firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You come here and your first post is in a section about v6's and tell someone they need to swap to a v8? Do you think that some v6 owners might actually like having a v6? I have been around this block too many times. I'm just fine helping other people who want to be differnt. My engine weighs a little over 300lbs and should put close to that in hp N/A. Can you rev your V8 to 7200RPM? I'm using all stock GM parts modified to my taste, homebuilt headers, and a custom cam. That's almost 100hp/liter (imagine what I can do to an SBC/LSX ).

You are the same age as me, in the early-mid 90's I was into putting as big of a motor as possible in a car. Even did a SBC in a notch-back Mustang with a TH400 trans. It ran 11.8x all motor and 10.3x on a nitrous shot. Still had the 8.5" rear in it, lol, and was painted Chevy Orange - called it the "Moustang".

We all know hands down a v8 CAN make more power, but I still like opening the hood and seeing the look on peoples' faces.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

No offense intended but I've seen threads like this posted on this forum dating back to the mid 90's. Most of the people who have to ask, can't accomplish the goals they're shooting for... Threads like this just help push the useful threads and real threads further down the board. It's more then a little bit annoying.

Today isn't my first day on Thirdgen.org. I've been around here for about 13 years now. I've had ten thirdgens ranging from 2.8 and 3.1 cars all the way up to TPI 350's. I've had a 3.1 with a 125hp shot of nitrous, WS6 swaybars, wonderbar, etc. It was faster then a stock or mildly modded V8, and it was fun.

Edit: If you want to keep the V8 comments off the V6 forum, try not bringing it up... Please note the subject line of this topic. Also before making comments about V6 vs V8 gas mileage I recommend researching the EPA ratings. You'll find very little difference between the in town gas mileage rating on the 3.1L V6 and the 5.7L V8. Usually 1-2mpg.

tank12983

V6 = the base model huh?... limited edition bandit II choo choo custom. it says 3.1L injected right on the shaker. custom upholster on the interior it says bandit II in all the seat heads, floor mats etc... custom paint and badges/decals. i just put a hotchkis suspension on it. AND I DON'T MAKE SENSE, I MAKE DOLLARS! the idea of a V8 killer will always be here to counter act the V8pimps like you.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

LOL put down your crack pipe and step away from the keyboard.

So some backwoods custom shop stuck some stickers, aftermarket wheels, and a plastic hood scoop on a handful of cars to sucker gullible people into buying a base model car. It doesn't change the fact that it's a base model, it's just a base model with a fancy aftermarket sticker package. When your car left the assembly line in Van Nuys it was just a normal entry level Firebird. All that Bandit II nonsense you think is so important was added aftermarket by the dealer or a custom shop.

The V6 was the base model engine. Order the bare minimum options on a Camaro or Firebird in most years and you'd get a V6. Don't try to rearrange the facts, just learn to cope with reality.

As far as "V8 killer" I've already been there and done that with my 3.1L Firebird on nitrous. As far as V8 pimp, my daily driver is a 2.3L 4cyl Mustang with a turbocharger, so I guess I'm still a bit lost. How about you build a V8 killer instead of wet dreaming about horsepower in your wanna-be Burt Reynolds base model? The facts of the matter are pretty straight forward, if you want V8 performance out of a V6 the easiest and cheapest method is going to be a power adder. You're so clueless about your goals and what it takes to actually reach them, that you're doomed to fail before you ever begin. Not to mention, all the information you're looking for has been discussed here in great detail. Why don't you try using the search feature, instead of wasting everyones time with your dreams of killing V8's?

One positive point about the 3.1 script on the fake shaker... At least when you get beat by some kid in a Honda, there's a chance he won't think he just beat a V8.

micktroup

You know DREW, the question was not "how do I make my 3rd gen the fastest, most powerful kid on the block?".

I can shoehorn a Keith Black hemi with an 8-71 blower into a Mini Cooper if money is no object. What is your point?

With enough money, I can put 3 J-79 jet engines in a tube frame and run 800 mph- what is your point? Any muppet with unlimited resources can throw money at a problem... that takes no skill or talent, let alone genius.

I own a 3.1 V6. A LOT OF PEOPLE OWN 2.8/3.1 V6s. We like our cars. We want to keep them. I have looked at V8 3rd gens on the market- most have been thrashed, are rusted out or are now in Mexico. My car is straight, rust free and sound. I would like to make it run as efficiently and as fast as possible, so IF YOU DON'T MIND I would ALSO like to know how to maximize the potential of my engine (which is really a smallblock Chevy V8 minus 2 cyliners), so toddle on back to the V8 boards where you 'big boys' belong...

Oh yes, and if you get bored with your current ride, maybe daddy can take you out to Barrett-Jackman and buy you a new toy...

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Whoa...First of all, all the little boys need to stop bickering. This thread is about upgrading a v6. Everyone know that V6s will always be smaller than V8s...so what. I would agree that the v6 is the base model...with the exception of the TTA. But last I had checked, this is not the "engine swap" forum...so lets keep all the "swap to a V8" crap out of here and eather get back to topic or have this locked

And I am sorry, but the 2.8/3.1 is not a SBC minus 2 cylinders...that is the 4.3.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here's a V8 killer...



It's a 3800 Series II with two gt35bb turbos built in Tim King's garage.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Dear micktroup,

Are you retarded? Which do you think costs more money? Building a 6cyl world beater from the ground up? or installing a $600 nitrous kit / fabricating a turbo system? Before you answer that try pricing out machine work, labor costs, and performance parts for 60* V6's. Keep in mind it takes about an hour to install a nitrous system and the engine doesn't have to come out, or go to a machine shop, etc. What's your time worth?

A 60* V6 is NOT a Chevy V8 minus two cylinders. If you paid someone for that morsel of wisdom, go get your money back.

As far as your idea that I'm some punk kid, like yourself, and my parents buy my cars, thats pretty funny since no one has paid for any of my cars in 13 years. Even more funny that you're talking about unlimited resources and more teenage BS high performance dreams when both the cars I am talking about were hauled out of junkyards and built with junkyard parts on shoestring budgets.

My point is simple. You kids with no talent, no ingenuity, and no money, dream about turning your base model car into the next Hot Rod cover car. If it was as easy and cheap as you all think, everyone would do it. You get all defensive and spout off like I'm trying to tell you to spend millions of dollars on your cars, when I'm telling you it'll cost more then you think, to do what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting anyone convert to a V8. That's ridiculous. It'll cost twice as much as a running driving V8 car, before you even get into the wrench time. That's the thing, V8 thirdgens are cheap, and not exactly fast to begin with. Dumping a bunch of money into a 6cyl trying to go faster then a V8 is imbecilic when you could just BUY a V8 to begin with for less money. It's all about money and skill... If you're asking how to do it online, with no clue of your own, you probably don't have the money or the skill necessary to pull it off.

micktroup

Wow, the PMS kicked in BIG TIME, didn't it? Some guy wants to improve his car and asks for some pointers and you start foaming at the mouth and hurling insults. By the way, out here is CA, nitrous on a street car is illegal, so if the guy is building up a street car, that won't work if he has the same issue, now will it?
I tell you what- might I suggest to Drew that if someone wants his specific opinion, they ask for it directly, that way he won't keep popping off and looking like a ********.
Opinions are like ***holes, and apparently Drew has a big one.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Don't get all butt-hurt cause you're an idiot and illustrated the fact for everyone on a public forum.

micktroup

There you go with the insults again. The kid wants to build up his V6- good for him! A V8 is more powerful than a V6- who would have thunk it
Someone needs to lock this thread...
And 'butt-hurt"? If you majored in English in college you need to ask for your tuition back- or is that a freudian reference to your time in prison?

Oh yeah- Happy Easter everyone!

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Where is a mod when you need one?
I see this going on for a while.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Drew just GTFO. If you read more threads in here we mostly tell newbies that their V6 is not going to kill a V8 but we point them in a good direction and let them make their own choice. Someone lock this thread before we insult Drew again.

zs&tas

agreed this is stupid

tank12983

+1

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Look, the V6 guys in the post are giving you vague information, the few who have actualy suggested the V8 swap, you want to **** at them for giving you good advice, if you look carefully most of the ones with the 60* V6 and no turbo are still hopeful at best for around 200 HP, the engine itself wasnt designed for performance, and performance replacement parts that matter (heads and intake manifold) arent exactly readily available for awesome power.

Few choices:

1. Swap to a 3.4 (93-95 F body) it is a fairly easy swap, it will get you some extra power, do the bolton mods to this, dont expect it to be a rocket.

2. Build some hybrid concoction of an engine using parts from a bunch of different stuff, and hope to make some decent power, chances are you are still going to get wiped by most V8 thirdgens around (you did say you are after a V8 killer)

3. Add a turbo to your car, to do this reliably, you will have to spend a decent bit more than the $1500 budget you stated, and you still will only end up in the 2xx range to the tires, if you manage to do something decent, without blowing up the engine.

4. Combine option 1 or 2 with #3, again you'll probably beat some stock, worn out V8's, and the guys who dont know what they're doing...

5. Swap in a GN engine, this will get you an engine that 1. is designed for performance, 2. has great aftermarket support, and 3. will actually kill V8's, however it is going to cost a good bit more than your $1500 stated.

6. Swap in an LT1/LS1, cost varies, and if you actually tried to do an LT1 swap for cheap, it can be done, and you'll wipe the street with pretty well any of these 60* hope to go fast hopefuls. More than likely you'll get better fuel mileage than you are getting now, and despite people *thinking* its better to "just get a V8 car to start with" you are much better off starting with a V6 model 9 times out of 10, you'll spend less overall, and typically have a better car in the end.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Sorry guys, I've got just as much right to be on here sharing my opinions as anyone else. It's not my fault that some of you clowns can't handle unbiased suggestions. I never strayed from the topic, never once suggested swapping a V8, and didn't start trouble with anyone. But everyones gotta get bent and start putting words in my mouth and discounting my view on the topic. No offense or anything but I've got a better unbiased view on the V6 vs V8 topic, and making the most of a 6cyl fbody then most people on this forum, cause I've been there, done that, owned both, etc. It only gets personal when you guys make it personal. Don't get upset when it doesn't go your way.

Agreed this thread is stupid, wasn't that established on my first contribution to this thread?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The hybrids have already been done. Without porting etc, they produce 170-190whp in 4th gen 3.4's (no tuning, stock or mild cams).

I can agree with what you and Drew are trying to convey here. People wihtout the ability or knowledge would have a hard time doing the kind of experiments I have been performing on my car, but then again, it's also not a daily driver.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Too much bickering for one thread...

To be correct these engines were designed for performance atleast in part. Smog-era performance . The citation x-11 was one of the first vehicles to use these engines and was intended to be raced in the SSB/SCCA road racing class. And let's not forget gm's prototype aluminum fiero components. Output wasn't high on gm's list for most any '80's-era engines, packaging and meeting federal standards was.

As I and others have said before the stock heads and induction on these motors are restrictive and pretty much useless in a performance application. 3x00 swaps (hybrids) have been done many times before and are the only real way to make power with these motors. It is quite a jump getting started, but can be done very cheap using salvaged parts. 3x00 components have great untapped potential people simply neglect to notice.

I really get frustrated by all the slack v6 enthusiasts get. If I wanted a v8 I'd get one. I happen to enjoy the handling my v6 affords me, and now that I've done a '165 ecm swap I'm able to squeez every last mpg out of this engine I can, to the tune of 25 city, 30 highway. Right on par with modern vehicles.

iansmusical

Hi Guys,

Ok so I've just read this thread from start to finish and am near totally confused what with all the bickering :-(

Given the flow of the thread I'm actually wondering why there was a V6 in the first place because it seems the V8 has more power but also retains the fuel economy, that latter point I can't believe! The fuel economy issue was what put me off getting the V8 here in the UK where fuel is expensive :-(

Now it does seem that for us V6 guys the only way to increase the power, forgetting V8 killers, is to go with the 3.4 swap because you can't swap the heads on a 3.1? Alternatively some form of hybrid? Is a 3x00 hybrid easy ish to do, does the ECM need changing/modifying etc?

Lots of people talk about CAI's and that Firebirds can't really have one without cutting a hole in the panel where the filter is. Does this really make a difference to the stock setup?

With regard to the LT1 swap, sure that's a lot more power but does the economy actually increase, as it seems any V8 just can't match the V6s economy? I'd presume the 3.4 swap is easier than the LT1?

Thanks, appreciated.

Ian

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Drew, although I myself am going the blown V8 route, and since your referring to V6 vs V8 (not 60 degree specific), can you yourself prove (and I imply prove with factual proof) that you, personally, built a V8 to top this particular V6 F-Body, Click Here? I think it's only reasonable for someone who actually built a V8 to run faster than the TTA in the video, to say that a V8 is the better option....

On a side note, it would be pointless to build either a 2.8 or 3.1 w/out a boosted application to go along with it. But this isn't to say that it isn't feasible to build the 3.1, it most certainly is feasible. It's getting closer and closer, and someone here will eventually show us what the little 60 degree V6's can do....

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

It is getting close.....isnt it......

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

A couple of us will, actually

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ That was my way of getting everyone's @ss in gear LOL....

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Takes time for perfection.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Wanna fast V6? 4.3 sy/ty motor. There's a quick combo I would LOVE to have in a another thirdgen.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Hmm, 2-Shay....

4.3's are sweet, but you gotta love those 3.8's, Click Here....

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Yea, thats been my problem. My "budget build" has changed faces a little. I find something that could use a little improvement...I improve it. I hit a few snags, got a few parts(that were not on the list), and we are back on track.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Because insurance on a v6 is cheaper. And some people just cant handle the power of a v8.

The hybrid option is not for the basic person. It basically needs a whole engine rebuild, and custom ECM.

Dunno, never had a bird. Search around(and not just v6 section), alot of home CAI have been made.

Some v8's CAN get same or better mpg then these v6s. However, it consist of more then just motor to get better mpg. Road friction, wind resistance, gears, weight, driving style, the roads you drive on... all make a difference.

RS Reaper

Wow at 1st this thread was good till I started to see the V8 swaps cause I would have sworn that he ask how to make a V6 kill a V8 but I must miss read. lots of good info on make a V6 faster thanx. Now why there is a V6 is the same reason why there is still a V8 now that you can buy a V10 or V12 and the same why they still have straight 4 when you can get a V6.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

What kills the V8s mileage most of the time is the city driving. On the highway they can get just as good mileage as the V6s.

fictmich

I intend to actually build one (already started) and find out how much power it can actually make before it breaks something. I'll let you know when I find out.

midwest

Anybody ever dyno these alleged v8 monsters?
I have dynoed 3rd 4th and 5th gens , all of the "fast" ones. All where automatics All done on a dynojet chassis dyno at uti's street legal performance.
3rd was a 92 5.7 tpi with all the bolt ons it layed down 218hp 310tq
4th was 97 firebird 5.7 lt1 with all the bolt ons only put down 247hp 288 tq
5th was 99 ws6 ls1 with all the bolt ons 385hp 392tq with a 100 shot it was 465hp 532tq

late fox body mustang 5.0 with gt40 heads cam and intake package was 224hp, 240 tq

02 and 03 4.6 mustang stock was 193hp 211tq. Most bolt ons where a negative. The most we got out of it was 285hp 325tq with a vortec super charger @ 6psi that included a air to water intercooler, and pcm reflash.

Point of all this, is that the v8s that they put in the 3rd and 4th gen arent as strong as many think they are. The only way they will get power is if they get into the motor. And whats the likely hood that your going to run into some one that went through and changed the heads and cam, on the street, slim. And then if they did, did they match all the parts? Probably not.

My 23 year old 2.8 still gets 23 city and 29 freeway. Do you think upgrading to new technologies is going to make the mpgs worse? I bet the 3400 3.4 will get the same if not better mpgs.

If i wanted something fast and easy i would have bought a gxsr1300. Aint no v8 going to touch that!

In summary there are those of us that go the same way as every one else. And then there are those of us that like tinkering and take the path less traveled. Its the later that seem to enjoy the ride a little more its also the later that start new trends.

I already have my complete 3400 located and paid for, i also have a 3.4l lined up. Just need for them to pull it out of the car. If you know the right people this stuff is dirt cheap.
50 bucks for the 3400 and 250 for the 3.4.

crytical point

I am currently building up my 60v6 in a 88 firebird and it is a 3.4 with HO iron heads and I have ported (hogged out) and polished the intake and throttle body and heads. I have been working to making the intake and heads flow using all the tricks and I still need headers and to finish my stealth CAI. I figure it should get about 200hp at the flywheel and make it a good little car for my girlfriend to drive and I keep my v8 camaro to myself. Maybe next year I will build the engine again but add a m90 and some custom intake system.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

This thread's title stirrs up controversy. You can't look at it without being drawn in, which is why there's so many offended v8 nuts on here. Truth is power can be made regardless of what engine is used- all this "v8/v6's are better because..." crap needs to stop.

Aluminum (fwd) heads can be swapped onto the 2.8/3.1, just not the 3500 heads. 3100 or 3400 heads fit just fine. Nothing says you need to use the 3.4 block, it's just a very good option if you choose to do a 3x00 head swap. All the hardware for DIS is already there and the extra displacement is hard to pass up. We don't pretend that building a hybrid is easy, but again making power with the iron heads isn't easy either. And you can't expect to get any decent amount of power out of any engine without work and research.

Reprogramming the computer isn't neccecary either, but you'll never realize the full benefits of it without tuning. Tuning is a given in my mind, any time you change the way the motor functions you need to change the way the ecm responds.

iansmusical

Hi Guys,

Thanks for answering some of my questions :-) What I'd like to achieve and hopefully not dreaming is to obtained 180-200bhp from either my current 3.1 or swapping to a 3.4. Is this possible without too much work and spending lots of money, what would need to be changed etc? Alternatively I could of course just swap to the LB9, L98 or LT1 but I'm sure this would require more work as the trans, suspension and maybe rear axle would need to be changed aswell? For me a hybrid is going to be beyond my ability!

Thanks,

Ian

crytical point

um guys if you want a real V8 killer then go SD Duke with a turbo and get like 600-800 hp out of 2.5-3.2 liter 4 banger and still have room to go.

RS Reaper

Ok I need to know these people in which you speak of.

midwest

All you need to know is somebody that works at a shop. Then you can go around buying stuff for "cost" instead of "list" ( through your inside man)
See i am my inside man, and since i am in the industry, i know who to call where to get what i want for cheap. Try and find someone who works at a networked salavage yard. Then when you call you your freindd and say hey i need a 3400 out of a 02 venture, he will say "fits 99-04 grand am, venture montana, alero, monte carlo, and impala. Followed by we just got one 99 grand am in with 55k miles, hit in rear. Ill put your name on it for a sweet price. Then you say how sweet of deal, then he will say hows fifty bucks. Then you say for what the long block?, then he says, no everything, the complete motor, you want the harness ecm and exhaust manifolds too right? what about the trans. Then you say, and then i need a 3.4l form an 95? fbody, then he says, fits 93-95 camaro firebird, then he says oh poop i dont have one here, but billy at different yard has one, let me call him. Bring bring hello inside guy? yes he was one complete for 250. Sweet ill take it. HAHAHAHA

Ben92

So my v6 pretty much needs to go to the junkyard??? I mean it has every option except the v8 and 5 speed. So unless it has a small block, its junk? MK.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

If it runs, its not junk. It all depends on what you are looking to get. Dont give up on your engine/car just because some people say to. You can get good numbers out of these engines...you just have to work a little harder to get them.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Just a minor correction for you... 4th gen went from '93 to '02. So both the '97 and '99 are 4th gen. 5th gen isnt slated to release until '09/'10.

zs&tas

glad you pointed that out, it really pisses me off when people do that.
FYI my 4th gen lt1 was def running 285-300bhp stock. the figures proved it. 247 ? must have been running like a bag of s@*t

Charlie319

Not trying to be a pain, but it is not how much HP/torque you make, but how much you can hook-up. Do all the basic stuff first. While it is somehat true that the faster the motor spins, the more power it makes, you can only pump so much air/fuel mixture before you hit the physical limits, so a power-adder may be needed. The thermostat change tries to do that by keeping the engine "cooler" it seeks to allow a denser air-fuel mix in the cylinder.

If I was re-doing a 2.8 or 3.1, I'd look at motorcycle technology. Their cylinders are sleeved or surfaced with low friction materials to enable them to hit 13k RPMs and to disipate the heat made.

The reason many of us don't want to go to a v-8 is mostly weight and balance. That extra weight on the nose does change the dynamics a bit. Now a more recent vintage v-8 might be tempting. I've not looked for a swap involving something like an LM7 or LQ4, but it might be an interesting budget option.

By the way, the Eldebrock bar is a Hotchkiss manufactured product.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The problem with that, is if you base it solely on hooking up, an engine with relatively less horsepower/torque won't be able to haul that much mass down the track faster than an engine that has the power. It'll hook, yes, but it won't have any power to haul. So yes, it does matter how much horsepower and torque you make, especially with a 3000+lb car....

Charlie319

Agreed, that you do need to have some power to hook-up, but once you go down that 400+hp road, you'll need to invest a lot of time, effort and money upgrading your suspension and frame to cope with the requirements of a high output motor. I personally don't race my firebird, although the suspension has been quite tinkered with, so my concern is usually more on the midrange powerband and having reasonable power and economy. But, once you start tangling with tricked out v-8's you'll find out that you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. At least that applied to bikes when I raced.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Good way to put it. Regardless of how power is made with these small-displacement motors they'll always be torq deficient when up against a much larger v8. Even small v8's have an inherent torq production advantage because of their constant power overlap. Although it would be easier to get it to hook without gobs of torq.

SageMoonblade

Yes we have less torque but we can spin these engines faster and up to the high speeds quicker than the V8 cars can. If you want to make a V8 killer V6 you have to look at more than the engine. The rear gearing has a huge impact on your numbers. I have seen properly built V6 cars take down exotics and muscle machines of all kinds. Your whole care must be built to work together. I know there are those out there that will give me a hard time about this following statement but it is true. These 2.8 V6 engines used to be run in some of the fastest sprint cars ever until they were outlawed, not only that but they came balanced from the factory to run 8500 RPM. Not sure I 100% trust the 8500 RPM but I ran mine for over an hour straight at 7500 RPM with no major issues. The engines can make the power to take out the V8 and even V10 cars if you are willing to work for it and yes you will have to spend some money. Also there is no way to get rid of the high scream of a high RPM V6 its life.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I just sold a 3500 block to a sprint car racer, the V6's aren't outlawed, but they do get a point reduction for using them. He was able to make 340hp out of it until the block cracked down the lifter valley (the reason he wanted the stronger FWD block with extra webbing in there). Right now he is using his iron duke 2.5 with a single v8 head on it making 320hp. He runs about 14:1 SCR and individual TB's, all forged internals, and doesn't take them past 6500 for these numbers.

As far as the balancing, you may be correct that they are balanced to 8500, but the rods are only rated to 7200 - i would think that has to do more with the fasteners than the forged rod itself. Dave (82 purple ta) made just over 290whp/270tq with a 3500 and doesn't take the RPM's that high. What heads and valvetrain combination were you using, and what was the conditions of the test? My redline will be 7200, and am looking for at least 250whp N/A and my cam peaks at 6500.

As far as the comments about rear gearing, don't you think a v8 competitor knows that very same thing?

SageMoonblade

Personally I keep finding that the average cocky V8 guys just think they can rely on engine power but yes a good chunk are smarter.