tires . That all comes to about $1,700 according to prices I found.

Exactly the reason for my questions and trying to figure out how to get what I want out of the car. Swapping in a 3.4L that I am sure of will give me more power and alleviate the worry about the 2.8L. But that does bring the price up. I suppose I could save some by keeping the 3.4L carbureted using my intake and carb. Fuel injection would be nice but would mean upgrading the wiring and computer. I'm going to have to think on this part a bit.

Thats good info - I'll definitely lean toward some Sub-Frame Connectors. Shock & Struts can get pricey, I'll have to do some cost comparisons and see which ones work well. I don't need top-of-the-line but I don't want something that sucks.

Good to know on the brakes, it will be cheaper to replace with stock components.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The shocks/struts from KYB are very resonable and work well. Off the top of my head the shocks/struts would cost under 300 buck all together. I have the mono tube ones. There are cheeper ones then that but there a good upgrade compared to some cheep monroe ones, or stock ones.

The best way to get a 3.4L or another 60 degree motor would be to search junk yards for a whecked f-body car. Then you could hopfully take the ECU wiring harness and everything else with the engine. It can be done and cost effective too if you can find a decent motor at a decent price. If this is your plan in the engine department...then just call arround and see if anyone has a complete engine at a j-yard. It never hurts to call arround. Exsp. on a budget.
Also you could try and sell the 2.8L or even try and trade it with some $$ to the junk yard if you could find one that would be intrested in that.

You could just use the lower part of the EFI engine but it would be better(if you can) find a EFI engine with the wiring harness, ECU and EFI intake system still connected on the engine.

Fallen2603

Since you're not looking for too much power...

- 3.4L V6 with wiring harness from a junk-yard, maybe even with a T5 and all the other parts you'd need for the swap
- PaceSetter headers
- Cat-back exhaust system
- Decent clutch
- Aluminum drive-shaft, out of a 4th-Gen
- Sub-frame connectors, DEFINITELY
- New shocks and springs

Just a rough outline.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

That is an option... There are quite a few 3.4L's around for about $400 for a good running one with about 100,000 miles.

Those all sound good too

One other question to anyone that may know - the T-5 I bought is from a 1994 3.4L V6 Firebird (engine was toast otherwise I probably would have taken it too!). Are all 1994 T-5's World Class? Also was it a good buy for $120 including flywheel (which I can't use with my 2.8L), clutch pedal & box, and master & slave cylinder?

Fallen2603

Yes, that T5 is a World-Class unit. And, yes, that was a good price. If you get the 3.4L V6, you'll be able to use the flywheel you got with the transmission, and it becomes an even better buy. Great job on getting the rest of the gear you need for the transmission swap, too.

Oh, a cam swap would be something else to add to the list.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're going to need a speedo cable drive unit from an earlier year car since yours has a speedo cable. The one from the 94 is electronic and isn't going to work to drive your speedo unless you swap to a newer cluster (89-90+ for the Camaro, IIRC). I have 2 of these, one requiring a plastic gear with the cable drive attached and another requiring only the gear from the 94's VSS, provided you have the correct gear on the VSS for your rear gear ratio. If you need a gear, they are available online for a couple bucks. However, if you need a drive gear (the purple one attached to the output shaft of the trans), those are hard to find as everybody and their brother wants one for LSx and LTx swaps.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well, I gave it all some thought today. If I keep the 2.8, it may or may not work. Either way, it's still not a good engine.

So, I'll go with a 3.4L. I'll start tracking a good one down complete with computer and wiring harness.

That said, I should also look for a 1992 instrument cluster so I'll have a working speedo. Now once I have a complete 3.4 I know I'll need an electric fuel pump, crossmember from an 85-92 F-body, and a driveshaft (preferably aluminum) from an 82-02 F-body.

What else will I need?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Don't worry about getting the 3.4 PCM and harness, it will be more work than it's worth to try to use the OBD 1.5 PCM.

I would use the ECM and harness from a 1990 to 1992 3.1L. This ECM is easier to retrofit and is easier to tune. If you decide to keep the DIS there is drop in code that will run the DIS.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Unless he gets a harness and PCM from a 93...

Have to disagree with the 90-92 3.1 harness... Too many issues of late with ignition systems failing due to a defective harness (that I have experienced myself as well, this is a known issue not only here but also by GM). If he were going that route, I'd get a harness out of any FWD car having a 3.1 (not a W-body unless you want to find a way to mount the 1227727 under the hood) OR FWD 2.8 (post-85)... Same ECM, still OBDI, still DIS, no known ignition issues. Still going to have to rewire the C100 and C207.

84beaut

iTrader: (2)

After having just went through the 3.4 swap process, I would definitely search for a 3.4. I got hooked up at a local junkyard with a 3.4 still in a 95 Camaro that was just side swiped. We pulled it and took it home for $200 including the electric fan. Though you may not be as lucky as I got, after taking it home and tearing it apart to find out it had been most likely freshly rebuilt. Just pulled out the old dead 2.8 and swapped my entire carbed top end in and the only wiring was wiring in the new fan. Going with a 3.4 would give you a much better starting point. Plus while you have the new engine out, you can replace whatever you want done before you even put it in. Also, I still have stock brakes, just new hardware, and I have had no problems or need for an upgrade. And have saved me plenty of times (Somernights cruise gets hectic).

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

This is the first I have heard of this "ignition issue." The reason I suggest a 1991 to 1992 3.1P harness is because it uses the 1227730 ECM and will be a virtual direct fit for his car.
The 1985 FWD V6 was still dizzy, DIS first appeared on the FWD 660 in 1987. As someone who is not in anyway afraid of automotive electrical and modification and has used a FWD harness to do a couple RWD EFI swaps into carburetted vehicles, I would, when starting with nothing, look to use every advantage I could in ease Of retrofitting.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Huh, I don't know why I didn't think of that! Use my stock intake & carb... that would still leave me with having to come up with a speedometer solution since my current VSS is in the dashboard.

OR

Drop in full SFI 3.4L V6 and use 1992 3.1 wiring & ECM? This would still require the gauges from the 1992 correct?

For simplicities sake - keeping as much stock as possible would help with getting systems to work together. That would be:

• 3.4L using my carb & intake.
• Swap tailshaft on T5 to cable type (or options below).
• Get low pressure fuel pump for carb.
• Replace mechanical fan with electric.

Options for speedometer are:

1. Change tailshaft end of transmission to older style.
2. Purchase device to convert VSS to mechanical cable ($300 ish).
3. Purchase electric speedometer and feed transmission VSS signal to my ECM (would this even work?).

See! This is why I'm asking you guys all this! Trying to nail down my plan and all I run into are more questions!

84beaut

iTrader: (2)

With my setup, the PO had a new electric high flow fuel pump installed in the back around the fuel tank, and installed a pressure regulator in the engine bay for the carb so you can adjust it. But basically it's just a matter of swapping your intake and valve covers over with the carb. You want to keep your valve covers because using the carb, the passenger side has the bracket welded on that hold the throttle cable and for me the kickdown/detent cable for the tranny in the bracket and is attached to the carb. I'm not sure but the carb setup probably hurts the performance (HP) potential of the 3.4 since it's an old varajet my 2.8 had, but you get serpentine, and electric fan. I also ended up using the exhaust manifolds, but modified and used the metal shroud/gasket for them off the 3.4 since my old ones were pretty much non existent. That and I didn't want to worry about the exhaust angle having to match up when bolting the exhaust back up.

Edit: Also after wiring in the fan and installing it, I just installed the old mechanical fan shroud (Not sure if yours has this, I'm sure it does) around it, to give it a more stock look. Honestly the only thing people would be able to tell that your setup wasn't stock would be the serpentine, that is if you're even worried about a stock look. I wasn't so I went ahead and painted the valve covers and everything, etc.

Edit 2: I really need to pay attention here. Haha But to also add, the A/C compressor replaces the air pump location, if your 2.8 is setup the same as mine. So keeping the compressor and just disconnecting the hose from the accumulator (canister), it was the perfect length and was routed to the exact same position as my canister. Only thing is, I'll have to either go back and get the canister from the old camaro, or find an adapter to make it fit into mine. But just throwing around some info here. Just in case you wanted to keep the A/C and assuming you have updated to the 134a.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Yep, I've got that same fan shroud... if I do go with the electric fan I'll put it back on.

Hmmm, maybe I'll just keep the stock belt setup then - I've already got a new water pump and it would look more original. I do have the A/C but it is not charged nor converted. I've also removed the A.I.R. pump as the back flow valves were shot.

84beaut

iTrader: (2)

Just for comparison, a couple of my old vs. new:









Really with the fan shroud you won't really notice the belt setup anyways. And minus the painting, everything would look pretty close to original. I have a lot more dressing up I want to do and mods to make it look better, but if it's a stock look you want then you should have no problem being very close to it.

midias

If you are staying carb I would look to upgrade to these for your 3.4L

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3789/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3785/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-0-8007/

Or use this and the stock carb

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3787/

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Is the stock intake really bad? I've heard the carburetor is OK when properly rebuilt and adjusted so I'm more likely to keep it as I am very familiar with it.

midias

The stock 2.8L manifold flowed fairly bad for the 2.8. On a 3.4 it will be restrictive. It is just a suggestion something to think about. Check this out you may be able to snag it cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edelbrock-in...item3cbf6feb13

I have also heard a spacer from the carb to the manifold is a great mod for the factory base.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info! That Edelbrock intake is prohibitively expensive though I'll make do with stock for now - same with headers. They will have to wait.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Wow! Found a 1994 3.4L V6 with 114K miles on it for only $250! With warranty! Sweet! Now to borrow a friends truck and figure out some way of unloading it...

I was bouncing around the idea of keeping the SFI from it, but when I asked the guy what it came with, it didn't include wiring or any extra components - just block, heads, intake, exhaust manifolds, water pump, and the few sensors in the block and intake.

So, I'll grab this V6, swap over all my parts, and drop it in!

batsibf

something you might want to look at (mine shot is why I'm saying this from rust and damage) but take a look at your track bar brace, it above you track bar. I actualy found some where that says they have an oem part for this it at:
http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...ed-156-28.html

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the tip! I'll make sure I check mine.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay folks, I've got another question. This one is paint related. My car's paint code is 55U/55L (Gold). However, there is another color in use on the car, most notably in the headlight pockets. Any clue on what color code it is?

Link to Flickr

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

As much as i hate going against the crowd, i think im going to here. IMHO youre best off keeping the 2.8, doing some minor engine upgrades and some suspension work. I realize the 3.1 or 3.4 is generally a better engine but i find it hard to ditch something that as it is now, works perfectly fine. Theres also no guarantee the engine will crap out on you at any point in time. Sure, if you try and push the hell out of it something could go wrong just because of what it is but if thats not your plan then why worry? For the most part, everyone on this site is very helpful but again, imho, everyone seems way to swap happy and also assumes thats the best route for anyone who asks. If something does happen to the 2.8 depending on the upgrades you do, most if not all of it may transfer over if you decide to get a 3.1 or 3.4. All that said, after a lot of researching and questions i decided to keep my 2.8 (ive had it a while anyway) and just make improvements tot he car that i wont regret later on if something does happen. In case youre wondering what i did i went with an MPFI setup recently, also found a lighter drive shaft, got new brakes and lines (my dad makes them through one of his businesses, the color even goes with my car lol), and new exhaust setup (just made sense with a new intake setup). I plan on getting a lighter hood and hatch (mine has some rust so no biggee), stiffening up the body a bit to prevent any probs (i have t-tops), and if all goes well round it out with a better suspension. Later on i may look into modding the engine a bit more with upgrades i can transfer over if i need to but i havnt looked into it all that much yet (aside from a turbo, but thats just all around useful info imo).

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

The problem with the 2.8 is I do not trust the work of the guy who built it. If I'm gonna tear it apart and do another rebuild, I might as well use a 3.4 while I've got it out.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, with regards to my paint question above... should I be trying to keep the original color? Metallic is notoriously tricky to paint (I'll be painting it myself).

I've been reading this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...paint-job.html

I'm thinking about doing the same thing; painting it with single stage red and shooting some satin black in the accent areas. Anyone have tips or advice?

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, another question for the gurus... what are these parts called in this picture?



I've got them labeled as "Frame Braces" but I don't know if that is correct. I'd like to buy them for my Berlinetta and it's hard to do so when I don't know what to ask for!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Not sure about the one on the right, but the big one on the left is a K-member brace. There may or may not be one on each side, and there may also be one, period. They're hit-or-miss on whether a car had either side and/or both or none.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Great! I'll try seeing if I can find one using that term.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay folks, time for some more questions.

1) I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not to keep the Computer Controlled Carburetor (E2SE) and various emissions controls components. I'm a fan of a clean engine compartment and an easy to work on engine and removing all that would be wonderful! But I'm torn over the legality of it.

2) I'd like my Camaro to handle like a BMW. What I mean by that is minimal body roll and top-notch handling. My last Camaro ('85 Sport Coupe V6) tended to wallow a bit, I want this one to be firm and precise. I'm going to add Z-28 Anti-Sway Bars and a set of Sub-Frame Connectors. Any other thoughts? Upgrade to a Z-28 Power Steering Box? Switch to Polyurethane Bushings? Shocks, Struts? - Never mind this one! I just found the Suspension How-To thread. Doh!