firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I don't think you did, I just know how much quality costs, as I own a construction company. Just trying to confirm why it was so high, but I'll see if I can get some flanges made up and go from there.
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Dave, would you do the rounding of the ports after the flanges are made?
What size AL again?
Thought about it, you don't need to send me anything, I can just use a gasket (if you're matching to fel-pro) and he can make a copy. Might take a week or so, he just got a big order from Motorola to make stainless injection molds for cell phones (he works with like .000001 tolerances) and I think he's going in at 12hr on and 4hr off for a few days.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah matching to a felpro gasket would be fine,getting the radius cnc'ed would be best,the radius is hard as hell to machine cause of the odd shaped port,having it done on a cnc would keep the radius uniform and even all the way around,which would make the port flow even better. a good radius at the entry could mean 2x the flow compared to no radius or an ununiform radius.
off the top of my head i belive the flanges were 3 inch wide and 9.250 long by .500 thick.though i can let u know first thing in the morning when i get to the shop if u can print out some pics so he can see what mine looke dlike with the radius and stuff.
but if he cant do it i can do it

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

No, he can make pretty much anything I want. Like I said he does tons of stuff, even some side work for a local race shop, ie sleeving rod ends, etc.

DaSkinnyGuy

Dave read your private messages

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

replied man,ull have to exscuse me sometimes i get 50 pms a day it seems, so im always a lil slow answering them

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

firstfirebird, the flanges are 2.500 wide x 9.250 long x .500 thick.
just have him center the gasket on the material,it wont work if he trys using material not as wide,it has to be 2.5inch wide.

Gumby

Dave this is heading into the dust like all good projects here. Gotta cut your cost usually on labor. Don't pay your self but min wage.

I do better doing thing cheap with hi volume then to get what I deserve and just get by.

Do some math

you can sell maybe 10 of them over the next 2 years for $400 or sell 100-150 easy for $150 bare raw, 10-20 for $200-$300 if you offer to powdercoat, chrome or maybe get like custom cut pattern top plates to weld on.


I know you deserve $400 for the raw bare intake but volume will pay off in the end. As everyone here is cheap and its why no one bought them $3-500 headers projects that have failed 3-4 times.

Gotta get some jigs made and cut time and cost in half if you wanna really make any money. Trust me I know first hand.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i would if i could,but i dont own the shop,lol.if first firebird can get these flanges cnced for me price will come down a decent bit,its hard to cut costs any other way,material costs what it costs,and so are welding exspenses.
the 2 most expensive things on this manifold are welding,followed by machine work, it takes a few hours to weld this thing together,to be sure everything is square and it dosent warp.
im gonna try to get the price down to the mid 200 range like i had originally thought it would be

Gumby

Need to find a wood working friend to help show ya how to make a jig rig for the flanges. Can easily use a modfyied router bit to do the finish work on the holes once most of the waste is cut out. aluminum and wood are so similar.Top parts rides on a blank copy with a bearing and ya can easily dup the flanges quick. Wood working guys who are into it always build jigs to reproduce work.



Off topic but speaking of wood, craftsmen now has this $300 mini cnc like machine to cut 3d patters into wood planks. Could easily be switch to aluminum if you can slow it down. Does real fancy patterns almost like a water jet too.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Being a master carpenter, I know what you are talking about. Whan I asked Dave if he wanted to have the ports rounded, I immediately thought of my variable speed router! However, once my friend makes one part and saves it into the CNC, he can duplicate it as many times as he wants (as you know). So I'll see what I can do, but my friend is working mad hours for the next few days. It would be nice if the three of us can get together and make these for a price that most of the V6 guys can afford.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

heya firstfirebird, if u can get me flanges i can do the manifolds for around 250 each,depending on how much the flanges cost.its the flanges that drive the price up.
the problem with using a router is if it dosent leave a nice smooth finish or a nice radius,there still gonna be time involved with cleaning them up and grinding.but hopefully firstfirebird can get these cnc'ed for me

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I'm sure I can get them it's just a matter of when and how much. The router leaves a good enough finish to lightly sand and finish with stain/polly on wood, and I know the carbide bits would cut the AL nicely. You know you can get the bits in 1/4" or 1/2" shank and use them in a mill or drill press (they are not cheap, though) and come in all different radius'. But we won't even need to go there though, lol. I'll see if I can get 20 to start with, the time is in the programming, once that's done it's a matter of pushing a button and comming back in a few min.
He can cut over 1/2" of AL on his lathe in one pass and no cooling! He is enjoying making this custom stuff, he gets bored after making the same stuff for 20yrs, haha.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

gotta love them G codes, or are they called something else now? it's been like 13yrs since I did any CNC ops.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Dunno, I've used manual machines. I can tell you however, that some of the machines he uses has the doors disarmed so he can watch the cuts (stay out of the way cause the chips burn, lol). If you have a Motorola cell, chances are he made the injection mold.

Gumby

Well thing here is to get Dave set up doing his own mill work so it cost next till nill, just material cost. And Dave yea a router will it get almost baby smooth like a CNC, wood is very similar. But once a jig is made and ya do a holesaw cut to get most of the waste I bet it don't take but 30 mins to knock two out. Do them while ya watch TV.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I'll probably get them at a minimal cost, by that I mean I'll have to barter. I gave him some fishing equipment for his boat and is setting me up with all my turbo flanges etc out of scrap he has laying around at work. Just dunno haw much 1/2" AL scraps he has laying around. He's got a regular shift today, so I'll talk to him and see.
Gumby, you said $300 for a CNC from Craftsman?! Gotta check this out...
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EDIT : Found what you are talking about, the CNC is $1,900.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Bench+Power+Tools&pid=00921754000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Jointers%2C+Planers+%26+Shapers&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

However thay do have an attachment for a drill press that turns it into a mill for $219.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Power+Tool+Accessories&pid=00927593000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Drill+Press&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

69charger383

Hey Dave not to jack your thread er anything but if I made a blueprint for a custom plenum would you be able to make it for me. I wouldnt mind paying the $500 or whatever amount it would be as long as its solid and could stand up to about 15psi. Let me know man and good luck selling the ones you designed already.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

get me a blueprint to take a look at and ill let u know,


ok guys firstfirebird has come threw with getting me cnced flanges ( so thank him for the huge price drop)
prices will be as follows

#1 bare raw finished manifolds ( bare aluminum) 250$'s

#2 powdercoated manifolds 250$'s +25-75$'s depending on the powder coating color u chose.Colors range from normal basic colors to pearls and colorchangin i.e chamelon

#3 ceramic coated250$'s + 80-150$'s depending on color
colors range form standard jethot color to blue,turbo x and a few others
ill post up links to some color charts when i get the chance.
ok now thats done with who is in for one?

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

I'll be down once I get my W2 cashed, so long as it's a bolt on procedure like you said. Probably powdercoated blue.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Yeah I'll be in to. I'll just get straight aluminum.

DemonKnightDK

for 250 I'll probably get one. half to get some holliday bills cought up first. (and buy a rebuild kit, and turbo+ MTC-5 cam ect..)

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

do not go with an mtc-5, u can get a true turbo grind for 89$'s from delta camshaft, if u want i can supply u with specs for a good turbo cam

DemonKnightDK

will it be compatiable with the stock computer?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah its a lil bigger then a 260h almost the same it just has more lift and a lil wide lobe seperation,at most u would need to bump base fp about 5 psi otherwise it may run a tad lean at idle

DemonKnightDK

yea if you want to PM me the specs on that and how to get ahold of deltacams that would be great. How well would this cam work on a non-turbo engine? (i plan on adding the turbo later after the inital rebuild and suspension upgrades.)

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

pictures do not do this paint justice, 2 step paint silver metalic base,with translucent blue top coat.
of course i was in a hurry to putit on the car so i had only given the paint 20 mins to set up, so i marked it all up,so i pulled it again today to blast it and repaint it.this time ill let the paint dry a few days before i attempt to reinstall the manifold

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That's how I did my UIM, same color even!
That UIM would look good in my car, LOL.
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Actually I let it set for 4hrs or more (still put couple of marks), that stuff takes forever to dry!

djwimbo

this might be a stupid question. But if you're building a custom intake why not use a TPI throttle body? They can flow 800-1000 CFM. Or would it not be worth the time/effort, for the minimal increase. Thought I'd ask though the 12 sec V6 may be the only one needing that improvement.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i could but for most ppl that would/may buy one a stock tb is more then enough.
as for mine,im going to a ford style tb around 75-90 mm in diamater

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Have you seen the Northstar TB's thay're selling on 60*v6? 75MM for $50 shipped. Here's the link...
http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=34483

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i dont know if thosw will work with the 3rdgen ecms(idle air control motor)

anyways did u use the metal cast paint from duplicolor? thats what i used and must say for the hurry i was in it came out really nice. 3 base coats and 2 top coats,next time im doing 5 base with a stenciled black logo before i add 3 top coats.
any word on thos flanges yet?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes, Duplicolor.
The programs are done and a test cut was made (w/o the radius yet) to make sure they were a perfect match for the flange. They are PERFECT even though he had problems trying to measure a flimsy gasket, lmao. They should be done soon, he got set back a little bit when his boss' son threw away my downpipe flange that only needed to be counterbored when the scrap guy came to the shop while my friend was at lunch ;(. The boss' son felt so bad that he is writing a CNC program so the flanges will be available soon (the origional was being hand cut). It's going to be 1/2" steel with all the holes bored into it, then the exhaust exit is going to get a counter bore slightly larger than the down pipe to make it easy to weld to with my little machine.
I'll start a new thread for the turbo inlet/downpipe flanges that will be available in mild or stainless steel (various grades also).

Kamorov

I was talking to my fabricator about redoing my upper intake plenum and he suggested an smooth flow spider intake similar to the TPI 350. Would that work as good if not better than your box style plenum and if so about what diameter piping should I use to the ports on the lower plenum and how high should it be?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

They come with the Idle Air Control and Throttle Position Sensors. Think if the sensors don't work, I could adapt the 3.1 sensors? How did you get your Ford TB to work?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Looks like they're going to work, do you think you can but a bigger neck on one of those?
- To take advantage of the 75mm bore?

djwimbo

changing the intake runner length and diameter changes the power band of the engine. The intake runners act as a reservior of air. other than space limitations, a short style runner provides a higher powerband, and opposite w/ a long runner. Long runners provide a steady and strong torque curve but on the low end. Tuning the lengths, allows you to match an intake to your desired rpm range and set where you want your torque to be. HP is only how fast your engine makes torque, so tuning on custom parts is important.

as far as what i've looked into it, the reason a long runner runs low rpm range is the length of the runner runs "dry" between intake valve openings. the shorter has less of a "reservior" so it won't fill the cyl as well b/c there's less readily avail air. ... long discussion kinda the same theory as columning effect of exhaust.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here you go. They're almost $1000, want one?

EDIT : I can't see spending almost a grand for less than 20hp. Although it would probably work better on a turbo motor. Here's the dyno for it...

djwimbo

Somebody should probably start a sticky for intake runner design in the engine/fabrication portion. It's a interesting discussion, I've read for a number of hours on just that topic alone. I don't have sources to cite for it right now, but I remember Engine Masters magazine had some really in depth articles on how it works.

Blue1989RS

I know I keep thinking of it, but why not put a TBI setup on your car? They have short runners, decent plenum volume, and you can put the 4.3 throttle assembly on it. If you're really going for HP, this may be a better idea. Get rid of those long a$$ TPI runners altogether.

I just looked it up, the TBI 2.8 made 150ft.lbs. of torque, just like the treolo intake, and I bet it would make a butt load more HP if cleaned up.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

That thing is really slick looking, who sells that? Or is that custom made?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

.
They are made by a company called Trueleo. There is a long post about this intake somewhere in this section.

DaSkinnyGuy

firstfirebird what motor is that intake for?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

INFO------All the info you'll ever need.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I know some of you guys are PM-ing Dave about when the manifolds are going to be ready, and I'll have to say it's my fault they aren't into production yet. The machinist has cut one flange only to realize that the bolt holes were not symmetrical, although the gaskets are a perfect match (he also wasn't happy with the 1/8" radius on the ports and re-wrote the program for a 3/16" radius) He promised them to me on Monday and I'll mail them to Dave ASAP. Sorry for the delay, but not only are the flanges going to be easier to make from here on out - they are going to be much better than a hand cut radius.

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Awesome! Anxiously awaiting it!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here's the flanges that were CNC'd. He started with 3/4" stock and milled them down to 1/2" to be sure that they are perfectly flat. I put a Fel-pro gasket on top to show how close the machining is :

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

u are the man they deff look better then my hand cut ones

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Those look awesome! Can't wait 'till Dave gets them!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

there is one thing i forgot to mention about these,they will not work with a 2.8 throttle body due to the way the iac motor hooks up.these must be used with a 3.1 tb

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I'm not, but I'll tell the CNC guy that you said so.
I'll ship them to you by the end of the week.