Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I would like for those who are in the know with BOTH systems to go over the pro's and con's of each individual system. I DO NOT want this to turn out into a "bashing" contest, I'm asking for realistic benefits of the individual systems.....

For those unaware, I'm building a hihgly modded 3.1 V6 Chevy for my '92 Pontiac Trans Am. Serious weight reduction has already started, including a fiberglass Ram Air I hood, notchback, and doors (approximately 3000-lbs, w/out driver, give or take a hundred). Plenum, lower intake, heads will soon be obtained from Dave. Trans will employ a 3500-4000 TCI stall speed, stock driveshaft, posi rear w/3.42 cogs out back.....

In the process of obtaining a GT66 turbo, w/the wastegate and BOV already being decided on. Tube routing is still being contemplated, but should be decided on very shortly. All that's left is the ECM. I'm calling for very thorough opinions here. The engine will be running on methanol in the very near future, for boost being well beyond 20-psi....

I'm honestly leaning toward the EBL, but am constantly being made aware of limitations, as well as various features of the two....

Discuss.

- Rob

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

lol ill start this one

ms +
high or low impedance injectors
boost levels of upto 44 psi
on the fly tunning
no need to burn chips
easy tunning with wideband
ability to run dis/dizzy
nitrous/methanol control
shift lights
+ alot of other optional functions
down side is wiring it which isnt all to hard


and u already know my thoughts on the ebl

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The MegaSquirt is considered to be an excellent product by everyone who's installed the unit, and people have had tremendous success with it. There are people on this board though who have had the very same success with the EBL units as well, and from what I'm reading on the dynamicefi website, is constantly being upgraded on and improved. I'm hoping some of the people using the system will chime in on this thread, as I need to finalize this very very soon.....

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

talk to toehead he runs a ms in a v6 car i belive, theres also a few guys on ftv6 that run the ms units on the 60* v6's

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Toehead....? LMMFAO!

I can only imagine what the guy looks like LOL.....

Yeah, I read a few testimonials about the Mega-Squirt from other websites, but I would like some comparisons from the fellow board-members on Thirdgen.org....

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i dont think anyone here currently runs a ms.check in the dfi board

btw how many ebl applications are under boost?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is exactly what I'm hoping to clarify. I remember RBob mentioning successful boosted builds employing the EBL system. Although the website embellished "up to" 15-psi, I don't see why the EBL wouldn't handle anything higher than that. But again, I'm hoping someone who's familar with the system will clarify it for me. I need this car to be both finished, and ready, very very soon....

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i would find out id ebl can run more then 6 injectors as well, with ms u can have a second set of injectors that run on there own seperate table etc

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Website indicates that the system is being used on port injected engines, so I'd have to assume that it does. Also, before anyone mentions, having a '7730 ECM wouldn't be an issue for me, as I have about twenty different ECM's from various builds lying around....

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

While EBL fires the injectors more often (2x more then a batch fire system), it seems to work ok. There may be some issues if the ECM goes into P + H firings with saturated injectors. All and all, it seems to work ok, though, and should run fine on boosted PFI apps. If you plan to wind the snot out of the motor, though, firing the injectors 2x as often may cause some issues at high RPMs.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

whats the high rpm limit of ebl? can it run the 6 port injectors+ 2-4 aditional injectors. i know tbi injectors are low impedance, but just how many low imp injectors can the ebl handle?his motor is prolly gonna be running around 50- 60# injectors

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Dimented, although this is a tad off topic, what are your thoughts on keeping the '7730, albeit going with the syclone code. Any benefits to this....?

Yes, the engine should see close to 7000-RPM's on a consistent basis. Have a couple of 7165's lying around, would you recommend switching to one, if I decide to go with the EBL, and how much of a headache am I going to have re-pinning/re-soldering the stock wiring....

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

There have also been a number of boosted apps with EBL. V8astrocaptain and Fast355 have run it under boost.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

prolly more like 7,500 ish rpms

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not with the engine that's already in it it won't.....

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Not alot or work on the wiring side, but the extra firings could cause issues at those RPMs. Thats sort of borderline. Itll be a ballance between keeping the PW high enough at idle to ensure adiquate firing time but low enough to keep the injectors from using up the available firing time at high RPMs. The V6 165 should work ok with a V8 MAF, I think, unless there are limits of some sort in the code.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

whats the gmsec limit on the code? 255 right just like the v6 maf(302), if so that will be maxed at around 5 psi

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

How many cylinders will this engine have? Im not entirely sure about the V6 apps. as they require a firing every 3 DRPs rather then 4.
----------
Actually, w/ a V6 I think the the ty/cyclone ECM + code would be perfect. That would be my choice.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... this, in conjunction with the EBL, correct? Knowing now that EBL can control for adequate amounts of fuel injection, what it now boils down to are tuning features. I am brand spanking new when it comes to the EBL system, but from what I read though, tuning is literally care-free. Very easy to do. I'm hoping others will chime in and compare such features with the Mega-Squirt, as boost levels will be changed repeatedly.

Opinions...?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah i would feel the sy/ty on the 7730 would be better over the ebl,but from what ive read as u run higher and higher boost the map resolution becomes really crappy.
does sy/ty have antilag features???
im sure the sy/ty code would be just fine,but the ms has so many more useful features built into it out of the box.
and the cost is only slightly more of buying the chip burner,chips.zif adapter.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

But what about running the two together? Both the syclone code enhanced by the EBL system. Would it cause any implications in doing so, and/or have any real benefit....?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That was just something I was tossing out there. Swapping in a 2-Bar MAP sensor, $58 Syclone code, tuned w/EBL....

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

u need at min a 3bar map, and u are deff gonna need some sort of launch control/antilag

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

btw that was supposed to say
im sure the sy/ty code would be just fine for something that ur not trying to go all out on

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

EBL is based on the older early generation computers, and is different then the later ECMs. The EBL is a whole package. Comes with ECM, add-on board, and software. Conversely, the ty/cy ECM will also be a stand alone afair. Just need the comptuer and new map sensor. I beleive there has also been some work on going to the 3-bar MAP.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This heavily depends on the amount of boost that Rob will initially be running. We're not going to be running 20+psi right out of the gate. In fact, I wouldn't recommend that amount of boost until he's completely satisfied with whichever ECM system he utilizes, once it's learned, and once it's tuned, which can take some time. Methanol won't be implemented for awhile....

-G

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ This is one of the many reasons why I tried talking Rob (my cousin) out of the EBL system. Not that it's a bad setup, but if he's going to go the EBL route, I'd recommend that he switch over to a Mass Air Flow setup, and start burning PROM after PROM....

Going the Syclone route is also beneficial, but the MegaSquirt is even superior to that one as well. I'm voting MegaSquirt here, simply for the ease of tuning for higher boost on the fly. I'm sure the EBL is more than capable, but it's too time consuming, especially at the track.

Gaspar

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

maf is not an option at all, the programing in the ecm does not allow for more then 255 gmsec. which u will blow right past @ 5-7 psi.
my car was a maf car there was no point in ecm tunning once u maxed the maf,there was nothig u could do about it

im really trying to get him to steer clear of the stock/stockish ecm all together.
its to much of a hassel to make it work right,specially with this combo.

with the t61/t66 hes deff gonna need antilag features,among being able to run aux injectors on a completly seperate map(if needed).and time based boost control, is also a huge + to the ms

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The TBI PCMs have the ability to do alot, or all of this. Ive been running an LS1 MAF for some time with it (reads up to 512 gms/sec at 1/128 gram precision), and its quite capable. Just need to get some more coders on board to implement the code for other setups.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm in no way referring to a stock L98 MAF sensor. If this route is being considered, simple installation of a translator will allow him to step up to a more modern MAF sensor (preferrably an 82mm ZO6 piece), which would also allow him to increase the size of the inlet piping, quite substantially. From there, it's all in the PROM. Did this very thing on my buddy's Grand National, a MAF oriented system, and he has absolutely no problem at all running close to 30-psi, with a 3 Bar MAP, of course....

Gaspar

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ My point exactly.

Gaspar

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

a GN is a whole diff ecm all together, as it stands now all the piping would be 3 inch, there is no need to go any larger.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Absolutely. In fact, the map sensors only function w/the GN is to supply a signal to the LED Tach in the dash. It doesn't even send a signal to the ECM, nor does it have anything to do with boost control.

^ But I only brought up the prior point just in case anyone considered going that route. I'm still in favor of the MegaSquirt for the 3.1, first and foremost....

Gaspar

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Street Lethal, if you were planning on 15 psi of maximum boost, I'd say EBL hands down. Shortly there will be another version that has Flash on board, no more chips. And, an inexpensive true port conversion will be available. This has the injectors firing in the proper order for a batch fire port setup (it will actually be bank fire).

However, going North of 20 psi you are getting into some serious boost levels. With this I recommend setting the sights higher for an ECM. A good aftermarket (but pricey) would be the way to go.

A sequential system will help a lot. This cuts the injector firing to once every 2 revolutions. The net affect is that the PW is doubled. When running 60#/hr injectors this helps with low speed operation, and reduces the duty cycle constraints at high speed.

You mentioned methanol, even if it won't be for a while. When enough methanol to make a difference is sprayed the injector fuel needs to be cut back. To do this properly it needs to be a function within the ECM. The ECM needs to turn on the methanol and at almost the same time reduce the PW to the injectors. I say 'almost' as the ECM has to delay in order for the methanol to start flowing before reducing the PW.

(These are some of the reasons I left the EBL at a 2-bar maximum. I could drop in 3-bar support, but it is the whole picture that needs to be looked at.)

A lot of the Sy/Ty guys have moved on to the FAST XFI systems. There are other systems that can be considered. Another item to consider is whether a catalytic convertor is going to be run (being FL, I don't believe there will be). If there is then closed loop fueling is required. Otherwise you can run open loop fueling all of the time.

Food for thought.

RBob.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

What is EBL?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bob, does this mean if I installed the EBL as it sits now, then deciding later on to step up to the Flash version when it's released, it won't require an entirely new setup, I can simply upgrade/adapt it to the existing EBL unit that I originally installed....?

Yeah, the engine will definitely see these boost levels. I've considered some of the more expensive units, but I'm always being told by racers that, although these systems do what they say their supposed to do, a lot of guys always seem to revert back to a more enhanced version of the stock system, so long as it get's the job done....

Thanks for responding Bob.

Click here....

I myself have two third gen's that I'm building. The '92 six banger above, and a recently aquired '91 Formy that I picked up from one of Dave's buddy's. The EBL system is going in the Formula, I'll just go over the best possible scenario (in reference to which ECM to utilize) with some of the users, until the Flash version is released, but that's a whole other thread, and a whole other forum....

Will now start considering MegaSquirt for the V6, and will update this thread accordingly with the results....

-Rob

AM91Camaro_RS

I've been planning to run the sy/ty code on my turbo motor.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Keep me informed w/your success. I've contemplated this route (but I was going to go with the 4.3 engine along with it), but with the amount of features that the EBL has to offer over it, I'd more than likely go w/the latter.....

AM91Camaro_RS

i'll let ya know...probably gonna be a while though. its been a slow project

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL Flash will be a different board. To go from the current EBL setup (with a chip) to the Flash will require the new board. The reason is that the Flash setup is integrated into the EBL/ECM for control. This allows for features that otherwise could not be done.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Then I'll wait for the EBL Flash to be released then. The '91 Formy will need to be done by the next car show here @ Raceway (September '07), so hopefully the Flash version will be readily available by then. Worst case scenario, I'll just pick up the EBL (non flash), as it's a great deal more tuner friendly then the stocker. I'll just send you a different ECM, and figure out how to re-wire the stock harness in the interim....

Need to get you up here racing w/us one weekend Bob!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bob, still leaning toward the EBL w/the boosted V6 application. Just picked up a GT66 Turbo, and am waiting on some other miscellaneous pieces to arrive. The stock 3.1, although pretty stout from the factory, obviously won't handle upwards of 15-psi (20+ range), and live, on a constant usage basis. Another V6 is being built properly to handle such boost levels, however, in the interim, the turbo is being installed onto the engine that's already in the engine bay. Unilkely this engine will even see "15-psi" on a constant basis, but being that EBL can support it, for now, as well as other critical areas (fan switch, speed limiter, rev limiter etc...), you've literally solidified my decision when you stated "Hands Down"....

Heads are having some work done to them, as well as the LIM/UIM and TB. Haven't decided on any cam specifications as of yet, but am more than likely going with a reverse split grind (on the stock engine). Can you do anything with the stock '7730, or would you recommend I switch to another ECM entirely. Once the ECM is sent to you, then sent back to me, what would you then recommend, in reference to tuning. Have a pretty good idea of what's needed, but for the other's, as well as myself, could you kindly delve into what is needed, as well as what you would recommend (software, hardware, etc.). I've recently seen the Mega-Squirt, what comes with it, and what it entails (in reference to installation, and how to begin), and was hoping you could elaborate for everyone on how to get started w/EBL (again, for a comparison reasoning)....

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Sorry for the MAF newbie question, but what the heck is a translator? Where do I get one?

I am wearing out the search function, please help!!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^... Click Here, Click Here and Click Here

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Thanks a bunch! I just LOVE turbo Buicks, anyway, so that is great.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Mmmm, Z06 MAF with a translator. Sweet.

$350 for MAF parts.