Graeme'sFirebird

i found a guy who made 230 hp and 210 tq off his 2.8 camaro...his mods were all bolt ons which were computer and smog friendly...heres what he put: *hes now running a no2 and s/c'r setup*

I have done a fair amount of work on it. I bumped the power up to 230 HP and 210 TQ at 4400 rpm. All parts are street legal and computer friendly. (Note: Casey said that the Torque and HP figures were arrived at using a mini dyno???)
When we rebuilt the 85 engine, I got a cam with .475 intake and .496 exhaust lift @1.6. I also installed 1.6 roller rockers from Competition Cams. The lift on the cam caused a nasty lope in the engine (by nasty I mean it sounded mean). But it also caused a drivetrain vibration from 1800 to redline. I had obviously over cammed it to much for the computer to handle.

(On my next V6/60 rebuild) I used forged pistons, SEALED POWER chrome moly rings, FEDERAL MOGUL bearing( main and rod). And all FELPRO gaskets. I got a compucam 2000 from CRANE CAMS, it's a computer friendly cam with .432 lift intake and exhaust @1.5. The CRANE HI-2000 ignition discharge unit and the CRANE PS91 coil. I used the 8mm helicoil plug wires from MSD, with BOSCH platinum spark plugs. Hypertech thermomaster computer chip and thermostat (160deg) and the Hypertech air filters.

I had removed the screen from the mass airflow sensor, but it caused turbulence in the intake, so I had to put it back in. The intake from manifold up was gasket matched. I replaced the Catalytic Converter with one from Products For Performance. And installed the exhaust system from Dyno-Max (Walker performance exhaust),it is a 2 1/2in system. The package went together easily. It now sounds really nice (some say better than the stock 5.0L and 5.7L) it revs cleanly, and it has the power to make me smile.




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Flowmaster 80 series, Random Technologies Cat, 3" intermediate pipe, SS Hand Made Tips, 3 1/4" out, Accel 8.8 wires, MSD Coil, MSD Ignition Module,MSD 6A Box
Currently Working On:
T5 swap
Next to buy:
Slp dual cold air intake!

TomP

Awesome! Graeme you've gotta get these guys you're finding to visit this page once in a while, I bet we'd have questions! I wonder where Todd went...?

I always wondered if Sealed Power made rings for the 2.8, but never bothered to look- glad to know they do.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

Kyle F

Oh please there is now way he is making that much power out of that engine. Only mods he did was a cam and exhaust. Unless there is a lot of stuff he didn't tell you. I mean c'mon you guys have v6's with more mods that this and you guys aren't making that mush power. Where is the NOS and the Supercharger? I doubt an ignition system and exhaust is worth what like 50-60hp?

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86 Trans Am 355 TPI Rebuilt 700R4 with Corvette servo, modified valve body, and a B&M Torque Converter (2000 rpm stall w/ lock up), 87 350 block bored .30 with new crank, bearings, rings, and magnafluxed rods. Reworked 305 heads with 3-angle valve job. Added in the rebuild was an SLP TPI cam, BBK 58mm Throttle Body,SVO 24# injectors,MSD 6A, Hypertech Power Coil, 1.5 Crane roller tipped rocker arms, SLP Intake Runners and Port matching in upper intake including fully ported plenum, TPIS adjustable fuel pressure regulator @ 46psi, Hooker shorty style headers w/ Thermotech heat wrapping, Custom 3” exhaust with Flowmaster muffler and chrome quad tips, Hypertech Thermomaster Computer chip, K&N open element cone filter on modified MAF per TPIS specs, MSD Wires, removal of A/C hardware and a 1LE firewall cover installed. Also there has been a PST front suspension kit with Hotchkis strut tower brace
http://geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Garage/9548/kyle.html

Kills:
95 Talon TSI, 96 Probe GT, 91 T/A L98, 89 RS, 86 Mustang GT, 88 Mustang LX 5.0, 92 Thunderbird V8. couple or ricers that I think were Civics or Preludes not sure what year, 95 Celica GT-S, 94 Chevy 1/4 ton 350, one of those NASCAR F150's

94Camaro

umm..no..

he did this:
that looks like a lot more than a cam/exhaust. and also, if you look closely, he did a rebuilt, which probably means he overbored the engine .030 (standard on rebuilds) meaning it was a little more than 2.8L..but not much.

i imagine he probably also put rocker arms into that too. he also gasket matched the intake, that will create better airflow into the engine, and he had a high flo cat, and catback exhaust system. and 2.5" is actually the OPTIMAL (from what everyone has told me and ive asked a LOT of people over the years ive had my camaro - read: 4 years, hundreds of people) size for the 2.8-3.4L engines.

please read things carefully before replying.

-R

Kyle F

WEll I still say there is now way. Sow what he rebuilt it and put good pistons and gasket matched it. Still the only REAL MODS was and cam/exhaust, and sorry an ignition. Nothing there makes a whole lot of power. Yes I know 2 1/2" is optimal for a 2.8 and I think that a high flow cat is still part of the exhaust. Sorry until I she a dyno sheet or track times or a NOS bottle IM CALLING BS BS BS BS, that guy is so full of crap his eyes are brown. Think about it some of the 305 didn't come with that much power and they have to do a lot of work to get to that HP output. Still BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oH no wait those Bosch Platinum plugs make 20hp right?

94Camaro

fine. you wanna call BS go for it. but i wouldnt do that until you tried these kinda mods and could say for one way or another what kind of power it could make.

#2. last time i checked, forged pistons were a modification, and gasket matching (enlarging the ports until they are the same size as the gasket on all intake ports) can improve power a lot! im not calling BS. cause i dont know enough to DISPROVE that theory. do some homework, if you can come up with some good evidence to support against what that guy said on his website, (and i saw the website where graeme got that info from) ill believe your BS call. otherwise, stop clogging the thread up .

-R

Dan84SC

I think it's entirely possible to get that much power out of a 2.8L V6/60. The largest problem with making power with our engines is getting them enough air and fuel, and having a good exhaust system. If you can feed our engines well, you're going to get some serious power output.

This is pretty much true for just about any engine, though... It's all common sense!

3.1camaro

What is Gasket matching I have never heard of that? If it really produces some power, then how do I get it done?

87 Firebird

That would be the process of altering the gasket to match the head precisely, that is, the gasket does not overlap inside the heads at all. Supposedly produces better flow, etc....

85f-bird

he's right 3.1camaro. The idea is to make the holes (openings) where air comes through into the motor as larger as the gasket underneith them, that way there will be no air restrictions, this was most likely done on his intake ports and exaust ports, which combined with a cat-back will provide monster power. As far as doing it, it'd be a serious mod, and talking serious money. You might be able to do it yourself, but if you're a novice i wouldn't recomend it. Basically, it'd consist of tearing the engine down to a short block, and matching the holes in the gasket, to the holes in the manifolds, and making sure that they're the same, all the way down to micromilimeters. If i were you, ask a shop how much they'd charge to do it, if you really want it done.

camaro6spd

LOL....ohhhhhhhh I did not know that F.M. bearing added so much power!!!I think i will take out my factory GM ones in my V8 and swap them for the F.M. and get 25hp. Damn. All he did was an exhaust and cam....big fing deal a cooler thermo and air filters along wtih some nice bearings and rings don't add that mouch power....I would say they only added like 3 hp if that. A V6 is alot harder to make power from then a V8....you can't just slap on a exhaust, a cam and port the heads and expect a 70hp gain. Hell you can do that to a V8 and Still not get 70 more hp.

89BlackBirdKid

Why is everyone such a hater of us v6'ers. I mean if u think the guy is bsing then think that theres no point of arguing over something neither of u can prove. I love my v6. I would have a v8 but dad and insurance keep me from getting it and so far I'm happy with mine.

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Josh
1989 Firebird
Working the 2.8 to 2.4 swap with a 5 speed.
Kills: 2000 Silverado V6, 1995 v6 mustang, 1994 rodeo v6, 2001 Ford Sport trac, 1992 honda prelude riced out

Losses: 89 GTA, 95 Z28, 90 Camaro 305 TBI with mods

KED85

Josh, Check your signature!!
I have just pulled out a Supercharged article from B & M about their set ups.
From my Sept 86 Super Chevy issue.
these numbers from **** Landy's Dyno.
Tell me you do not know who **** Landy is?
Stock 2.8 2 bbl carb set up was 135 hp & 147 Torque.
With addition of B & M Blower & 4 BBL CARB, power to 204 HP & 194 Torque (using a 95 CID sized blower).
Then they changed cams
220 HP & 202 torque
No, they are not going to fit the factory fuel injection systems.
Call B&M in Chatsworth, CA to see if they still have any left over.
They were quoted $1500 in the article.
Again Sept 1986 Super Chevy article.


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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

mrr23

no. gasket matching is making the intake and exhaust ports match the size of the gasket. the gasket is usually larger than the port to ensure 100% seal.



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mrrjjdh03@aol.com moderator at www.fl-thirdgen.org

Graeme'sFirebird

I think a carb'd 2.8 would be loads of fun with a blower! hmm...

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1972 Chevy Chevelle "Malibu"
Hooker Headers, Flowmaster 40 series mufflers, accel 8.8 wires,Edelbrock performer intake Edelbrock Carb, Msd Blaster 2 Coil, Torque Thrust "D" wheels
Click here for my Malibu information
In Memory of #3 Dale Earnhardt

Camaro_hunter_d

Both of you guys are right. I have installed gaskets that have choked the opening, meaning they were smaller, and others that were bigger then the opening leaving bare metal on both parts. Quality control is not what it used to be anymore.

dennis6

I have proof a V6 can be that powerful...
There is a guy on the Pennock's Fiero Forum(www.fiero.nl) That has a 2.8 Fiero with NOS that will beat a modern corvette and has the timeslips to prove it. The guy goes by 1FST2M6 I love V8's as much as anyone, but a V6 can be fast.
Links for those of you who would doubt:

http://www.1fst2m6.com/FIERO -for dyno info

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/010190.html - for timeslip info

He even made car of the week and car of the month in some publications:

http://discussions.gmforums.com/show...&threadid=8707



[This message has been edited by dennis6 (edited November 29, 2001).]

KED85

After reading the blower article, I figure I'll get a 3.4 block, stick the street legal blower set up on it & add street legal headers!

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

Black 86 'bird

did he do anything in the drivetrain? tranny beef-up etc?

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2.8 mpfi
My only mod: Flowmaster 40 series
http://www.geocities.com/pita_j2000/...?1002261961590
PICS ARE UP!!

[This message has been edited by Black 86 'bird (edited November 29, 2001).]

dennis6

If your refering to the Fiero. I belive the answer is no. The getrag 5 speed will handle a TPI 350 easily. Go to www.v8archie.com for more info on that.

Camaro_hunter_d

what about all these S/C kits I keep hearing about? where they at?....

camaro6spd

I never said anything about hating V6s...I just think that what that huy is claiming and from the info posted there is no way he could making that power. How much Power is he making without the NOS? Hell I could put NOS on a 4 and make it as fast as a worked Big Block (as seen at the drag strip with my own two eyes......Jap 4 agaist a 68 Camaro BB, the Camaro came back in the end but the Jap car took off the line like a bat out of the ****ing hottest hell you can think of.

Camaro_hunter_d

LS1 have you ever watched off road races? alot of the Buggies and customs run the 2.8/ 3.1 platform beacuse it can make good power. I have seen 375 Twin Turbo 3.1 on the web. And some of these off road teams are getting almost 400 ponies form this engine. They have the luxury of making custom headers and reworking the intake like I plan on doing soon.

V6camaroman

thats a pretty cool engine

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both f-bodys off the road now. bought a 1968 ford galaxie (aka:the rust bucket). best $100 i ever spent. faster than hell though. more mods for that soon. the 3 modos of life.1 never get less than 12 hours of sleep.2 never play cards with a guy that has the same name as a major city.3 always drive an f body.

Black 86 'bird

Sorry no, I was talking about the camaro. Where from in ohio?


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2.8 mpfi
My only mod: Flowmaster 40 series
http://www.geocities.com/pita_j2000/MyFirebird.html?1002261961590
PICS ARE UP!!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I have a little information on this particular topic. Before I go on, I'd like to point out that I don't doubt 60* V6's can make a lot of power, but I do doubt that the combination above made as much power as the owner estimates. I really doubt a 60* V6 can be made to make the same power as a 350 as cheaply and reliably. Back to 1fst2m6. The car he has now is a 87 Fiero GT that I found in a repairables lot and told a friend about. That friend did some repairs and traded the GT to Travis (1fst2m6) for his 86 SE that supposedly had $10k in mods and ran 12's on NOS, and low 14's NA in the 1/4 mile. Travis drove the car all the way up here to South Dakota to make the trade. The car my friend got was a well used Fiero with a 2.8 (with rod knock) and a nice selection of parts (accel coil, MSD 6AL, custom headers, no cat, single exhaust, K&N, Nitto tires, suspension listed below, nonstock 2.8). It was his deal, so I won't go into whether it was worth it or not, but I will go into my impressions of the car, and of a supposed fast Fiero. I've ridden in, and driven this car. The car was EXTREMELY uncomfortable. It had eibach springs, 91 camaro base model seats, and koni shocks, all of which contributed to a ride that killed my back. I've driven an fbody that was prepped for serious autoX and it was 110% more bearable than this fiero. Second the clutch that was required was touchy at best, it was either on or off. The engine (without NOS) had more power than a stock fiero 2.8, but it wasn't close to stock SD LB9 automatic. Within months the engine was just about dead. My friend used various oil additives and 50W race oil to keep the knock under control, but in the end the car was left smoking badly and knocking. When we took the car to the track it ran several high 17 second 1/4 trips, a couple 16's and a best of 15.9. Currently the car sits engineless in my friends driveway and the engine sits at the machine shop. My friend ended up spending enough money getting a 60* V6 to make power and be dependable that he still won't say how much the bill is. When its done it'll be an internally balanced 3.2L V6. But for what he spent on the engine he probably could have bought another fiero. I'd say thats a safe assumption since he had and sold an 87 GT, 85 2M4, to help pay for the engine and he still doesn't have the engine.

The last I checked the GT that 1fst2m6 has now was described pretty closely to the SE as far as performance. My guess is its probably every bit as uncomfortable and unreliable as the SE.

Now I don't know about you guys, but spending more on rebuilding my 3.1 than I spent on the car and having a car thats still uncomfortable and unreliable, doesn't sound like fun. At the same time for what you would spend on rebuilding a 2.8 or 3.1 with quality parts, you could swap to a used 350 that would be reliable and have more potential. Not to mention the possibility of selling a V6 car and picking up a well used L98 car and not having to change anythign to run low 14's.

By any of this I don't mean any disrespect to my friend or any fiero owners or 60* V6 owners, just to point out the reality of the situation. Also before you decide to go wild with a V6 keep in mind the example 1FST2M6, has a full shop with a dyno at his disposal to work ont he car.

Just a difference of opinion.

dennis6

I was just saying it was possible. Myself I would rather have a v8 Fiero for the amount of work he put into the car.

86bird_28v6_5spd_ramair

i beleive the key is right here.

"The intake from manifold up was gasket matched. "

depending on how mis match the stock gm parts are, he could of gotten the power from there, combined with the other stuff that lt it breath a little bit more.

he basically did a port n polish job where it counts most.


more air can make a big diffrence, with my ram air, when it kicks in (2nd 3000rpm) it feels like the power band on a dirt bike, it just starts pullin.

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cnt spel, grammar what? so sue me!
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5SPD___2.8___RAMAIR
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gumbysworld.com

86bird_28v6_5spd_ramair

another comment, on those who would rather spend the cash on a v8, why get all that weight.

on ebay u can get that 300 hp 3.4 like 1500

that is more than plenty to make a 3rd gen move.

and with out adding a bunch of weight.

then add nitro.




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cnt spel, grammar what? so sue me!
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5SPD___2.8___RAMAIR
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gumbysworld.com

KED85

Please provide a link to this 300HP 3.4
I could use a laugh!!!
Hell, why waste the money?
I'll be impressed when ya "do" this mission (make a 300HP 3.4).
In the mean time, I still await funds for my 3.4 1985 Fuel pump in tank job.
Damn.
$800 for 160-170 HP & 200 Ft Lbs of torque is reality, not living in "OZ".
Spend your time & money wisely.
But, never stop dreaming.
That's how you "may get closer" to what ya dreamed, to begin with, but, have to settle for reality & reliability.
Excpet when it gets held up by lousy old worn out fuel pumps in gas tanks!
Or trannys that can't take any fun!



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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

camaro6spd

all that weight.....ummm yeah but the power to cash to weight ratio far surpasses that of a V6 If not then the V6s would be running closer to the V8 in the 1/4 mile and on a autox track for that matter. Hell I am not saying I don't like V6s...I wanted...still want to put one in the S15 with the blown 2.8 and throw a could cheap mods while I am at it....but I don't plan on go hog wild....If I did you would see a 350 TPI sitting in that Frame.

c-5invalid

http://www.users.qwest.net/~racing2win/mild2wld.htm GM said that "Production V6/60 (FIERO) blocks are suitable for high-performance street use, off-roading and limited competition applications. Production V6/60 (FIERO) blocks used in SCORE/HDRA off-road racing routinely produce over 270 horsepower..."

Monkie

"I don't own a Fiero, but I do own a Camaro with the 2.8L V6.
I have done a fair amount of work on it. I bumped the power up to 230 HP and 210 TQ at 4400 rpm."

Im am at a loss of words....I didnt know we could get that much out of the 60*s.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

While its possible to build a 60* engine to make that kinda power, it either won't last long, or it'll cost more than virtually any other rebuild. Not to mention when you're done it'll still be less HP and TQ than a solid 305. If you're just running down the dragstrip a sprayed 2.8 or 3.1 might not be a bad idea, but for a daily driven car that you use for long trips, etc the durability, dependability, and user friendly-ness that you need won't be there.

silverstreakII

ok guys, heres my take...
that guy is BS. you dont gain almost 100 horse off a cam and intake port, and exhaust on a 60*. Dont list the rings bearings and pistons as a mod. if he was setting it up for NOS and a s/c, i could see there use, but in a setup for a sc youd need to lower the compression, which sorry guys, but that hurts ya real bad till you throw on the sc. and even if he didnt lower the cr, hed have stock cr, and i dont care if the pistons are forged, they weigh the same or more as stock and and do not lighten up the rotating assembly, and keeping the cr stock makes it not a power adding mod, just a durability one. so a cam, exhaust, ported intake and ignition =100 hp on a v6? id love to see what those mods do for an 8. oh wait, ive seen it before. most dont top a 70 horse gain. just my .02

Graeme'sFirebird

Monkie, that site is from a fiero site, and hes posting some crap about about a camaro thats why it said that.

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1972 Chevy Chevelle "Malibu"
Hooker Headers, Flowmaster 40 series mufflers, accel 8.8 wires,Edelbrock performer intake Edelbrock Carb, Msd Blaster 2 Coil, Torque Thrust "D" wheels
Coming Up
Hei conversion, Msd digital 6, Stock Cowl Induction Hood, K&N Filter w/ Xtreme Air Lid
Click here for my Malibu information
In Memory of #3 Dale Earnhardt

86bird_28v6_5spd_ramair

KED85


im not sure of the link,, it that guy with the fiero parts that sell that engine, onhis site it is over 2000 but he usually has one on ebay starting at 1200 i think, last time i saw one on ebay, it was around 1500 and about to end.

just gotta watch ebay now n then.

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cnt spel, grammar what? so sue me!
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5SPD___2.8___RAMAIR
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gumbysworld.com