jstrdn90rs

Okay guys..after three days..one day for teardown...one for reinstall..and one for adjusting these damn valves 3 times(dont go by any manual..incorrect..even mitchell on demand is wrong)had to remove the plenum three times until I got it right.I got my MTC-5 cam/lifters and ported heads with a nice set of fiero covers on.I finally just fired it up a few hours ago and I am having some issues with the correct timing..I know some say base timing is supposed to be around 12-16 degrees..but I cant get it close to that setting and it dies.If I crank it up in the 20 degree range it will idle.
Thats with the EST disconnected..if I connect it of course it shoots into space.Second,what about Idle Relearn?..you cant set it right when you fire it up cause it wont be right..but you need the RPM's up to break in the cam? I guess I will have to set it once the cam is broke in?..anyone with this cam give me some advice and what they did as far as setting timing?.DO these cams have an advance grind into them?.cause I am guessing it does cause it wants so much timing?.thks

project89

iTrader: (1)

set it to 12 with t he est disconnected,shut the motor off reconnect the est and do the break in. drain refill with oil then do the idle relearn.

its not idling right now cause of the idle relearn
----------
btw i highly recommend u use rotella-t 15-40 oil to break in that cam

jstrdn90rs

Okay I will try that tomorrow and see what happens..thks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With needing to break in a flat tappet don't even worry about setting the timing. You can't set it correctly unless the RPM is too low for proper cam break in. Which risks a flat lobe.

Leave the distributor clamp tight enough so that you can barely turn the distributor by hand. Connect the timing light to #4 cylinder (center driver side).

Fire up the engine and bring the RPM up and hold it. Now twist the distributor so that it runs well. You'll hear it if the timing is too low or too high.

Can also use the timing light to see if the timing is in the ball park. No need for it to be dead on, at 2200 - 2400 RPM and no load the timing will be about 38 BTDC.

Note that #4 will be the same as if the light was on #1. Just that it is easier to get to and the pickup doesn't need to be draped across the engine.

Finish up the cam break in. Will need to block open the throttle or hold it open.

Once the cam is broken in you can let the RPM down, SA should be about 21 - 22 BTDC. Can then open the EST and set it to 10 BTDC (for the stock setting).

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

Well..I fired it back up today and set the timing at 12 degrees,and reconnected the EST and while doing my Idle Relearn it died..and in order to restart it, I had to go to clear flood mode.I dont think it likes 12 degrees for base.I was doing that yesterday RBob ..running/holding the RPMs up while rotating the dizzy and I noticed where the sweet spot was but didnt leave it there.. when I checked base timing its nowhere near 10-12 degrees?I think I am going to try and set the timing @ 2200-2400 like you said and see where base is at when I bring it down..cause right now it seems like its loading up at idle at 12 degrees base.I didnt check it at 2200-2400 so I cant give you that info.. was more concerned about setting base timing.Will try again maybe today or tomorrow.But I can tell it runs good just above idle..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I was doing that yesterday RBob ..running/holding the RPMs up while rotating the dizzy and I noticed where the sweet spot was but didnt leave it there.. when I checked base timing its nowhere near 10-12 degrees?

This was just for the cam break in. Once broken in then you can set the timing with the bypass/est connector open. Note that this needs to be done with the engine below 1200 RPM (or so). There is built in advance in the igntion module when the bypass/est is open.

cause right now it seems like its loading up at idle at 12 degrees base

It may be with the MTC-5 cam the VE table is too high at low(er) RPM. This is common when the duration or overlap is increased. More cam decreases the VE at lower engine speeds and increases it at higher engine speeds.

Bumping the timing up to 12 or 14 BTDC (bypass/est open) may help. Although some tuning via the ECM calibration is the way to go.

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

I wanted to give some more info on this today..When I pulled the old heads I thought I had two broken manifold bolts when in fact I had 4 ..both 1&2 cylinders had no bolts (well broken ones)Today I pulled the plugs which are the old ones ..I didnt put a fresh set in it.(too lazy to run to the store)..and they were all black.(very rich)So I checked fuel pressure and its good and holds steady so I know my injectors/reg. arent the prob.I am guessing with the manifold bolts broken the O2 is probably getting an accurate reading now and when I first fired it ,I was playing with the timing and it was way advanced.So I am going to throw some plugs and a new o2 at it,and see what that does if it still idles crazy..I will have to put on my diagnostic man outfit again.My question to some of you is should I run a hotter plug then stock? or stick with the stock ones?.What have you guys found to be close on the heat range.Other then the cam..the heads are mildly ported and gasket matched and a flowmaster knock off.Otherwise its stock?.This cam shouldnt be that crazy with a lobe spread of 112.When you get into the 110 area thats when you get that lopy idle.I had a Chevelle with a comps 270H 470 lift @ 110 and it was borderline..Loped but not real crazy good street cam..I liked it so much I am putting something close in my Vega.

jstrdn90rs

I wanted to close this thread and leave some info for people who want to install the MTC-5 cam in their cars.I did some final checks..ignition wires,firing order and base timing.I threw a fresh set of plugs in it and hooked up my AutoXray and fired it up and it idled fine,as it was trying to relearn I ran it up to make sure my O2 was working and closed loop occured and it was all working like it should.SO instead of bringing it back to idle I kept it around 2200 (timing was at 38 degrees)Found nothing wrong,but a 6 degree difference between CTS and IAT sensors,before I started it..thats all I could find.So once I brought it to an idle it died which I am assuming because of the Idle Relearn.Which I will tackle tomorrow.As you can see I am in no hurry to get it rolling.Once I take a test drive I will post my results.

jstrdn90rs

It looks like a good starting point is 12 degrees for base timing(EST disconnected)..and if you have any exhaust leaks you will notice them.The cam kinda highlights the areas.So I found an EGR gasket leaking and muffler to tailpipes.Havent took it for a test drive yet..probably this weekend or beginning of the week.

jstrdn90rs

Well took it for its first test run ..ran great until it was fully warm and almost didnt make it to work..died everytime I let off the gas.It wont idle unless I keep it at 1K or if I ground the aldl connector..I am guessing theres way to much timing still?..anybody have any suggestions on where to start?.I am assuming its computer/sensor related.I was about 3/4 the way to work and it started to die...hopefully I can get it home.

Had some time to mess with it at work today and fired it up (after sitting for a few hours) and it idled fine ..a little low but it was idling.I opened up the throttle position to see if it would help for the run home..and shut it off.A few hours later I prayed it would make it home and half way home it died again.Threw a jumper in the ALDL and it barely got me home..took out the jumper and threw my scanner on it and No Closed Loop??..WTF I checked it the other day when I was trying to set timing and it went in fine??.Looks like O2 number three going in tomorrow?.Has anyone had this problem..after you do some repairs? I never messed with the sensor and I even checked it when I was setting timing?.Only thing I can think of is repairing the exhaust leaks.. could that knock out a sensor?.Sorry maybe I should of posted this in another forum ,but I wanted to keep this on this thread for others in this situation.

jstrdn90rs

Well it seems I have other issues with this car..If anyone is running this MTC-5 cam in their car what is your timing set at?I have base(no ETC) @12 and 21 (w/EST) and about 38 total at 2200 RPMS. and what is the best vacuum reading you get at idle?I am getting drifting between 10-12 inches @idle.I am suspecting a vacuum leak with mine and doing some checking trying to widdle it down and hope its not the cam..otherwise it will be pulled out.I found a few that will be capped or repaired until I narrow it down completely.Anyone with any suggestions would be helpful.I had a huge cam in my chevelle and had 8-6 inches @ idle so this cam profile is nowhere near it and I am few inches away from that.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if the cam is timed corectly thats not ur issue, the mtc-5 is the slightest bit bigger then stock and i mean slight, a 260 grind cam which is larger then that cam will still pull 18-20 inches of vacum

jstrdn90rs

Well theres no way I have the cam off..I am very maticulous.Its possible I might have valves a little tight though.Like I said I had to do it three times.(cant find the correct procedure for setting them)All manuals are incorrect its doesnt have seat pressure of a V8.I adjusted them until the rocker arm was snug.. no more.Anymore it started to open the valves.Unless the lifters being new(compression check will hopefully rule it out)for some reason are lifting the valves more then the adjustment I did?.I repaired a MAP sensor hose,and capped off my leaking AC/heater controls leaks too.Booster is new and its good.. plugged it and no change.Orb of power leaks a tad, but its capped off for the testing,Air pump diverter is capped as well.Down to EGR and gaskets.Sooner or later I will get there but I miss driving it..

project89

iTrader: (1)

0 lash + 3/4 to 1 turn seems to be the best bet on adjusting the valves, first time i did mine was 0 lash then half a turn and they ended up lose so i went just over a 1/4 turn more and they were right

jstrdn90rs

Okay explain your Def. of Zero lash ?..are you rotating the push rod until it doesnt turn anymore and thats zero?cause I tried that and left valves open no compression.Are you moving the rod up and down till it doesnt move anymore?.etc. plus are you going by the book adjusting certain int/exh valves while on #1 cylinder and then on #4 cylinder?..

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... Click Here, but in conjunction with your firing order of course

project89

iTrader: (1)

rotate the pushrod in ur finger tips while tightening the rocker, once u feel a lil bit of drag on the pushrod u are at zero lash.rember a lil drag not when it stops turning that is way to far.
from the point of a lil bit of drag go 3/4 of a turn and move on to the next rocker

project89

iTrader: (1)

or u could measure out the plunger in the lifter, from 0 lash it should drop 20 thousandths

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I use the 'move the pushrod up & down' method to find zero lash. Just jiggle it as the rocker nut is slowly tightened. It is easy to feel where zero lash is.

The problem with the 'rotate the pushrod' method is trying to feel for the tension at zero lash. There is very little change. Most folks end up with the issue you had. No tension until the lifter is bottomed.


An un-orthodox method I use is for which valves to adjust when. Best part is there is no cylinders to remember or such.

Start by removing the spark plugs and backing off all rockers until they are loose.

Now go around the engine and zero lash every rocker.

Rotate the engine about 45 degrees.

Now go around the engine and zero lash any rocker that is loose.

Note: don't back off any rocker that is already tight. Just work on the loose ones.

Rotate the engine about 45 degrees.

Now go around the engine and zero lash any rocker that is still loose.

At this point repeat the 'rotate 45 degrees' and 'zero lash any rocker that is still loose'. Do this until the engine has been turned 2 full revolutions.

You can also continue to further rotate the engine and check for any loose rockers. This is OK to double check things. Just don't back any off. For a quick check can grab the pushrod end of the rocker and jiggle it up and down.

Once you are satisfied that all rockers have been zero lashed need to add the so many additional turns. Just go straight down the rockers on each head and add 3/4 to 1 additional turn (tighter) on each rocker.

Done. Put the covers back on then the intake setup.

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

Well I used the wiggle the rocker arm until it had a slight snug feeling..not tight...backed it off until it wiggled slightly and then tightened it ..and I mean a hair turn (very slight) and left it there.If I went any furthur you could tell the valve was starting to open.Its possible I might have another problem..like a vacuum leak.I pulled the hose to the MAP and hooked up my vacuum pump and it wasnt holding??.WTF??.the angle type plug on the MAP itself wasnt tight enough.I am doing some other repairs and will try again tomorrow and see if theres a change.Basically I had a rich condition were the plugs were loading up and I think the leaking MAP hose might be the problem or some of it?I put a fresh set of plugs in it before the new O2 went in and when I fired it ..it ran smooth for a bit.Then I think it was loading up and then started running rough,..If I dont see a change tomorrow, I will block off the EGR/check for gasket leaks and then I am down to a compression check..and of course valve adjustment.I cannot believe how many vacuum leaks I found so far?.its amazing I didnt go through O2's more often.Anyway, I appreciate all the info/suggestions..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yea, a leak in the line to the MAP will cause it to run rich. Fixing it will help quite a bit.


As for the valve adjustment. All of the parts involved are basically polished. The pushrod ends, the pushrod cups in the rocker & lifter, the rocker fulcrum, the rocker tip, etc.

With them being polished they will easily move with little effort. This is even with the lifter tension on them. The lifter only has a light spring in it. Which makes it easy to compress and only generates a little if any tension.

Back to zero lash.

Lightly grasp the rocker at and above the pushrod cup. Gently move it up and down. With a slight amount of lash it will make a clicking sound.

As the lash is taken up while gently moving the rocker up & down, the clicking will go away. That is zero lash. Try it a couple of times to get a feel for it. Back off the nut a turn and listen for the clicking, then tighten it down until the clicking just goes away.

Note how the pushrod can easily be spun, how the rocker arm can still be moved around. There shouldn't be any real tension on any of the parts.

Only need to add the additional 3/4 - 1 turn after that point.

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

Lightly grasp the rocker at and above the pushrod cup. Gently move it up and down. With a slight amount of lash it will make a clicking sound.

As the lash is taken up while gently moving the rocker up & down, the clicking will go away. That is zero lash. Try it a couple of times to get a feel for it. Back off the nut a turn and listen for the clicking, then tighten it down until the clicking just goes away.

Note how the pushrod can easily be spun, how the rocker arm can still be moved around. There shouldn't be any real tension on any of the parts.

Only need to add the additional 3/4 - 1 turn after that point.

RBob.[/quote]

Thats what I was looking for.. what is considered zero lash since these 60 degree motors are a little different then the V8's..when it comes to setting valves.Every book I read is telling the same way to set them ..like a V8.I can see many people being frustrated cause its not like you just remove the covers and adjust them?.So doing it right the first time will keep the cussin at bay.I noticed my old lifters when I adjusted them they would leak down quite rapidly as the new ones dont.Can someone tell me what the correct name is for the device or component attached to the back of the air pump is called and if its still available through parts stores?.I want to call it a diverter valve or air management valve?.It refuses to hold ay amount of vacuum..Its got to hold something and this one doesnt hold anything,no matter how fast I pump my tester up.Its been disconnected since I owned the car.. its tied in with the FPR.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For a V6 vs.V8, zero lash is the same. It seems that the number of preload turns is where the differences are.

AIR control valve, divertor valve, management valve, all sound good. Parts store folks should know what it is.

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

Well its now running better ..the plugs arent black anymore..now their white.But it still has a miss at idle..ran a compression check and have #6 100, #1 @ 110 and the rest at 120.Might have those two a little on the tight side of valve setting.I really have no change in vacuum @ idle.I didnt notice any plugs that werent firing,all were pretty white when I removed them for the compression check.Going to try a few more things..and if I dont find anything its just the way the cam is?.

Well a little research and this cam will not give any more inches of vacuum then what I have..10-12 inches is about what it calls for.Its a pain in the @55 to do any tuning cause the computer keeps compensating for my adjustments?
I had to increase throttle plate opening a bit to allow a much better idle setting/stock setting is too low..is this normal?On carb engines w/cams its normal due to lower vacuum readings.Will I have to hollow out the TPS sensor to get it back to .50v setting?..will the computer be okay if I had to run close to the .9v setting?What about fuel pressure whats the ideal setting ?.I have an Adjustable Reg. currently running about 50 key on and 45 running.

jstrdn90rs

I always find it funny when you get into tuning..especially after a cam install.Most people wont touch the thread..thats okay.
I am hoping by posting this thread that those of you who want to install a cam in your V6 this thread can be useful.I want to cover that before you do a swap..make sure your engine is running on the top.No injector leaks,bad compression issues etc. cause you will have more problems when you get done.Also..No vacuum leaks either.(as this cam already produces low vacuum)If you add anymore to it more then likely you will have stalling issues or rich conditions.I have a list of leaks on mine..heater control valve leaks,air management valve,had a MAP line leaking(most important) cause low vacuum on the MAP tells ol'ECM we are under a load and dumpy more fuely?On that note I did an idle relearn yesterday and it seems good...has a slight miss when warm and the exhaust leak at the muffler needs attention.Didnt want to weld the pipes (make its easier when you have to go after the fuel pump)
I havent test drivin it yet when I got the MAP leak fixed..I want to make sure when it goes into closed loop that it wont act up and if it doesnt I will test drive it,and post my results.I am also considering a aftermarket PROM and doing a bit of research.Possibly purchasing my own equipment..I want to see how the car runs during cruise and idle first and make a decision.I want to give it some time to learn.I have already contacted a few sources,a custom chip is probably the best ,but I am the type to buy the equipment and learn how to do it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a board here on TGO just for DIY EFI tuning.

Can you post the spec's on the MTC-5 cam? Maybe a picture of the cam card? Just wondering how much cam this really is.

For the TPS, at .9 volts it is close to the upper limit of self-adjusting. May or may not need to slot the holes to bring the voltage down.

First thing to do is to set up for data logging. This tells you what the ECM sees and what it is doing. The $88 code is chatty so TunerPro Rt or Scanner Pro may have issues with sync'ing up.

Data Master (free for the first 20 logs) does work. At a minimum can try it first before purchasing it. Will also need an ALDL cable.

Bone white spark plugs are normal for properly running EFI 3.1's.

RBob.

project89

iTrader: (1)

Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,000-4,200
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 214
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204 int./214 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 278
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 288
Advertised Duration: 278 int./288 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.420 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.443 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.420 int./0.443 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Intake Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Computer Controlled Compatible: Yes


i do belive the cam is speced at .005 not .050

jstrdn90rs

Yup thats the cam..got it through Auto Zone 119.00 and the matched springs as well.Had to install some +.50 degree locks to get the installed height..but had to remove the oil shredders(installed PC seals).I was looking at the DIY EFI tuning thread and still kinda trying to grasp how it works and have read it many times.I noticed the Ostrich seems to be the hot ticket ,but dont think I want to spend that kind of money.I was looking at a Batronix Programmer which seems to be a good price..as far as datalogging I only have my AutoXray which is probably bottom of the slow barrel basic ..I havent even tried the mode yet to see how it works.I would be better off with the software and the ALDL cable?I contacted FastChips to see if maybe this was something he already done previously and might opt for their stage 1 chip.(waiting for a reply)Not sure yet still kinda tossing it around.I would like to do it myself then I can use it towards other projects that me or some friend might have.I have a question I know some have checked the bin files on hypertech and Jetchip and compared them to stock ?..Has anyone done it to a FastChip?.I will give the car a few weeks run time to see how it reacts and fine tunes itself then make a decision if I can live with the performance.I want to see if midrange and top end is acceptable.The TPS is currently at .7 and IAC in the 30 range and seems to be okay.I think my slight miss when warm is a lean miss.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The Ostrich is nice as you don't need to continuously burn PROMs. However, it isn't intended as a permanent replacement for the PROM. Although some do use it that way.

Can get the Burn1 and a handful of the 27SF512 chips. Can then either socket your stock MEMCAL or get the G1 adapter.

If the AutoXray can data log that is all that is required. Data logging is the key to tuning as it shows you what the ECM is doing and seeing.


Looking at the differences between the stock and MTC-5 cam, there is more duration (+8* in, +11* ex). More lift (+.026 in, +.033 ex). With an LSA of 112*, which I can't find the spec for on the stock cam. Knowing GM it is in the range of 114* to 116*.

Which means that the MTC-5 has 11 to 14 degrees of additional overlap. This is where tuning may be required.

Once you start driving it the car will tell you whether it needs additional tuning or not.

RBob.

jstrdn90rs

I contacted Ed over at FastChips and got some info regarding his product and he suggested the Stage 1 chip..he doesnt do long distance custom prom burning,which is probably a given.If anyone is running a FastChip in their V6..would love to hear from you and your opinions?.

Anything under 12 degrees base it doesnt seem to like it..I rotated the dizzy while watching a vacuum gauge and right in the 12-14 range you will get the highest reading.I do however suggest you put the timing in 12-14 degree range,when you first fire it and let it relearn idle before you do any tuning cause you will be fighting the computer while its trying to get idle setting.

I was going to run a quick scan to make sure closed loop works and take it for a test run,but had to do other things today after work and hopefully in the next few days I will get to it.The reason I mentioned something about people not touching the tuning aspect when they do a cam swap..wasnt intented to offend anyone,in the DIY EFI side of tuning..more or less what needs to be done to get it in the ballpark then you can decided if you want to cross-over to the aftermarket chip or burn your own?Basically how does your car run in idle/cruise/WOT modes?and are you satisfied with it.which is funny cause I am there right now.I will keep the post current when I can..
Oh and thanks RBob I owe you a couple of beers and a pizza..

jstrdn90rs

Still working on this..found a MAP sensor line leaking and my EGR was giving me problems..car would die during a long brief straight away.Base of EGR was cracked and had a bad gasket.So I ordered a new one which is on the way..There is a gasket just under the plungers which gets direct heat from the manifold and over time it will blow out.(not the base gasket,which is sold at most parts places)I think this one is dealer only item or have to purchase a new EGR valve,I am guessing.I got lucky and found a barely used one on Ebay for 62 bucks,cause I wasnt about to fork over 189 bucks for a new one.So if you have problems driving your car for a brief long straight away and then dies,and its only when you drive it on a long straight away.More then likely the gasket is blown...cause mine drove fine around the neighborhood until then.I tried to make one out of heat wrap thats made for high temp..and it didnt work.The original had a metal plate on it probably to direct heat away from the gasket material which has metal in it as well.So hopefully when I get that taken care of, I can start to finally do some tuning.I suggest if you have some miles on your digital EGR just replace it...if you can afford it.It gets a lot of heat..I would probably put this on the list of priority.

jstrdn90rs

Well I am going to eat my words on that last post ..EGR didnt solve my problem..took it for another test run and it ran great cold ,but once I got it warmed it just seemed like it was struggling and died again.I am beginning to think my Cat is plugged..reason why my EGR valve was cracked(extreme heat)I had some exhaust leaks before the cam swap which probably kept it from choking,and running under hard throttle..I guess its back to the process of elimination.

Wanted to update on this saga..I pulled my CAT today and it looks good..so I decided to recheck the valves again..and whata now..had them too tight again.For some reason I think my brain is at work and my body is running around this house like a zombie!!!..anyway..CAT is going back on and hopefully will try again tomorrow.Anytime you do a head swap ..make sure you know how to adjust the valves or you will be a tearing it down again and again..and possibly running after something else you think is causing the problem.I do 1 cylinder at a time..rotating the crank until I see one of the valves open and adjust the opposite valve ..push up and down on the push rod until you dont feel any play and thats 0 lash..then you can tighten an additional 1/4-1/2 turn whatever turns your bucket.I dont know what the hell I was thinking..

jstrdn90rs

Finally!!!!..fired it up a few hours ago and lifters clacked a bit and got quiet(pumped up) and it idled like glass..What a difference setting the valves right makes??Which is @ zero lash..no additional turns.Now I have a slight exhaust leak at the CAT..but the response and idle was ten times better.I still have to take it for test run,but I think the way its idling now its going to be rewarding.Almost a month down since I did the upgrades/repairs..You cant really tell if it has a cam now..almost sounds stock..in drive it has a slight tone.I will post my test run results for those of you that are considering the cam..As a matter of fact the heads I put on are port matched and the intake humps have been removed.Nothing more..opened up the exhaust ports a tad and the intakes of course have been opened up..I was shooting for mid-range torque and power since it fell flat around 3500-4000 with the stock heads and cam..

project89

iTrader: (1)

so u set the rockers till there was slight drag on the pushrod and then left them? u didnt put any additional preload on them?

jstrdn90rs

I used the up and down movement on the push rod..I noticed I had about 2-3 threads of the rocker stud above the adjusting nut protruding.Where before I had about 5-7 threads sticking up past the nut(too tight)Once the lifters pumped up it left the valves open and killed the motor.No drag ...dont do it that way.back them off until you feel play in the push rod ..up and down then slowly tighten them until you feel no play and thats zero lash...I left them there

Once the lifter has pumped up completely usually down a long drive or freeway drive..the oil pressure pumps the lifters up and if you put any additional turns on the nut ..once the lifter is pumped up completely it can hold the valves open and you lose cylinder pressure or performance.It took me awhile to understand it..so zero lash is basically where the lifter would be completely pumped up.Dont wiggle the rocker like I did last time until it was snug...its going to be too tight

project89

iTrader: (1)

well the lifter plunger should drop down in the lifter about .020 u dont want the lifter at the very top once its fully pumped up.
it almost sounds like ur are dead on 0 the way u did it,if so ur may develop some noise once u get some miles on it

jstrdn90rs

Yeah I am right at 0 lash...if it does start to make some noise I will go back in..I need to start somewhere.My neighbor has a grand am with a 3100 and its has some loud valvetrain noises,but I remember we did a intake manifold gasket at work (since they like to leak) and the rockers just bolted down..no adjustment and some asked whats the lash on those and he replied 0??.so basically once they start to make noise in those set-ups you need new cam and lifters to shut them up?.at least ours are adjustable..

jstrdn90rs

I spent a few hours today trying to find the amount of turns I needed after establishing zero lash.I musta hand cranked that engine around a zillion times from the blister on my palm.After removing everything again..I counted how many times from zero lash to the valve starting to open and it was roughly 2 turns,which half way is 1 turn which I did.I started it up and it clacked a bit until oil pressure came in and as it was running it still clacked (not as bad) and once it warmed up it went away.The manual I have says 1 1/2 turns after zero?.does that sound like they are still too loose?.I know my original lifters wouldnt take that much turns..but these are new ones.Does lifter brand differ for pre-load setting?.I am a little confused as I have read many threads about people saying 1/4 turn to 3/4 is max and some say 1 turn where a manual says 1 1/2 turns?.I am already at one turn and have only 1 more to go..if I go 1 1/2 turns that leaves only a half a turn when the valve opens is that going to be a issue when the lifter is fully pumped up and possibly leaves valves open?.

Okay since I didnt get any replies..I will try and close this saga.Once you establish zero lash..you can go from 1/4-1 turn...resist anymore turns regardless of the rocker being loose or you still have play in between the valve and rocker tip.If you go and take the rest of that play up..what will happen is once the lifters completely pump up ..say from a 1-2 mile( no stopping) ride and you come to a stop and the car dies (its a good indication your valves are too tight) which is due to the lifters holding the valves open.Another indication is low engine vacuum and irratic idle..once it gets warm.I had these set at zero lash and it ran/idled excellent..since I have a new valvetrain, I decided to go on the tight side of the adjustment.Reason is the cam/lifter will wear and loosin up some over time,and plus I am sick of tearing the intake off!!.I took it for a drive today and it idles/runs great has a bit more performance then stock which I was looking for..its just a daily driver.Once I break it in..I will do some more final tuning.I would go after some headers but have an air pump(cannot get around that)So for those who are going to install a cam in the little V6, I hope this thread helps you get you in the ballpark,and wish you luck.