ok so first, i know that there is a stickied thread that states good parts for my 2.8l firebird but i was wondering what would be the most useful for my money. im just trying 2 get the most power out of my engine as possible with things a learning hobbyiest could do.i dont care if the parts give me 1 hp or 100 hp. all i have now is flowmaster exhaust and a pvc cold air intake my buddy made. all help or suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.

*and if you were wondering i got about 2 grand to spend on my 3rd gen

 

Lucky you, lol.

Do a hybrid!

 

yeah a hybrid, or a turbo, i think if you go another route you might max out that set up and then not have enough change to do much else. but thats just a guess, you've got about 2 grand more to spend on your car than i do lol.

 

I have been reading alot about hybrids but i still dont really get it. is there a thread that discuss' it to a higher extent? cause if it makes me faster then im all for it.

and i dont think a turbo would suite a original 170k miled 2.8, even though shes still running strong

 

Well if you want more power your going to be exerting more force on the engine no matter what you do, and a hybrid would be good for it because it would be just like a rebuild for the engine, but when you put it back together you didnt use the same parts and used some goodies for it haha.

 

Man, if you got $2k, definitely go with a hybrid, as you will have better results with other mods later. You already have a good start with the intake (I just hope the filter isn't in the engine bay as colder air is even better than the increase in warm air the filter setup provides).

Basically, a hybrid uses a set of heads and intake from a late-model V6. The most expensive thing on your list would be dished pistons because the 2.8 pistons would create a compression ratio WAY too high for proper use. Not only that, but you'll need to pick up some pushrods, a crankshaft trigger, and do some work on your existing brackets to make them fit. Then, when you have everything together, you need to get equipment to modify your stock computer chip(s) so you can run the "new" engine properly. For example, I have a set of small-port 3100 heads from a 98 Malibu in the garage. Since my 3.1 already has 12cc dished pistons, I don't need to replace those. With the thicker 3100 head gaskets, I am looking at roughly 30-40 HP and about 40 ft-lbs of torque, on a stock engine.

From there, I would get a full exhaust (headers and a cat-back), replace the catalytic converter if you still have the stock one, and a cat-back exhaust. And then a replacement camshaft if you have money left.

 

just wondering, where else would i put the filter.

and what size pistons do you think would work best

 

Junkyard 3.4L out of a 93-95? Fbody
3400V6 Top end swap
Headers
Cam
Roller tip rockers

The first two would give you probably over 200hp

 

That's before cam, tuning, exhaust and whatnot, right?

 

You could add a couple of pieces to the intake to put the filter around the end of the frame and have it in the cold air space around the front of the radiator.

The 12cc pistons used in the 3.1 would give you about a 11.5 to 12.5:1 CR with the hybrid heads, good for a bit of power. Throw in headers and a cam, and you should be over 200 HP. As Killert said, a set of 3400 or 3500 heads and intake with a 3.4 alone will put you over 200 HP. Throw in a cam and headers, and you'll get even more. However, the 3.4 has a higher CR already than the 3.1 (9.5:1 as opposed to 8.5:1 for the 3.1), so you WILL want to swap to different pistons to keep the CR reasonable (roughly 18:1 with stock pistons). The 3.4 has roughly 8cc dished pistons.

:edit: Yes, jensen, that would be correct. My estimates from my dyno sim program run between 185-195 HP and about 220 torque. That's using the stock cam profile and head flow numbers taken from the 60degreeV6 website.

 

Then there's the weight savings....
Plus the cheap junkyard parts....
I really didn't want to go the hybrid route, but it just keeps looking better & better....

 

You guys need to keep quiet before I get any ideas lol

 

Only downside to the hybrid swap is that my front end already sits about an inch higher than the rear... One of these days, I might get around to replacing my 23 year old coil springs and shocks. And the worn out suspension bushings. And the rest of the stuff on my $5K parts list.

 

just save your money and get a V8 bro.....sike, lol, but I am surprised that no one hasnt said that yet....hum....give it time lol...


hybrid route is where my vote is at, plus its cheaper....I think.


I'll see if I can get you a link of one in process k...




P.S. so I was wondering if you can loan me some green for a set of headers I want... kidding man

 

Maverick and myself are each building one and could answer most questions about them between the two of us....But a 3.4 would be a better starting place its a direct bolt in, drop a 3.4 in with 3500 heads and intake, 3400s would also work, but 3500s would be better as they're larger, they just can't be used on 2.8/3.1s because of the bore size.
Last but not least, yeah, with that money just drop in a 350 and call it a day imo...but if you insist on v6, hybrid is the way to go, 3.4/3500 ideally.

 

i would love to, but i cant find a donor car cheap enough because id have to pay a shop to swap it over for me cause i know for a fact i cant do it myself. thats the only main reason i wanted to try and stick with the 6 cylinder

 

I feel you there. If I had a pickup and an engine hoist (along with room for the hoist in my garage or a driveway in better shape), I'd go to a local yard and snag a 3.4 to put the hybrid parts on.

Anyways, I think 3rd gen RS will probably be finished with his hybrid long before I am... I am going to attempt full SFI, which will require getting a bunch more parts than what I already have, and reworking the camshaft trigger I just got in the mail today.

However, we're not the experts. Go to 60degreeV6.com and join the forums over there. We're both on there, but the unquestioned experts (FirstFirebird on here, for one) are over there more often than they are on here lately.

 

Heh, I was thinking it was the other way around, I have a big fat budget constraint that's going to last at very least a month. And even once I finish its going to need a lot of tuning since I'm attempting the high CR build version. Also should be noted this is my first time working on an engine in anywhere near this kind of extent. Fortunately I'm highly mechanically inclined, but there is still something of a learning process slowing me down. On the other hand I want to drive the thing, so the determination to get it up and running is there.
But my goal is to have the mechanical work finished by like april or march at least, at very latest I want the build on the engine done before next winter.

 

As it is, we're pretty much on the same budget. I may have some money in the bank, but I'd rather it stay there just in case something happens. As it is, I might be finished pulling parts together by fall, unless the guy who owns the yard I usually go to can give me a super deal on the Buick ignition module and parts, and then I still have to find pushrods. Then there's the wiring, and then there's the ECM tuning gear...

 

I'm #1k in the hole right now and make about $700 a month, and spend almost all of that on necessities..

 

Guess we'll have to see, then. Maybe luck will shine on us both and we'll get done at the same time. I'm in the same boat, but I'm not in the hole at current. Almost every penny I make goes either to bills or the gas tank. I just love NY oxygenated crap gas that gets less mileage than any other state besides the Governator's state...

 

Lol, every penny I can spare goes to my Camaro, at any rate I can't wait for us to compare times/dynos, I assume you'll be doing at least one of those when finished?

 

I'll have to see about hooking up with one of the clubs to get to Lancaster (drag strip) or something. I'm also not sure about local dyno shops around here, but I know some people through work that might.

 

well i went to the junk yard this morning, found no 3.4s at all. was a little disapointed cause i had a friend there with a truck that could have took it to my house for me .

and whats worse, check engine light came on today and the shop said my MAF is out and they want 400 to fix it. sounds like a little much?

 

Umm yeah thats just a little bit too much for something like that, do it yourself, Maverick knows all about MAF sensors don't ya Maverick? Haha

 

any idea what would happen if i drove on it with a faulty MAF. cause i dont wanna drive back to the junkyard againn.

 

I'ts like a $40 part I think, just replace it, not that hard, and it meters how much air goes into your engine so that the ecm knows how much fuel to give it, so depending whats wrong with it the car won't run, or won't run well.

 

'Snot funny. 'Nuff said.

That price isn't bad. That is, if they don't cheap out and give you a $50 reman MAF. New GM MAF sensors are around $200, but you're in luck because there is a seller on eBay selling brand new GM AC/Delco MAF sensors for $50. That's where mine is coming from.

Oh, and it doesn't take 2 hrs to put one in, in case they're ripping you off on time and not the part itself. I've done the replacement in less than 3 minutes. Probably even less for a Camaro.

How the car will drive will depend on how the MAF has failed. If it's failed high (putting out a higher signal than normal), the engine will run rich and lack power for the most part. If it's failed low, I wouldn't even bother to attempt to drive the car without getting a new one. However, the code 34 also means that the MAF may not be getting power. Wouldn't it be a real kick in the rear if they just replaced the $15 relay or $.05 fuse and charged you for the $200 MAF?

 

hahahah they are charging 1.8 hours for the MAF to be put in.

and the funny part is, he showed me the diagnostic report and it showed that the MAF was putting out to high and to low a signal. he said it kept changing?? so he just claimed it dead and told me i need a new one even though its running the same as it did before the service engine light came on. but ill go on ebay and order one just to be safe

 

Yeah, the thing takes all of 5s to swap out, its attached via a hose clamp to your air intake box...removing it is child's play seriously.

 

Either that shop was BSing you, or their scanning equipment is messed up. It's almost impossible for the MAF to fail BOTH high AND low. Code 34 usually means lost power. Code 33 usually means the sensor itself has failed. Sometimes one of the codes won't mean what I just posted.

If you know how to pull the codes from the ECM, do so and let us know in another thread. That is more reliable than some crackpot mechanic's report.

 

If you have MAP that replaces the function of what the MAF does right? And is also said to be better I believe? Assuming I'm right I actually have a MAF lying around that I could sell cheap, but I can't 100% guarantee it works since the car didn't run when I bought it, but it should.

 

i dont think they were BSing me because i watched the codes appear, it said something like "MAF sensor, something something, low." and then below that "MAF sensor high". its a little late to do it now but ill check the codes myself tomorrow.

im not quite sure what a MAP is, but how much would u be willing to sell the MAF for. im sure its better then me going back to the junkyard and attempting 2 reuse one from there

 

Idk, like $15 plus shipping I guess, but I need to be sure I won't need it first..Waiting for Maverick to chime in on that. I'm rebuilding the engine as a hybrid and the newer intake manifold uses MAP, which I believe replaces the MAF.

 

Yes, MAP replaces MAF. However, MAF is said to be more accurate because it actually measures the amount of air entering the engine (which is why most newer cars use one). With a MAP system, the computer doesn't know what the exact volume of air is that's entering the intake, so it merely guesses based on manifold air temperature and manifold pressure.

The thing with hybrids is that most of the newer engines actually use BOTH MAF and MAP for optimal air and pressure readings. So you can get away with using either. You're using MAP, I'm going to try MAF. But then, I'm going to try something different altogether. I got the cam trigger yesterday, and I'm already working on how to modify it to fit.

Oh, and if you're keeping your 302 ECM, you can't use a MAP sensor. You'll have to run a 165 or 749 swap (I think those are MAP), or use a 90-92 MAP harness with the 730.

 

Yeah I know, as much as I resent it, because its more money and time and research to get my car running, I'm going to have to do the ecm swap, for that and other reasons. Like bigger than stock injectors and I plan to turbocharge down the road, maybe that's where I read MAP was better? Would that ECM swap be able to use both? Because if it could then I would want to do that if that's the ideal setup.
And completely random, but just out of curiosity have you thought about doing a plenum-less intake at all?
And have you done or plan to do the ECM swap?

 

Around my area in GA you can pick up an IROC-Z for about that price. I would say sell your car and get a third gen with a v8, then go from there. You would be much happier.

 

back on topic.


http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ca...cessories.aspx
^^ this looks my best choice. cause no im keeping this car, so selling it for a v8 is not an option.

that and a 350 turbo trans and i think i should be good. maybe?

 

We really need to start our own thread...

Anyways, obrien, do you have any idea how much you will have to replace besides the engine, harness, and the transmission? Besides, that price is a little steep. If you REALLY want a V8, go to car-part.com and search for yards near you. I guarantee that Hawks is the last place you want to get an engine as they will make sure you pay too much for it. You might as well get a junkyard engine. I doubt you'll get a warranty from Hawks, and the engine will still be a junkyard engine, right?

 

Also, Imo if you want any kind of power potential go for the 350 and not the 305. I've not heard many good things on the 305s.

 

ah good point, keep forgetting i need other pieces that a used crate engine wouldnt give me..back to the donor car idea. and i dont really want a v8, but if the only way im really going to get power from a v6 is by swapping in a different one(3.4), might as well just get a 305. but thats just my opinion. and thats why i made this thread, cause your all smarter then me so your opinion is more important

 

Honestly if you get a v8 don't bother wasting time on the 305, you probably won't be happy with it, unless you only want mild performance, but if you want 300+hp, get the 350. That being said, you CAN get decent power out of stock v6, it just requires a lot of time, money and knowledge, in the end about as much as it takes to swap a v8 in, but once again, all depends on what you're after and what your resources are.

 

in the long run i truely do only want about 200-250 hp. im really not that picky, i just have no knowledge on these types of things. and when u say a stock v6 do u mean a 2.8/3.1 or a 3.4..

 

That HP can definitely be obtained with stock engine, and I mean 2.8/3.1 when I say that, if you do the hybrid top end swap you can even do it N/A I bet. And of course if you only want that much like say at the drag strip, there's always the option of using nitrous. But IMO, sounds like your best option is hybrid swap. Take off your top end and swap in 3x00 heads, LIM and UIM, throw a few bolt ons at it like headers, cam, do a ram air intake and such and you can definitely get those #s, could also consider stroking the engine to a 3.1, which is just a matter of putting in a new crank and pistons, which if you want typical CR you have to. Only thing with the hybrid is, you're pretty much on your own doing the work unless you know someone, most shops won't touch it, they'll just tell you to drop a v8 in. Also it would be an easier build with a 3.4, it's just a better all around starting point for a hybrid. But for those power levels, stick with a v6, it will help keep the weight down and won't kill gas mileage. And if you decide to stroke it, I would just get the 3.4 then too, because at that point the only thing you're keeping stock is your block, and those are cheap..

 

ah thats what i like to see. and i guess it will be a learning experience. but do you know of any sites that would have most of this? dont want to buy cheap stuff.

 

Most of the parts or the info? The former is a lot easier to find than the latter...

 

either or. anything helps at this point

 

Well, first I would need to know what direction you want to take, namely, do you want to start with a 3.4(that would be my suggestion) block, keep your current lower end and just do the top end, or keep your current block, but stroke to a 3.1 and get dished pistons.

 

id probably go with the 3.4 cause everyone ive asked suggested it

 

In that case see if you can find the 3.4 block and internals at a JY, as that would be expensive to ship, once you have the block and internals, you're going to need the heads, and manifolds, use 3500 heads, They might be harder to find since they're on newer cars mainly, try to get them from a JY if not try ebay or craigslist, you'll want the 3500 intake manifolds as well, along with the fuel injection system ie. rails, injectors, FPR, injector harness. Take the 2.8 out of your car, but keep everything, namely you're going to want the accessories like ac compressor, and alternator and such. That should be enough to get you started-buy the big things first. Also, I just remembered that you might have to use dished pistons from a 3400 fwd v6, Idk offhand though something that would need looked into.