Naft

basically im trying to get the low-down on what you could change and still pass a visual smog check. i know its supposed to be all emissions related equipment(anything that interferes with combustion, right?), but what are the specifics of that, and even more specifically(and hard to answer im sure), what of that could one possibly get away with.

an example of something that to me shouldnt matter is transmission type. but i think the underhood label specifies the tranny, and i know the emissions equipement differed between t-5 and 700r4 during 89 at least. since i just swapped a t-5 in, should i now have to swap to all the factory equiped t-5 equipment? i can see why they could say i have to, but really, if i put T/A GFX on my firebird, i dont have to swap in a v-8 to pass smog, so why wouldnt i be able to change my tranmission(i can change mufflers without CARB #s).

secondly , what about changing ignition components? you can change iginition coils and stuff, so would i be able to switch from dizzy to DIS(yah i know there are other complexities, but based purely on the presence of the distributor and/or coil packs) and still pass a visual?

and this is for someone like 2.8boy who is a smog technician, do they check all the sensors(little things like iat, etc) and wire routing and stuff, or do they just give it a once or twice over and make sure the ses light isnt on?. this would be for jsut your run of a mill test-repair station.

Xophertony

wow, in oregon all they did (today on my GTA) was have me tach it up to 2.5K and they checked for hydrocarbons, co2 and noise (passed emmissions, failed noise

as far as visual they held a mirror under the car and checked to see that i had a cat... that was the whole "inspection"

pretty lax. they used to ahve to put it on a dynometer.... but now only 91-present.

2_point8_boy

if you swap to a t-5 then you are supposed to swap all the emissions stuff in that came with a t-5. The reason it matters for emissions is because of the use of an air pump during cold start. Manual trans cars didn't meet emissions standards during cold start without it, so they say you are supposed to have. Most people don't bother with it though, but you might want to think about it because your area could be a heavy BAR enforcment area, making all the techs a little antsy about stuff like that, I don't know for sure. It's not something I would have pushed if everything else looked ok.

You cannot change to DIS without changing computers, which means that you need an E.O. number for it. Not gonna happen unless you get a guy who just doesn't care about his license.

The reason you can change mufflers is becasue all of the smog reducing equipment is finished by that point.

As for wiring, I just make sure it's all plugged in where it needs to go, isn't tapped into, and make sure the light works, but doesn't come on during the test. It HAS to come on with the Key on, engine off for the bulb test, but must not come on at all during the test, whether it goes back off on it's own or not. Most guys I know are pretty by the book, as am I, but you do get those who just don't care.

Let me know if there are any other questions I can answer on the program for you.

Jeff

Naft

ok, i can do the air stuff, thats not a huge deal right now(PITA sure, but w/e). I'm in a basic enforcement zone, not an "enhanced"(i just love the bull**** terms).

what do you know about the referee stations? im contemplating switching to a full 93-95 setup . . . are there substantial fees associated with getting a car through the refs, or just meticulous detail regarding the oem equipment for the donor car?


ive always wondered though, what would the legalities be if say i took a 74 firebird, cut the chassis up a bit, and put an entire 89 firebird around it . . . smog exempt, right(pre-76)? now does it make a difference if i had cut everything off the chassis except some metal around the vin plate, and put the 89 parts around that?

i guess technically federally the cat(s) have to be in the stock location, but that would just be X,Y,Z position relative to the vin plate, right? or if the vehicle didnt come with cats . . .

as long as i clearly took the position that it was a highly modified '74 there wouldnt be anything fraudulent, IMO . . . time to do some legal research maybe.

ill probably be shooting you some pms sometime in the future if thats cool.

2_point8_boy

As for the referee stations, there is a fee to get it looked at, but it's about the same as a regular inspection. If you swap to a full 93-95 setup, you will have to visit them and EVERYTHING that is engine/smog related MUST be swapped with it.

They will do a very strict inspection to make sure that everything is there and functioning properly, then they'll do an emissions test to it to make sure it passes out the tailpipe.

If you were to swap stuff into a '75 and earlier vehicle, you don't even have to tell the DMV about it. The car will never see another smog inspection in it's life no matter what engine it has, or even what body it has on it. If you want, if it's '75 or older(exempt), take the cats off and don't worry about them, no one's ever going to look again.

Feel free to PM me or just keep the posts here. I'm sure that other people have similar questions about swaps and stuff, and I think it's a topic that a lot of people don't fully understand. California has some of the strictest laws in the nation when it comes to visual and emissions partions of the inspection, so it's good information for everyone.

Naft

ok, as long as it isnt like some $400 fee or some **** like that, i might just do a 4th gen swap.

although buying a junk(but clean titled) 2nd gen (or hell, pre '75 anything) and swapping vin plates--i mean everything but vin plates, just simplified--is probably just as easy(and a ton easier as far as future modifications go), but it seems slightly shaky legally . . . (as far as registration purposes).

do you know of any issues regarding extreme modification and registration purposes? like is there a legal line drawn between a total overhaul and something as devious as swapping vin plates?

if this at any time gets inappropriate because of legal issues just tell me and i will stop, im just trying to push the limits, not break them(if the laws werent pointlessly strict i wouldnt have to).

the other thing is, would you know how long one could keep getting temporary operating permits? cause i wouldnt mind paying the $15/mo or whatever it is if it let me not have to smog my car.

sorry these are getting pretty dmv'y instead of smog questions, but i figure youre somewhat close to the dmv, so i might as well ask.

i think im gonna dig up the CA VC on the web and check this loophole out, maybe find some others!. thanks again for the answers.

2_point8_boy

As far as the VIN stuff goes, I'm not 100% sure on the legalities of it. I do know that my boss and I are going to be taking a late model Tahoe(2000 or so) and drop a 1966 Suburban body onto the existing frame and drivetrain. The vehicle will be considered a 2000 or whatever year the donor is from, not a '66, but to have something that old and classic as far as the body goes and the ease of doing that kind of swap makes it worth it. I have the laws and regulations regarding smog and crap here at home, so I'll do a little research for you and see what I can come up with.

THe DMV will only give you Temporaries as long as you keep getting failed inspections. They're only supposed to give you 2, but before I became a tech myself, my car failed like 6 times in a row and they kept giving me temps. The thing is that unless you keep going in with a failed smog and they can look it up on the state database to prove that you got one, then they won't give you a new one, so it turns into $65/month to not get you car smogged.

Check out smogcheck.ca.gov for some info, it's the State's official smog check website. It's fairly useless, but once in a while, you'll find some good info.

DOn't worry about asking any questions you feel like. I'll give you exactly what I know and at least give you the skinny on it, whether it's shady or not. Just because I know about it, doesn't mean it's legal, and vice versa. lol

Xophertony

ok, naft. on your swap... you ar planning o getting a frame (chassis) from a pre 75 fbody and putting in the drivtrain of a newer vehicle (completely legal)? if so 2.8boy is right, you don't even need to tell the DMV... your insurance company might want to know.

or do you plan to swap the drivetrain and outer body (stuff you see like hood quarter pannels etc) of a newer vehicle on it. so that the vehicle would in all ways appear to be a 1989 camaro, with a 74 vin? if so you might have some trouble selling that story to DMV/SMOG. but it would be just as legal.. i think.

as far as actualy changing the vin plate... the cars frame is what the vin follows.. if you do a complete body swap (ex: 2002 fbody onto 74 fbody frame) you would keep the vinplate of the frame and put that on the dash of the doner car. even if EVERYTHING besides the frame is 2002 the frame is a 74, the car is a 74, and thats the bottom line....

as for as the taho swap, since the frame is a 2002 the taho is a 2002. (however i am almost positive you could get away with swaping the vin plate from a 66 and get away with it, not that i would encourage fruade like that)

what you cannot do is put a vin plate from a 74 onto a 2002 and call it good. that is fruade. just wanted to clarify that.

Blue1989RS

What if you don't have the original engine setup? Fortunately, I live in a county without smog tests, but I've removed the smog pump, and swapped out the passenger manifold with a s10 manifold without the EGR valve. It physically looks completely normal, except for the pinch/rolled EGR tubes on the driver manifold (hehe). Would I be completely busted?

Naft

yah ok, i was doing some research on some of this stuff, cause i wasnt sure where the line was drawn as to where a total conversion ends and just swapping vin plates starts, but it seems that the vin is stamped up by the dash and also on the frame itself(underbody), so swapping just the vin plate is illegal, and there are strict regulations(havent found them yet) on swapping over parts like the dash and frame, like you have to get enough of the surrounding stuff to make it legal. in this case its much easier for me to just do a 4th gen swap, i dont realy have the resources or time to go cutting up my frame.

hmm, i got 1 temp at first for october, and then near the end of october went and got one that didnt expire till dec 31, without ever even taking another smog test . . . yah i dunno. i know my old boss when i worked construction a few summers always just had temp permits on his vans, but i never asked him about it.


i did hear abour a way to basically permanently extend the due date for a smog certificate, a glitch in the computer system maybe, but supposedly if you go in early to pay your registration, and then pay your registration for the next year in advance, the computer doesnt prompt you for a smog certificate. i would guess because the computer wants a smog certificate for the current year, but doesnt need one for the year after that(biennial), and the status of not-needing one overrides the first year of needing one(because it comes second). i havent tried this myself, but i found a few people on the internet who seem to have done the same thing. food for thought.

2_point8_boy

You need a smog only every other year, not every year, so you can pay for your registration early and the DMV won't ask for a smog because it's not required for the next year. For something like that to happen you would have to pay for 3 years in advance, but the DMV doesn't let you pay even 2 years in advance anymore. You can't pay for the next year until 49 days before the due date printed on the notice. I know, I found this out the hard way.

I got my notice, got the smog done on my car the very next day and had an appointment the day after that. I went in to pay the fees and get the tags and they tell me that it won't even be in the computer system to accept the payment for another week or so. I was so confused because I'm standing right there, have the renewal notice in my hand and the passign smog paperwork, but they won't take my money for another week, so I had to make another appt. and come back in. Retarded!

Naft

ok yeah the stuff i found was all from like 2003, so i figured it was fixed by now.

just lookin for a nice wrecked 93-95 now. by the time i get around to heavy mods(when i have my masters and actually have some money) i dont think ill be living in cali any more.

Naft

hey 2.8, another question . . . after completeing an engine swap with the ref's, i know i then am held to the engine's year for emissions . . . but what about CARB EO numbers? do i stay with what goes for the original car, or am i now bound by the new engine year? or better yet, can i get both?

im wondering for things like headers or whatnot . . . ie the 4th gen pacesetters probably wouldnt fit in the enginebay, etc.


and can you use the referee to approve of parts that dont have a number? like prove that they dont affect emissions the same as the engine swap?

thanks again man.

2_point8_boy

For the E.O. Number, you are now bound ny the year of the new engine/emissions systems. So you'd be out of luck on the headers.

I'm not sure on the referee and things that aren't CARB Approved. I've actually been doing research my self to find this out because I want to do a turbo setup on a 3.4L and have it be smog legal. So far I have found nothing that totally prohibites it, but it takes a lot of time and money and maily equipment that most people don't have access to. I'm lucky because I have the ability to use a dyno for "Cruise tuning" and then I can data log my WOT stuff for tuning there. Like I said, as far as I've found, there is nothing strictly prohibiting it, but it is a very strict process.

Naft

damn, bummer on the EO#, but the ref possibility is inspiring . . . maybe all is not lost after all! although for now ive decided i definitly need to go reliability before performance(and i still have a good deal to work on for reliability, heh), that is certainly good news for the future. if i find anything more out about that possibility ill be sure to share it here.