Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

My first post on these boards after months and months of lurking...feels good.

It's come to the point however, that I need to ask advice, because understanding much of what I read is a little beyond me. I have a 1986 Camaro Sports Coupe. That's the 2.8L MPFI, it has an automatic transmission, no overdrive I believe. Pretty base as it seems. Anyway after reading and reading about how to improve it without swapping the engine I've come to the realization that ultimately I want to turbo the engine. I've read the sticky post on the turbo'ing, I don't recall if it can be done on my engine though.

As it stands, the first and foremost thing I had to decide where I should modding the car from. I figured that I would start from the exhaust system, and then suspension system, and finally the engine and turbo. I'm on step 1 at the moment, having bought a bunch of exhaust system stuff. I bought a dynomax exhaust system, magnaflow cat, pacesetter headers, new header bolts etc.

A couple of things I'm wondering from the get go, do I have to replace any of the O2 sensors(or all of them) after replacing the exhaust system? Secondly should I do suspension work, or engine work first? Thirdly, how do I figure out which gears and posi-rear I would need for my car as well as if it would even work on it, and finally probably the most asked question on these boards, where can I expect to set my goals, in terms of horsepower when I finally get to the turbo?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

If you're going to go turbo later, you'll probably end up replacing 2/3rds of the exhaust at that time since it'll change most of the exhaust plumbing.

If you're replacing the exhaust, you might as well spend the $30 on a new 02 sensor. Thirdgen suspensions aren't bad in stock config. As long as it's in good condition there's no real reason to change it. If you want to go faster, look into LARGE modifications to the engine first. Assuming it's in good tune, runs decent, no smoking or rattles, start looking for a power adder. If it smokes or rattles, start reading up on the engine swap forum. For just about any limited slip for a 7.5" rear, you're going to spend $400-up. It's not an easy driveway job to swap gears or set up a new carrier, so budget a few hundred dollars for the install.

Not to discourage you, but by the time you spend $3,000 on a rear end rebuild with limited slip and gears, a new exhaust, turbo setup, and mechanical maintenence/upgrades to support the new power without constantly breaking down, you're into the same price range as just buying a decent V8 car. Or you could spend the same or a little more money and swap in a LS1. You really have to want a fast V6 to justify it.

Fallen2603

If you're going to keep the engine you have, the exhaust system would be nice for now, and then, when you're ready to install the turbo, just do a remote-mount turbo set-up. That way, all you have to do, is cut through the exhaust pipe a little ways after the rear-axle, weld on a flange, and bolt the turbo to that. The plumbing is a little more interesting that route, but, at least, you'd be able to reuse/modify the parts that you've already bought/got.
The basic bolt-on-power upgrades for the engine are definitely a good idea. Having your heads ported/polished for the best flow, along with an upgraded valvetrain, would be near the top of my list, too. That includes a cam. Make sure your bottom end is strong enough to handle the boost, and is in good working order.
I have to agree with Drew. By the time you put all this money in, you probably would have had a faster V8 car for the same price. The power goal is more or less up to how far you want to go. Most guys I've seen up here say not to take the older 2.8/3.1L engines much past 400RWHP. The webbing starts to give on these blocks at that level.
It's pretty much how far YOU want to take the engine.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

I'm very happy to get such great feedback. First and foremost, I'm totally aware I could've went down the v8 road, and it may have been better off for me; however, this project isn't so much what's beneficial for me as it is what's beneficial for my knowledge. This is my first project car, and I really want to work with what I have(exceptions would be changing the transmission to standard, and stroking the engine to 3.1). The point of all this is to have a bona-fide learning experience.

Essentially, my goal is somewhere around the 300HP range, I feel that's more than enough to be fun, and a daily driver at the same time. The car is meant to keep me grounded to a realistic experience while I'm studying my life away for med school. But that's besides the point. I suppose what both of you are saying is start with the engine work then move to the suspension if I wanted to paraphrase?

Another thing, I wasn't aware that you had to port and polish new parts that are bought such as the headers. Thanks for the info, I'll be sure to get that done before I bolt it on.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Why stroke the 2.8 when you can get a 3.1 already complete (remove old, which you're going to do anyways, and drop in "new") for the same price as the stroker kit? Or, better yet, a 3.4 from a 93-95?

If you want 300 HP, you're going to want to start with a 3.1 or 3.4, more than likely the 3.4. With the 3.1, you don't necessarily have to change the pistons. But, with the stroked 2.8 and the 3.4, you do, but especially with the stroked 2.8 as it will already have high compression. And then you'll change to late model cylinder heads, camshaft, RKSport headers (PaceSetter ports are too small for the head ports), 1.6:1 rocker arms, double roller timing chain, and distributorless ignition (no dizzy on the 3x00 heads as the intake won't allow it). It's not cheap, but doable.

Fallen2603

I'll go with Maverick H1L, that if you're looking for 300RWHP, start with the 3.4L out of the '93-'95 Camaro/Firebird. If you're looking for 300HP at the flywheel/crank, the 2.8L will probably be enough. Are you going to rebuild the enigne? If you're keeping the iron heads off of the 2.8L, the PaceSetter headers will work. If you're going with a 3x00 head/manifold swap, the PaceSetter headers won't work. Go with the RKSport headers like Maverick H1L suggested if you're going with the 3x00 head/manifold swap.
Yes, I'd start with the engine work. Suspension stuff is easier to work on than engine stuff. Hell, you could probably replace just about every shock, sprink, and bushing in a day or two.
LOL! No, you don't have to have the headers ported/polished. I meant the cylinder heads. About the only thing I'd suggest for the PaceSetter headers is to have them ceramic coated, if they aren't already.
GOOD LUCK!

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Looking for an engine day to day now. To bad the junkyards around here suck.

I'm not sure if I will do the head/manifold swap, however I do intend on getting all the internals redone with new performance stuff.

Didn't really mean in the sense of ease. I was talking in terms of price, if you think it's a better route to go with the cheaper suspension stuff first vs doing the more expensive engine work first.

I say stupid things sometimes.

Fallen2603

You looking for a 3.4L out of a 4th-Gen? You might have better luck finding a 3x00 motor to swap in. A lot of the other V6 guys on here are going that route. Purple82TA is swapping a FWD 3500 V6 into his '89 Camaro. I'll be going a similar route.

What are your plans with "getting all the internals redone with new performance stuff"?

Oh, I understand, now. Hmmm...it's more about which direction you want to go with the car first. My '90 Camaro is my project car that I really don't need right now. I have an '06 Cobalt SS for a daily driver, and the Camaro is my work in progress. I'm taking my time with the Camaro and trying to do her up right the first time. It all depends on your situation with which area of the car you tackle first.

LOL! Who doesn't, man?! No harm, no foul.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Well the reason I'm doing that is for simplicity sake. I mean there's a whole guide here on how to do it. And from what I've been reading it seems as though that's what people have done when they eventually intend to turbo their car.

Forged pistons, rod, better camshaft etc.

Well I want to get as much done on the car as I can, so I can drive it to school before school resumes in early september. I'm really hoping to do the motor swap and tranny swap before then. But that's really besides the point, I want to get as much information as I can on my plans for the car(the turbo) as possible now, so I know what goals I have to set financially.

Fallen2603

LOL! Yeah, true enough. Most of them just swap a bigger/stronger engine in there. Your 2.8L could handle a lot of abuse, but it doesn't have much room left to build up on...

The connecting rods in these engines are already forged. I'd keep those, but go with larger, forged pistons. So, you're rebuilding the block before the beginning of this school year, or at a later date?

Fair enough. Just seems to me that you have to pick more of a direction before you can plan much further.

Keep it up!

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

I was enlightened to that fact in this thread, thanks again to everyone.

This is where it gets fuzzy for me. If I can find one sometime soon, before mid-Julyish I'd have the time to do the swap as well as swap the transmission(just found a really good condition T5 tranny in good shape). The closer it gets to the beginning of the semester before I find it, the harder it becomes to do the swap before then. With work and everything is why time because such an important player.

Hm, what do you mean by more of a direction? Isn't 300-400 RWHP a direction?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

IF you want to see 300 WHP, you'll NEED to swap to the late model heads. Ported to the max, the stock heads barely flow as well as the smaller exhaust port on the small-port 94-99 3100 cylinder heads (maybe the 3400 heads, not sure). The intake port on the newer heads flows even better. Do yourself the favor of swapping the heads now before you hit the 200 HP "wall" that's designed into the iron heads.

And don't use bolts on the exhaust headers/manifolds. There's stud kits out there. Don't forget to upgrade the brakes, either. What's the point of having tons of "GO" if you have no "STOP" ?

Fallen2603

Uh, yeah, if you want 300-400RWHP you're pretty much gonna have to go with 3400 or 3500 heads and manifolds. When you were saying 300HP earlier, I thought you meant at the crank. I'm gonna have to side with Maverick H1L on both points. Brakes ALWAYS come in handy...LOL!

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Now I'm a bit confused. If I'm swapping the motor to a 3.4L, am I not swapping everything? By late model do you mean later than 93-95?

I will definitely keep that in mind.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

By late model, I mean 2000+ model year heads on the 3.4 RWD block.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Ah understood. Would the heads be the only thing that I would need to swap? And by need, I also mean could swap?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Heads and everything above the heads (intake, fuel rail and injectors). You'll also need custom length pushrods or a set from a 93-95 pre-roller cam 3100 engine with a rocker stud kit (used instead of the factory roller rocker pedestals and their bolts) and roller rockers. And the RKSport headers would kind of be mandatory as the head ports are just a bit larger than the primaries on the PaceSetters. Can't forget that you can also switch to DIS rather easily with a 3.4 block as it's already set up for the DIS system (and you would need to as the FWD heads and intake don't have the room for the dizzy). And, if you really wanted to get complicated, you may even try for SFI (but I am not 100% sure if the thermostat housing interferes with the cam sensor).

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Hm, iirc don't all the 3.4L engines out of those 93-95 Camaro's come SFI? In terms of the headers, is it worth it getting the RKSport one's when I plan to turbo the car anyway?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yes, the 3.4 comes SFI, but the car it's going into doesn't. And this requires extensive modification of the engine harness. As I said, the 3.4 has the cam sensor, but most people swapping prefer to use the MFI system as it's less complicated and merely plug and play (and the SFI reverts to MFI at higher engine speeds anyways as the ECM can't keep up with the injector pulses). You could remove the cam sensor, but it would cause an oil leak, as the bottom of the bore is right at the camshaft. Oh, and I'd use at least one header (on the driver's side). And another thing, the RKSport headers would need a slight adjustment to fit as they are for 4th gen cars and one of the primaries needs some tweaking to work. Not sure which one or where, but that's what I've read on here.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

This is some really golden information thanks for that. Maybe you can answer this question then. Do I have to change the computer or ecm when swapping the engine? I know down the road with the turbo I will, but for now, just for the initial swap.

Confused me a bit here, sorry. By using one header, you mean one group of headers for the driver side? And to my knowledge, I thought headers had to be fabricated when turbo'ing a car. At least that's what it seems like having read a couple of different threads here.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

No, you do not have to swap the ECM system to swap engines. It's all plug and play. You don't need to swap the ECM to switch to DIS, either. Just get a chip from an FWD car with the 302 ECM (J-body, N-body, etc) to get the proper spark advance (60* advanced compared to dizzy ignition).

You can fab up both headers or you can use part of the down pipe for the driver's side header to run over to the pass side of the engine, where most people put the spooly thing. The pass side DOES need to be fabricated.

Headers come in pairs. One for each side. Hence, driver's side header.

Fallen2603

Maverick H1L
Will the RKSport headers need to be slightly modified, besides the slotting of the holes, to work on 3500 cylinder heads? I remember we talked about this earlier on my Turbocharged V6 Build thread, but just wondering if you'd found out any new info...

Project 3.4 Camaro

My turn to give my 2 .
Firstly whoever said that 2/3 of the exhaust will be replace anyways, was indeed correct, the best place to start would've been the engine itself, followed by the rest of the drivetrain, and the suspension last.
2ndly, being that you plan to turbocharge, you certainly do not need a 3.1 or 3.4, if you were trying to 300 hp N/A, then I would say swap by all means do a swap, as 300 hp is really pushing it for an N/A 2.8, albeit probably doable with a hybrid swap and very large cam, though this would also be 300 bhp, not at the wheels.

But since you're going turbo, If 300 hp is ALL you want, and you don't care about having any more power than that, honestly all you really need is a cam, a turbocharger, and some injectors, although a set of 1.6 roller rockers, stiffer valve springs, and head and intake porting will help, though they are not necessary.
Though if you're looking for that at the wheels you're going to need about 354, but still probably doable with just a cam, turbocharger, and some porting.

If you want an all out 60/6, the best setups are a 3500 if you want to do a FWD swap, or a 3.4/3500 hybrid if you want to retain a bolt in RWD block platform, either one is probably capable of 400 bhp N/A if maxed out, or probably 600 or so if turbocharged, possibly more.
As for as an automatic transmission, manuals being faster is a misnomer imo, stock for stock, they generally are, but with a shift kit, the auto wins, but if you enjoy manuals, then go for the manual.
Also, your car is an '86, I may be wrong but I believe autos either came with OD or didn't, I don't think it was an option, so much as in such and such year they all started getting it, in which case you probably do, since mine is an '85 and has it. Stock drivetrain on these cars can take up to about 300 hp reliably, so if you plan on going over, its time to upgrade and get a built transmission and rear end.
To convert to posi you need a posi differential carrier, they're about 300-400$, you also need to make sure it has the same amount of splines as your axles, far as gears go, they cost about $200, and personally the best gear ratio on a rear end for daily driving and still going quick is probably 3.42 or 3.73, or 3.55 if you get a ford rear end, I certainly wouldn't go higher than 4.10 on a street driven car, and any lower than 3.42 is pointless.
Hope all that helps.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The RKSport headers MAY have to have a primary or 2 massaged to fit. I don't know of anyone on here who has one, but it may help to ask who has the older 4th gen 3.4 headers and how they got them to work.

As for which transmission is faster in the long run, I'd have to say the T5. This is, of course, with the 5th speed gears swapped out for a set from a V8 car (.65:1 OD vs .70 for the 700R4 and .76/.78 for the V6 T5) or with Ford parts (seen .72:1 5th gears on eBay and almost bought them... There's lower gears as well). However, the T5 has a weak case that tends to blow around 3-400HP (not sure which, but it ends up like high-horse 60* blocks, split right in half). The internals for the 700R4 are about the same, especially the V6 version. All 3rd gen auto transmissions came with OD (hence the "R" designation in the 2004R and the 700R4). The auto will get up to speed faster due to the torque doubling converter, but the manual will top out to be faster with the V8 OD gears.

A posi rear from a 4th gen can be had for less than a new carrier and axles. A friend of mine who used to be on here just sold a 3.42 posi 4th gen rear a couple of months ago for $200.

Fallen2603

Maverick H1L
Know anyone that could start pointing me in the right direction on those RKSport Headers?
THANKS!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I just posted a new thread on it. Might want to subscribe to keep an eye out for responses.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Figured as much.

Now that I think about it, I've been thinking, I wasn't sure if I was looking for 300HP N/A or turbo'd. But now I do realize, I want to make way more than that after the turbo gets on there.

[/quote]If you want an all out 60/6, the best setups are a 3500 if you want to do a FWD swap, or a 3.4/3500 hybrid if you want to retain a bolt in RWD block platform, either one is probably capable of 400 bhp N/A if maxed out, or probably 600 or so if turbocharged, possibly more.[/quote]

Yep, seems to be the road I'll be walking inevitably.

Definitely going with the manual for the enjoyment.

My transmission came with overdrive.

Any good directions towards these parts? I remember reading somewhere, could've been on GM high performance mag, that the ratio that you have is not only the rear end, but a combination of that and something in the transmission. I don't think they said gear ratio of the transmission. In any case, I want to hit 3.73 for my gears, as I've been doing a lot of reading, opinions look like 3.73 is the opitmal for street/track combo.

And yeah, you've definitely been a huge help. Thanks for all the great info.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

This definitely caught my eye. They really split around that? Huh, then how do I get around that when the turbo setup takes it past that horsepower wall.

And I suppose the gears that everyone speaks about is the rear end in of itself?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The overall gear ratio is that of the gears in the transmission (say .70:1 for overdrive) multiplied by the rearend or final drive gear ratio (3.42:1 for my rearend and possibly yours as well). I'd go or stay with a 3.42 rear if you're going to be pushing that many horses. It's high enough to get up and go and low enough for decent economy. And yes, the gears everyone switches are the ring and pinion in the rearend. You can't really switch out the planetaries in the auto.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Rear end gear ratios have nothing to do with the transmission, its a ring and pinion gear that make up the rear end ratio, 3.73 would be a good choice, as far as upgrading your rear end though, honestly I plan to do it myself and after looking into it, you're better off just getting a new one, because by the time you swap in posi carrier, new axles, new diff cover, gears, and disc brakes to make it better, you've spent about the same a new one costs, imo, a ford 9 inch is a good route to go.
And yes generally when referring to gears people are talking about differentials, also you should know that yes, while a 4th gen rear is a cheap route to posi and disc brakes, I'm not sure its any stronger, but more importantly its wider, so your wheels will stick out more, just an fyi, because it will change the stance/appearance of your car a bit.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Just realized there was a way to multi quote.

As far as I read in the Camaro specs mine is a 3.42 as well. But like I asked before, will I have to swap for another transmission when my hp gets up past the 3-400 mark?

Ah, yeah I was speaking in terms of the overall gear ratio. Do you know where they sell the Ford 9 inch rears? Just want to get a ballpark on the price range of it.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Also forgot to mention, idk which blocks it is offhand, but generally speaking its the earlier revisions that split down the mid, and its also more prone to do so on high hp, high revving N/A motors that are constantly running upwards of 6k rpms around tracks, they basically split at the lifter valley sometimes, but it takes a lot of abuse to get to that point, and I think all the FWD blocks have strengthened lifter valleys, the 3.4 might as well, don't know offhand, but way you can tell is a strengthened one has a kind of criss cross pattern in the lifter valley. But anyway, I don't think its anything to worry about unless you're continuously running around at 8k rpms.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Ford 9" with GM 12-bolt combo is actually even better, according to Chevy High Performance magazine.

I'd go 4th gen rear if you're looking for decent quarter mile times, as it will allow the use of wider tires depending on the rim offsets. Either way, wider is better.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Summit has them, stock drivetrain is good to about 300 hp like I said, but anything more and you're going to want to get a new rear end and transmission, or beef up the ones you have, but I think neither is good past 400, even built, I may be wrong about the trans on this note, but I'm almost positive that thats the limit on a built 10 bolt rear end.

Project 3.4 Camaro

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSR-9BGHDBAJFXX/
Should be a pretty decent rear, Though Idk what kind of power it can handle, hopefully someone else can chime in on that bit.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

The wideness is pretty hot. Anywhere that sells a combo like this? Doubt it, sounds like something that has to be put together haha. Sorry to be a total bother, but what would I need for this combo?

See this is where I'm a little blah on this whole thing. I'm swapping my automatic transmission with a t5 manual one. I'm going to buy the damn thing tomorrow, but if I have to swap it out for something else later, what's the point?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

They're available through places like Summit. However, you may need to order one from Dana (very good rearends) or another manufacturer.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Do they sell them like that? With the Ford 9" rear and the GM 12 bolt?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Imo, contact find a place to rebuild it to be stronger, I did know of a place that was good at it but don't recall, it might have been dana actually though, but I'm not sure, Mav might know.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I have seen segments on shows such as Hot Rod TV or similar where they showed a combo rearend. Basically, what they do is they take the stronger 12 bolt components and put them in the 9" axle housing, using the best parts from both rearends (the gearsets from the 12 bolt and the housing/axle assemblies from the 9"). Call around to places such as Moser, Strange, and Currie to see what they offer. You can also get a 9" housing that will fit your F-body and a carrier from Strange that will allow the use of 12-bolt components (as seen in my April 2003 issue of CHP).

However, I would think that dropping close to the car's overall value just in the rearend is ridiculous on a V6, that will probably never see the power and torque output of a big block. Both rearends they mention in the CHP article were built at a price of over $2K (one of each a 9" and a 12-bolt). Also, when you do call around to the places above, be prepared to possibly be laughed at as most people don't think a V6 can make the power some of the more experienced turbo wranglers are putting out, unless you were talking a Grand National or something. If you're not looking to spend $2K on the rearend, another part of the CHP mag mentions to look for a GM 8.5" rearend (guy was asking about what rear to get to handle about 450 horse).

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Hm that does seem to make loads of sense(financially of course). The 8.5 rear-end goes for around what price?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Imo, ford 9" or 4th gen, either should be sufficient, a new 9" is 1.7k after you get gears for it, but it has posi, 35 spline, disc brakes and what not

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Guys, I'm getting a NWC t5 out of a 82 Spirit for a good price(300 with the bellhousing, gearbox, pressure plate and clutch), just wondering if it's worth it, or if I should look for a WC t5 instead. Is it really that big of a difference? I did some reading and I saw that NWC are made out of all brass. Idk but brass doesn't seem like great material. Opinions?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

There are several differences between the 2. One is that the syncro rings are indeed brass on the NWC and Kevlar on the WC. 2. NWC speed gears on the output shaft and the 5th drive gear on the countershaft all ride on bushings while the WC T5 has needle bearings on all of the above. The WC is obviously more expensive to both buy and rebuild. There are other differences, but I think this will get you started, and I would have to look them up anyways.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I suppose when the time comes for those extreme engine mods I'll just get a WC t5. I figured it was better, but for my purposes now I don't think it will be that big of a deal. In addition, do you know if the driveshaft needs to be changed, and another thing I was reading was that the flywheels are different between the amount of cylinders. For example, the transmission I'm getting is out of a 4 cylinder AMC spirit, whereas my Camaro is a 6.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You'll need a torque arm insulator bracket and the matching catalytic converter bracket. Other than that, you'll want a new clutch and auto trans mount. Everything else bolts up.

You'll need a flywheel from ANY pre-88 2.8 V6. Any newer wheels are unbalanced and will unbalance your crankshaft right out of the bottom of the engine.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Would it be any different for the world class t5 in terms of what I need?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The 2 are the same externally. However, I don't know if any differences exist between the AMC and GM 2.8 input shafts or not in spline count. You might want to see if you can get a spline count on the input shaft for the trans you plan on using.

Fallen2603

DON'T GET THE NWC T5! ESPECIALLY AT THAT PRICE! I WOULDN'T PAY $100 FOR ONE! YOU CAN GET A WORLD CLASS T5 FOR $200! I WILL SELL IT TO YOU!

The Non-World Class T5 cannot be upgraded. Besides, the WORLD CLASS T5 I will sell you came out of a 4th-Gen V6 Camaro. Much easier than hacking, modding, fitting parts. PM if interested. I can meet you halfway for the sale.

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Sent you a pm Fallen.