Project 3.4 Camaro

Anyone got any idea if I could cut an access hatch for the fuel tank, with the tank in the car? Car died, and I am reasonably sure the fuel pump went out, but really don't want to hassle with taking apart half the rear suspension, draining the tank and all that bs, problem is I can't exactly just go at it with a dremel sending sparks all over the place for obvious reasons, but Idk what else I could use if anything that could cut it without risk of blowing myself up.

Either way I want to make an access hatch, but would love to not have to drop my tank...

Gumby

RANT

Why don't people atleast read the threads on the first page of this forum???
Been asked dozens of times, on the first page.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...fuel-pump.html

And your not the only one, we got 3-4 fuel pump threads, asking the same stuff yet they can't find any info they say.

Camaro305SB

I honestly think Im one of maybe ten people in the world that thinks its a bad idea, that you really should just drop the tank (I guess cutting into the metal of a unibody car doesn't bother most people). Soak the bolts in some GM heat valve for a day or two (spraying them maybe twice each day) and they usually come loose. If not, they break, then you fix it. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be working on cars in the first place.

Gumby

Great idea if the problem is straight forward and fixed 100% doing just that.

If you end up going back in more then once, your gonna get pissed off.


Mine wasn't the pump alone, a whole sulry of mystery problems and been back in there a good dozen times and not in a row, weeks apart, if I had to drop everything in the rear more then 3 times, I would of set it on fire.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Firstly I already read those threads, secondly, the only thing I'm really asking here is wtfh I can cut into that metal with that won't get me an ambulance ride, I know all about dropping the tank and what not, and if I can avoid it I would like to, fact is I will most likely be in there again at some point and would like to not have to go through all that any more than I have to.

Do I know how to test if it is my fuel pump thats bad, yes, do I know how to replace it, yes, do I know how to go about putting in an access hatch yes, problem is its winter, I have no garage, little time, and even less money, and would like to do this the easiest way possible in lieu of that, so I am wracking my brain trying to think what I might cut the metal with that doesn't involve heat or spark because its dangerous, I am contemplating using a jigsaw, holesaw, handsaw, tin snips or something, just don't want to tear up the metal more than necessary, or blow myself up in the process.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I'm with Camaro305SB. I've even welded OVER fuel pump access doors hacked into my cars (with the tank out obviously). It just isn't that hard to drop the tank.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Cutting the floor isn't an issue. Mine was cut with the tank in place. Cutting through the lines is where I would worry. Not sure if A:Your gonna get sparks & light off the tank B: if your gonna end up with metal shaving in the chassis side line that stays behind & how would you get the shavings out of that part since it is still in the car? Guess you could get under the car, disconnect it at the filter area & clean the lines out after getting it off, but that doesn't help you with the possible spark problem.

I say drop the tank, cut the lines & do your access door mod, then you'll never hafta drop the tank again to mess with the pump or pump's filter.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Oh yeah.....If you use a tubing cutter, that solves the possible spark problem but spinning it around the lines while still in the car is tricky, but it can be done.

Bobby Suth

iTrader: (2)

U might be able to get some metal cutting shears from somewhere like lowes at about 150.00. drill a half inch hole or so to get the tip of the tool in and cut a little at a time so to make sure your in the right spot.No sparks and it will not go away from the body enuff to hit anything.then make a patch and use self taping metal screws with sealant tape or good silicone caulk. As for me though I'm droping my tank.My body is worth more to me than a day or two work.Plus ya can re-seal the tank and clean it while out.I like that!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

There's a pic floating around somewhere of the dimensions of an access hole...

Yes, I would rather do this with the tank out, and I shall. However, in your case, I'd either use the nibblers described above or a Dremel with a cutoff disc (or about 6 discs, actually). The cutoff discs are small, and Sears has some that will supposedly last almost forever (catalog only, I think). However, using the nibbler requires a rather large hole, and I don't think you want to end up cutting a hole in your gas tank that's about an inch around or so...

Project 3.4 Camaro

dremel will send sparks flying.....its the thing i would most like to use, I could easily do it with the dremel, but I rather like not being blown up...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I'm well aware of that. So does welding. You're outside, with plenty of ventilation (I hope). There's no way, unless you cut into the tank or lines, that you'll get enough of a vapor build up under there to cause an explosion. That's why I'm going to post up the pic if I can find it. The hole clears the lines well and the discs aren't big enough to reach down into the tank when using the Dremel motor unit.

Get under there and take the 4 screws off of the muffler heat shield, drop the tank maybe an inch if you're worried about it.

:edit: Not my pic, got it from a pic posted on here some time ago. I'd go a little wider and about another inch farther forwards to avoid the steel lines.

Project 3.4 Camaro

well, my main concern is that it might not be sealed perfectly, or may even have a hole in the top or something, I have smelled gas in my interior before which worries me.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Just seal the pickup & sending unit in the tank good. My access hole has been wide open for about 5 years now & I never get any fumes inside my car. Even the carpet has a flap cut in it, so not even the carpet is really providing much sealing effect.

Bobby Suth

iTrader: (2)

how close is the tank to the body of the car.1inch or is there more or less room?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

3/4" tank to floor, IIRC. I've posted before, just gotta find it to double check. My pic is gone on my PC to look at.

Found thepic in my Photobucket. More like 7/8".

Gumby

I used an air chisel for mine, which don't make sparks as it ripes the metal.
But it doesn't make as much of a mess as you think. Just use a pair of vise grips with the square blocks on the jaw to clean the edge, ended up a tight fit when put back, almost held itself in place as you don't lose metal from the cut.


about fumes, the tank vent is right down in that area, also rust could be an issue, anywhere in the rear cabin if a rust hole goes to the outside, it will suck fumes from under the car into it.

I chased some fumes for a while, then found some rust behind the taillights.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Well, fortunately the rear half of my car is actually in really good shape rust wise, all but the rear right quarter panel, it had a big chunk missing right behind the wheel, shop put some new sheet metal, but when they looked it over I think they missed a little rust hole down in that well where the spare tire went, also there is a uniform hole down there that looks factory, which makes no sense cept if there used to be a bolt there for the jack, which is my best guess. I'll be tackling this sometime this week no doubt, still not sure how I will procede though, one thing I'm thinking about is how to put a hatch in, once the hole is cut, like how do most ppl go about that, just use the sheet metal sqaure they cut out? And then just seal it with caulk or something and pull it off next time they need into it? Or is there some sort of trap door thing they make or get?

Gumby

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...-previous.html

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I think on mine I've decided to weld up the P/O's hack job. My main reasoning? In order for the access panel to work, you have to cut the lines of the sending unit and then reconnect them somehow, thus making 4 MORE connection points that could ultimately leak.

I'm not saying they will, if done right, but I just paid ~$150 for this new sending unit and I don't think I'm gonna cut it all up, just quite yet. That, and I keep rolling the idea of having a hole in a unibody car and it just keeps haunting me....

I may eat those words after I get the old tank out to switch everything, but at this point.....

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tur...utes-less.html

Project 3.4 Camaro

Anyone know the actual name for this cutting tool? From what I gather its more or less what firemen use to cut ppl out of cars.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Agreed, it's just as hard as any 80's/90's GM car.


Just drop the tank, there is too much internet hype about things like this and it's making people lazy. It's also a good time to inspect the tank for leaks, check out your brake lines, rear shocks etc...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, hmmm... That all depends on how many parts you have to replace that don't have anything at all to do with the fuel system. And how many bolts have frozen in the rear suspension from sitting for so long.

I'd rather just cut the hole than have to replace stuff I didn't plan on spending hundreds of dollars on. Especially if I get my hands on a hatch from a W-body and weld the bracket under the hump so it's done right.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

You are really going to weld something in with your fuel tank in place?

I have no problem with someone doing it "right". Problem is that 1% of people do it right. The rest hack the hump up and then glue some thin piece of metal over the top using bathroom silicone.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

The W-body cars already have an Access Door?

<flamesuiton>
OMG...GM must have done the F-bodies right & the W-bodies wrong then! :roflmao:

More like the W-bodies were done right & they dropped the ball on doing the F-bodies!

Gumby

hehehehe

When I did some welding back there I didn't know it was that close. [when I welded all the body seams] Was scary to find out later if I had burned through, probably would of blown up.

If I had access to one of the many gasses you can use that are lighter then air and don't explode, [$30-50 for a small bottle, no regulator needed]
id have that leaking into the area [lay under the area and crack it open], so that whole hump area has the oxygen displaced to help.

Also member a empty gas tank is more dangerous then a full one, its the fumes that explode. [though don't fill it to the brim, spilling fuel out the vents]

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Umm... Car body is in the driveway. Gas tank is in the garage. Been that way for about 3 months now. Besides, it would be kind of tough to weld the lower plate retaining ring (similar to the lower shift boot retaining ring on the trans side of the tunnel for a manual trans) onto the hump with the gas tank in place...

:edit: And yes, FWD W-bodies have an access plate between the rear wheel wells behind the backseat in the trunk. Started when they changed the W platform to FWD.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Sorry for not knowing the current state of your project. Guessed I missed that one in keeping up with every other project car on Thirdgen.

People try to do all kinds of stupid stuff without thinking it through.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, I wasn't even going to weld on the quarter panel with the tank in place. Besides, I didn't know the condition of it and it's better to make sure I don't need a new one (I don't luckily). The fuel lines were bad enough .

Project 3.4 Camaro

They did that with the engines too.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Should I get a 6"x6" access door, 6x14, or 14x14, bear in mind, I would like to use the smallest possible.

Gumby

Since you have yet to do it, it just cut the hole and do the work, then fix what ya got. Some have more success then others as you got the lines to deal with also.

Start small and cut as needed.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Yeah but I will have to cut the hole to a specific size..

Gumby

Well if the smallest dorr is 6x6, you know to start there, but id change the pump before you buy a door.

you'll find out

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Here is what your up against. I would say a 6" x 6" would do it, once you dropped the tank once, cut the lines & had the hatch positioned just right to access just the drop-in piece.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I don't suppose anyone following this thread has done a braided SS conversion?

ASE doc

I'm so glad no one hacked a hole in the floor of my IROC. I'd have been fairly ticked if I had dug into the back and found a hole cut. I replaced the intank pump once in my car and have doen several in customers' cars. It's not that bad. Though having the car on a lift is better than on the ground. Still, Ive done it both ways and was never tempted to grab the nibbler and start cutting the floor pan.

What I did do on the IROC beast, to go with the sertious, dual pump, external fuel system I designed for it, was drop the tank one last time, remove the in-tank pump and install a suction tube made of AN10 braided stainless hose. No more tank drops on this car.

Project 3.4 Camaro

They can be nice if done right, problem is most people just hack a hole and duct tape it,

I already cut the hole, just need to finish putting the pump in and decide how to do the access panel, there is one I might buy, but I don't like that it won't come with a gasket, I want something that actually seals, so I might just make it out of fiberglass, buy a hinge, bolt that in, and get some type of rubber and gasket the perimiter so it seals up nice, haven't decided yet, if I don't I will probably just buy the kit and make a gasket for it if my hole is small enough to have the panel overlap it enough to gasket it.

And I'm taking this car to my death bed, so I am sure it will not be the last time I need to get into the tank, plus its only a DD till I get a truck, and I'm more or less building it as a street legal racer, full pin on hood, I have the interior stripped, I am leaving out all the rear trim pieces, going to patch up the rust, then I will either put truck bed liner in it, or am contemplating maybe using fiberglass resin instead with a thin speaker cabinet type of material on top for carpet, resin to protect the sheet metal more than anything, since I am keeping the car I want it to last, paint just isn't permanent or durable enough imo.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Either of you have pics as to how the hole relates to the surrounding metal? I have a pic of another one saved that was ridiculously large.

As for the fuel lines, on a GN/TTA site, one guy showed how he did his TTA access hole. He used compression fittings on the above tank lines. Although, I would probably rather use stainless braided AN fittings (that may even get rid of the GM quick-disconnects on the 3x00 fuel rail lines) if I have the money.

BTW, anyone have a definitive answer on which of the tank sender lines is which, in terms of the return, vapor, and pressure release lines (pressure is obviously the big one)? Kind of forgot which is which (will put a note in the Helms, which doesn't say for sure which is which).

Project 3.4 Camaro

When looking at it from the rear seat area, left to right is, sending, return, then pressure release I think and vapor, not positive on which is which, but I know the first two are correct for sure, also I don't have any pics atm(they are on my mom's camera since I didn't have mine with me at the time), but later tonight I might be able to post some up assuming she picks me up like shes supposed to.
But there are a couple pics in this thread that might help, I more or less cut a square hole to minimize it, but this leaves you with two dilemmas, and I realized why everyone else cut a rectangle almost all the way to the edge of the hump, one reason is to disconnect the electrical wires, you have to reach down behind the rear seat area hump where they actually go through it is where the connector is underneath the car body(I cannot reach it due to my hole position and size..) 2nd problem is I did not leave myself adequate room to cut the fuel lines properly, I wound up cutting the electrical wires, and pulled back some of the conduit and put a screwdriver behind the electrical tape to keep them from going anywhere, the fuel lines I cut with a tree limb lopper, I was fortunate to have a fiskars pair, not sure I would attempt it with a run of the mill pair...but I will have to get creative on the recut, and recutting on the sending side was a pita, eventually I am going to run SS all lines, speaking of vapor canister btw, I want to just altogether remove that stupid thing(I don't like unneeded crap in my engine bay), beyond removing the line for it and the canister itself, what do I have to do? I know its there to collect vapors, but isn't that redundant because of the pressure release line? And do you know where that one leads?

Last but not least, if this helps you know which the last two lines are, I can tell you that the first of the two(from left to right) just goes through the sending unit and stops shortly after, its just an open line there, and can even swivel, the last one is connected to something in the sending unit assembly.
And on a slightly unrelated note, that stupid silver accumulator canister for the AC, what do I have to do to remove that thing, I was looking at some engine pics the other day contemplating where I want to put the m90s, and if I might be able to get some of the heavy things sitting lower(alternator, PS pump namely) anyways, its unneeded crap that I don't want in my engine bay..so pm me if you know how to remove it.

Oh, and as for recutting the lines on the body, I am either going to have to use the dremel, and make sure they are drained of fuel, or I will have to remove the fuel filter(should free up the line? if its not mounted to the tank or hump by a strap, idk if it is....)

Btw if you want to switch to braided SS PM me, I have already priced out and pieced out what parts are needed for it.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Tank pressure release ends in a white bell near the driver's side rear wheel. I know which one that is on mine because that's the only thing left on the 4 tank lines.

Vapor line is held in by a bracket bolted to the body above the transmission once you get the other holders off. Only way to get at that bracket is to pull the trans (been there, tried that). Yes, to do anything with the pressure line in terms of creating space for a recut, you will need to take the fuel filter end off. The filter holds the 2 parts of the line (after a hose between the body line and the tank line) together. Not sure as I'm burned out right now, but I think that there may be a clamp holding the line to the body between...

Possibly a good idea to get a 3-terminal weatherpack connector for the fuel tank sender, using the line as a sort of jumper that's between the sender and the body connection.

Accumulator is held in by a clamp bolt. Make sure your A/C is empty first, as the refrigerant will freeze your skin off in the blink of an eye. And don't try to sell it as it's done for after about 2 minutes of exposure to outside air (something I wish people selling them used would learn).

Project 3.4 Camaro

10-32 S/S PEM nuts
10-32 x 3/8" S/S pan head screws

Can anyone translate that or tell me where I might buy such things?
Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tur...utes-less.html

After contemplating for some time I do NOT like the setup of the panel I was thinking of buying, it has no gasket and wouldn't seal anything really, would just cover up the hole, and that just wasn't good enough, I want to basically do exactly what this guy did, only exception being I will make a fiberglass panel instead of a metal one. I wish it was warmer, I have some plans for this newly discovered stuff...I never would have thought fiberglass was as easy to work with and make stuff out of as it is...going to fill in the bumper to fender, and bumper to quarter panel gaps to smooth out the body lines a tad, going to shave off the thumb tap on my gas cap and put a popper in I think, eventually I might reroute it to the license plate and shave it altogether, and last but not least, I am considering covering my interior sheet metal with glass resin instead of truck bed liner....still haven't decided, each has cons and pros, truck bed liner is more permanent, harder to get off, unless its just rubberized coating, its also rougher texture, but on the other hand resin would be slippery and I would pretty much have to put carpet over it, but it would also be clear so if for whatever reason the body sustained damage or started rusting it would be visible, truck bed liner would cover it up...last but not least, I think resin would actually slightly improve structural rigidity in the car.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're worried about weight, right? Don't think covering the body in resin would be any lighter than the carpet you've pulled. That would be a LOT of resin.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Any reason the vent tube can't just vent right above the tank? And SOFB about the vapor line, because I HAD my transmission out at one point, I am sure as hell not pulling it again just for that, pita when you are working with jackstands. Didn't even think of a connector for those wires, thats a good idea, never really occurred to me that such a thing was out there, Would I need anything special to connect the wires to it? Cause unfortunately I do not own a soldering gun yet. As for the AC, WHAT AC? lol, I removed that so long ago, who the hell options a car with AC AND t-tops anyways, honestly. Funny story.... at the time I knew next to nothing about cars and thought I was removing the starter, luckily it was dead...haha....and I have all but given up on selling parts, I can't even get rid of my intake, or egr, or throttle bodies, or crank, or pistons or rods, let alone some obscure thing like the accumulator. Anyway, where is the clamp bolt, and what about the pipe running into the firewall or what I think to be the heater box more accurately?

Project 3.4 Camaro

It would be thin, and that carpet is a lot heavier than you might think, due to it being molded and rubber backed, I would guess its about 50 lbs of carpet, and I think a gallon of resin at most would do it, not talking about anything uber thick here, and just think how much a typical glass hood weighs, well hell, lets take mine fore example, after I put that sob on the atkins it weighs in at 30 lbs, and thats with cloth, and a lot thicker material, I imagine it shouldn't weigh anymore than 30 lbs, but honestly its one of the few things I am willing to add weight for, because its protecting my investment, I will have this car till one of us dies, I want that sheet metal to last, and paint won't cut it. Plus like I said, it SHOULD make the body less flexible, which would improve the handling, not expecting much, but in theory it should help.

Gumby

Just mebmer metal n glass expand n contract at different rates, why ya see folks using wood when they build stuff with glass, even car bodies often have wood in them instead of metal, as wood is about the same as glass, I could see the whole resin layer coming lose after a while.

Project 3.4 Camaro

That did actually occur to me, but I think it should be ok if I keep it thin enough, fiberglass does have some flex to it, as long as the body is rigid enough, and the fiberglass can flex to whatever extent the body can I think it will hold up, SFCs will certainly help minimize the flex, but unfortunately I need a new driverside pan first. In the meanwhile I will work on the areas with no rust or repairable rust, pass side pan should be ok, has some but it should be removable.

Btw would wax paper adhere to curing fiberglass? I can't recall what works for releasing agents/molds.

Gumby

good site

FIBERGLASSFORUMS.COM

some use duct tape

Project 3.4 Camaro

For those of you strongly against access panels, well I got the new pump in and nada, wouldn't prime or kick on with ignition, I juiced it 12v right at the wires coming out of the sending unit, nada, guess what I had to do, pull the sending unit, guess how long it took me, bout 2m instead of 4 hours of freezing my butt off and getting snow down my backside-its already earned its worth, turned out I hadn't plugged in the pump connector all the way.
Long story short, I sure am glad I cut that panel in, now to find someone to help me jump the battery and see if this ol' beast will spit fire again now that the pump is in and working, wish me luck, she's a stubborn one...