firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The webbing on the blocks are different. I would experiment on a junk block before trying it on a good engine. Then all you would need is a crank with the notches on the center "timing" journal.

Since I have been trying to make the 60*'s become an intrigal part of the shop, when I get the 3.1 out of the Firebird, I'll see about drilling for the sensor (and making a jig). With a jig, it will be a process simple enough for anybody to do that has access to a drill.

First pic in post #86 shows the webbing being thicker in the area of the sensor. It's located in the center of the block down low in the pass side.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

If you can't drill it, then you have to run a trigger wheel like the Buicks. Maybe a Buick balancer can be fitted to the 60* somehow? I have machined crank noses of "weird" engines to run aftermarket SBC balancers. It works as long as you take your modified assembly to the engine shop and have your crank/balancer/flywheel rebalanced. It was a pain in the butt, but when I was done I could then run an aftermarket sbc balancer and crank pulleys, which are much more available. I'm wondering if you can't do that with a 3.1?

How did the older 2.8/3.1 front wheel drive engines run DIS? Did they also have a webbed block?

Does anyone know the technical difference between the FWD and RWD blocks as far as usefulness? Are we just a set of motor mounts away from running an older 2.8/3.1 FWD block? I know the bellhousings match. At most, a slight clearancing for the starter to clear a RWD transmission. What else is the hang up?

I sold an 89 2.8 from a Firebird to a friend who put it in his Citation. I thought he was crazy, but he drove it to work to prove it to me! He said the only thing he had to do was to drill and tap the other side of my block to run his FWD starter. He ran his carb stuff and large cap distributor so the DIS stuff wasn't an option. I am just wondering about motor mount issues because it would sure be easier to score a FWD engine when on a budget rather than trying to mod an existing RWD 2.8/3.1...

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I already have the DIS pretty much figured out for my set up. I looked around in my area for a 3.4 with no luck. Probubly could have found one but I already had 3100 pistons so I was already leaning tword using my block.

85berlinetta2.8

1995
Engine
Chevy Camaro 3.4,A,6-95,SFI,RWD 160,000 A 05G028 $650 Kress Auto Recyclers USA-PA(West-Hazleton) E-mail 1-570-454-7211 Toll Free: 1-800-582-6336

1994
Engine
Chevy Camaro 000028013 $600 Joe's Auto Parts USA-PA(Sunbury) E-mail 1-570-648-9765
1994
Engine
Chevy Camaro 3.4,AOD,5 94,NEEDS COIL 66,000 A 784868 $575 #1 Morgan Highway Auto Parts USA-PA(Scranton) Request_Quote 1-800-648-1441 Request_Insurance_Quote

1995
Engine
Chevy Camaro 3.4,AOD,EFI,RWD 84,000 A 144592 $550 Triple Nickel, Inc. USA-PA(Chambersburg) E-mail 1-800-933-8627
1995
Engine
Pontiac Firebird 3.4L R-D BLACK 110,447 A UU-382 $550 J & D Auto Recycling, Inc. USA-PA(Manheim) Request_Quote 1-717-273-2890 Request_Insurance_Quote
1995
Engine
Pontiac Firebird 9-94,RWD,EFI,3.4,AT 106,285 A 5835A $550 Sharon Auto Wrecking USA-PA(Mercer) E-mail 1-724-346-4106 / 1-800-346-4109
1995
Engine
Pontiac Firebird 05-95 070204 $450 Red Lion Auto Salvage USA-PA(Red-Lion) E-mail 1-800-288-6234
1993
Engine
Chevy Camaro 122,000 NO SMOKE *25800035 $450 Ritenour & Sons Auto Wrecking USA-PA(Ellsworth) Request_Quote 1-724-239-2601 Request_Insurance_Quote
1994
Engine
Chevy Camaro 11-93,FWD,SFI,3.4,AO D, 070578 $400 Costy's Auto Parts USA-PA(Mansfield) E-mail 1-800-424-7772
1995
Engine
Chevy Camaro RWD,SFI,3.4,AOD, 060613 $400 Costy's Auto Parts USA-PA(Mansfield) E-mail 1-800-424-7772
1995
Engine
Chevy Camaro RWD,SFI,3.4,AOD, 060799 $400 Costy's Auto Parts USA-PA(Mansfield) E-mail 1-800-424-7772
1994
Engine
Pontiac Firebird 3.4 121,000 3618 $350 B & B Salvage, LLC. USA-PA(Mount-Joy) E-mail 1-717-653-2685 / 1-717-653-7343
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you can do a search on why the fwd blocks wont work.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

This is the closest one for me. About 45 min away. Although this wasnt up when I started collecting my parts Oh well, I already have enough parts to get me started with my 3.1. Ill put the parts on and shoot some pics once I get the engine out, which should be with in the next week or two.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

That is an awesome list above,

85berlinetta2.8, where did you search for that stuff? Some kind of parts locator?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

from the looks of the list it looks like it came from car-parts.com

85berlinetta2.8

yup

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I bought a complete 3500 this week, for the same price I paid for a top end only a couple of months ago - through car-part.com

Grim, if you get a 3.4, not only will the swap be simpler, but you can upgrade to a 3500 top end a lot easier later.

85berlinetta2.8

\quote...somthing about replacement and displacement

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I may upgrade to a 3.4 later, but for now Im going to see what my 3.1 can do. Seeing how I have the 3100 pistons, an external DIS trigger wheel assembly, and my money tree out back is has begun hibrinating for winter.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Inching along...
Got the coolent hoses off...


Got the radiator out...
Looked like a tree was hiding his leaves in there...


And I got the AC radiator(condensor?) out...


Found some surface rust under there...not to happy about that, but it should be able to be fixed.
Next time I spend time working on the car I should be taking the engine out. Hopefully by my day off this rain stops

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

The project is creeping along nicely. I know that you don't have lots of time. So the motor is comming out next if weather allows and a turbo 3.1 going in correct?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I tinker after work a little and on my days off. I prefer to work on it when Im the only one home...less people telling me "you know I wouldnt do it that way" or "whats that?", "whats that do?", "why are you doing that?".
What Im planning on doing a full rebuild with 3100 pistons, 3X00 top end, headers, turbo w/intercooler, a nice size cam, rebuilt tranny, and posi.
And yes as long as the weather cooperates, and I have help, I want to pull the engine/tranny this week.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Turbo 3.1/3100 hybrid

This is gonna be a mean sombitch

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Thats what Im hoping
Im going to smooth out the 3400 plenum and I want to put something on the top. I know a guy that airbrushes. So what design/words could I put on there? Oh and the plenum will be black.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Get 3100 with flames on them for the manifold.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You mean like this? (unfinished still)...



I also polished some valve cover to match (going on a customer's car)...

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. I will probubly get it to that point and than paint it black. Im not much of a flashy person...Chrome/polished aluminum is not really my thing. I was thinking of a tall while Camaro symbol down the middle or a white Chevy BowTie down the middle. Something simple and plain yet eye-catching.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

So I have tomorrow off and it looks as thought the rain is going to break and stop by noon. Ive been talking to a guy I work with and he keeps telling me that I can pull the engine solo...this coming from a guy who use to make drag cars. He recently sold a Dodge Demon with a 5xxci engine

Xoferif

Yep, it's a small engine...comes out nice and easily...it's really only a one man job, but it's nice to have an extra set of eyes.

I never even had to take off the hood to get it out or to put it in...it cleared...barely...and I never removed the radiator as there's plenty of room in there, and I wasn't pulling the trani with the engine. Love how easy it is to work on these engines.

Btw, I think a white, Chevy bow tie would be a nice touch....but it's a GM engine....so, I think a Camaro symbol would be more fitting.

slow_90firebird

Hey, I know you say that the FWD blocks won't work in the RWD cars, but will the top end?

I used to be on mymonte.com all the time and there was a guy that made really nice stuff for the 60* motors. Everyone on the board had good things to say. His site was www.milzymotorsports.com

92RS(real slow)

looks like your making some great progress I love watching other peoples projects keep up the great work

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

You can get the FWD blocks to fit under the hood. THe topend swap has been done many times and is well documented.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Well guys, I cant believe what I did today...


I ran into a few "kinks". The engine hit the firewall a little and left 1 dent and a few scratches. And I couldnt get 1 wire off of the starter, so in my fury I ended up cutting it....I got a little frustrated. I have tomorrow off as well, so I plan to seperate the engine/tranny and get the engine on the stand. Oh and my bro ended up helping. So now i have to buy a case of beer...and share it

Oh and I have a question. At the end my brother took the relief screw all the way out of the pump on the engine hoist and out came oil . It was an accedent and he hasnt worked with cars before so I didnt flip out. Is there a way to refill it or do i need to get a new one?

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

I be doing that in the next few months except I only have a weekend to get the motor in and the 3.4 in. Any tips for getting the motor out?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Plug the tailshaft on the tranny. I was told that a bag secured on there was good........nope. If this is a daily driver than it might be tough to get it torn out and a new one back in in a weekend. That took me about 5-5.5 hours(my first engine pull) to pull the engine. So if you have to strip the ould one, pull it, drop in a new one, and put it back together so you are going to have to really devote some time.
Mabye once my head clears I can give a few more detailed tips.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

The 3.4 I'm droppig will almost be complete. The only thing that I would have to swap are the accessories, fuel rail, and tranny. I might wait till spring break though so that I have a week to do the swap and work out any bugs that might surface.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I wouldn't buy from Miltzy. I've seen their port work.

Either buy from 60DegreeV6 (Ben) or 60DegreeInclusive (Me).
----------
Looks like you handled it well. Actually is easier to pull the tranny and engine together, but it's tough sometimes to get them bolted back together out of the car.

Also you had the hood pulled due to the rust, correct? I'm going to pull just the engine, and bolt the shortblock back in so those two top bell housing bolts are easy - hood is staying on.

Can't wait to see your baby fly this summer!!! Looks like I have some competition, lol.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. I had to take the fenders off to get to the rust. So in order to do that the hood had to come off. I dont think I could have gotten the engine and tranny out with the hood on. Just the engine...probubly doable with the hood on.
Also I am planning on getting a rebuilt tranny because mine has a little slippage. Figured nows a good time to get a rebuilt one.


That makes two of us.

89RsPower!

I just saw the pic of the injectors on the first page, just curious why 8 injectors?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

^^It came in a set of 8. They are V8 injectors

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

When you have a trans built you should consider improving it a bit. The 60* trans retained the 27 spline shaft and most of the associated hardware throughout it's use in 3rd gens, so needless to say it's not the strongest trans out there. Take a look at this thread I started a while ago. ->
www.thirdgen.org/techboard/transmissions-drivetrain/436336-improving-early-th700s.html
It's intended for pre- '87 th700's but applies to just about any th700. If you're going to shop for your own parts I highly recommend patc.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Well after taking a couple days off to recoupe from the engine pull, I got the engine/tranny seperated...


Got the engine on the stand...


And the tranny into the corner...



...just in time to get tthe garage bay cleared for my moms car before a nasty freezing rain storm.
Oh and I found out that the rear camshaft cover gasket has been leaking. Eather way, this engine was do for a rebuild.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Started into the engine today.
Got the LIM off...



Took off the driver side head.......



Took off the pass side head...



And a shot of what it looks like now...



I looked at the cylinder walls real quick (where I could see) and it dosent look like there is much, if any, scoring. Besiders a few bad gaskets, the engine still looks pretty good so far.
Oh and the intake gaskets were Felpro. So I know that, at least, the intake has been removed.

Spike-Z

iTrader: (4)

Car looks pretty solid for a LSx swap!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

He should be running a sweet motor when this is finished. Nothing like the look on someone's face when they just got beat by a v6. The stock 3100 heads he has should be flowing about 180CFM if he doesn't port them. Add a turbo and it should be a 300+hp engine (conservative) - the shortblock weighs less then 200lbs, and the top end weighs about 45 (yes, I have weighed them). Nothing wrin with an LSx, but you are in the wrong section if you want to talk someone into swapping a V8. He's got a nice collection of parts already to potentially make this a 11-12sec v6 (providing susopesion/traction upgrades).Chris, All the 660's I pulled apart had good looking cyl walls and the cross-hatches are still appaprent (even over 100k). They all also have that nasty carbon ring at the top of the bore (also note the extra carbon on number 5 and 6 pistons). Hone them, and you should be fine. Make sure you clean the block really good after every process (unless you are having it hot tanked). Chack your cam bearings now while they are easy to get to, but if your oil was changed on a regular basis, they should be good (cam-priority oiling in the Gen1 blocks ). PM me if you need help with any details, since I just finished a Gen1 shortblock, but looks like you are moving along nicely How's the rust situation? Is your friend going to help?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I thought about doing this but decided against it for 2 reasons. I want to build a fast v6 and I dont have the money for that swap.

Ive been looking into changing the cam bearings, and I keep finding that its best to have a shop do them. But summit had a tool that can do it. Ill have to see if mine are sill good.
And the rust...car is still in my garage. My friend told me he can fix the rust and paint the car for about $2000 +/-. Hes giving me a BIG discount. He wanted the engine out before he does anything. Now I just need to get him out here to get a better look at it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ Coming along very nicely Grimm, how are your fingers feeling....?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, and my fingers/hands feel great. All the cuts remind me that they are still there.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Had a pretty productive day. First off I spun the engine upside down and this fell out of somewhere...Im guessing its for the oil pump...



I also knowticed that I must have bottomed out and hit the oil pan...



I got the pan off, oil pump off, crank and water pump pulleys off, balancer off, pistons out...



Went to take off the water pump, and this happened to 2 bolts...

Anyone know how to get these out when stripped?


And finally a pic looking into the cylinders...

Xoferif

There's a hole in the rear main cap that that metal rod god goes into...as you suspected, it powers the oil pump.

As for the stripped hex screws...not sure...all my bolts on my 3.1 were sockets...I'm grateful for that. Did you try allen wrenches?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I tried vice grips but the top of the bolt is tapered so they kept on slipping off.

enswrob

actualy that shaft that fell out connects the oil pump to the dizzy

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I replaced my waterpump torx bolts with ones from a 3.4 with hex heads.Try taking the next size up and hammering it in there. One it's jambed in there really tight, turn them slow. Also heat on the block will help.Looks like you didn't have the perfect size, it's an odd one (can't remember off the top of my head and out of town to look in my toolbox) - it doesn't come in the regular sets.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

It was actually the right one. It had a really good fit...hat to wiggle it in there. I started to twist it with my rachet and before it even moved it popped all the teath out. Ill try to use the nest size up tomorrow...also my dad has a set of normal hex bolt, rounded head, removers that I will try tomorrow as well.
I also want to replace them with normal hex bolts when Im done.

fictmich

If you have to you can grind off the head of the bolts (like they're any good to you now anyway) then you can get the water pump off. Then all you need is a vice grips, penetrating oil, and a torch.

nixon5

usually when i strip a torx bolt i just bust out the dremel with a cutting wheel and turn it into a flathead screw but it looks like you might need to hammer in a bigger size.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Grimm, this used to happen to us all of the time. Just file down the rounded side of the bolt, do this on two opposing sides, this way the vice grip can grip it properly. Once the vice grip is on nice and tight, add an extension to the vice grip (like a single tire iron) for leverage, and that bolt will break loose immediately....

-Gaspar

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all the tips. I hammered in a bigger size, it griped it, and rounded the middle even more. So at that point I decided to just grind off the heads of the bolts...

At this point I grabbed the bolts with the vice grip and they twisted right out Although I ended up gouging the water pump. But I guess it would be good to buy a new one anyways.


Got the timing chain cover off to reveal an old timing chain...

Took the chain and cam off/out. The cam bearings have 1 rough spot on each. They arent destroyed but seem bad enough that I dont want to test them.


The crank is ready to come out...



And the crank is out...