LD1985

Last winter I bought a 91 rs with a 3.1. The car has a brand new short block from napa. When I bought the car it ran. It needed a little gear in the transmission and an interior swap. Fixed the tranny, swapped the interior, took the car for a drive around the block. Went to get plates and title. Got home with the plates and the car won't start. Since then I have replaced (all with new parts)the spark plugs/ plug wires, distributor and cap, timing chain, knock sensor, all 6 fuel injectors (which was not cheap), used ecm (3 different ones), fuel pump and filter and a lot of micsellaneos sensors. Randomly the car will start, but very VERY rough , and when I give it gas it gets rougher and dies. I took the car too a mechanic and they reaplaced a lot of sensors, their next step was the injectors, I couldn't afford anymore work so I did the injectors myself then. I think they were just replacing things untill it ran...Why not, it's not their checkbook right? A $1,300 car has already cost me $2000 and wont move. Im so frustrated with this car I'm ready to part it out. Which is sad because it's the car I always wanted. Any ideas? My father has been fixing cars for 30+ years and we can't seem to fix it.


The car quit running after I did some steering column work...The column was a mess....Got another whole clean one just incase this was the problem.

If no ideas anyone want a 91 rs for $2,000? Custom paint job.....

Project: 85 2.8 bird

no never mentioned what the fuel pressure ws, if there ws any spark, if th ebattery/alt/starter were checked, if the battery cables were replaced, if the braided ground wire from teh firewall toi teh pas head ws there,

hell,

even if it just cranked or didn't even do that.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

will it crank, just not fire?

I see nothing about the coil, ICM, or distributor checked/rebuilt. Just because the blocks new, dont assume the distrib is.

Battery cables is a good one. my grandprix, it was croded INSIDE the cable, not at the end.

LD1985

I said i replaced the distributor, read a little closer. There is spark..there is power to the rest of the car. I replaced the selenoid on the starter the fuel pressure is perfect. the distrib came brand new out of the box. Car has power, spark and perfect fuel pressure. Like I said...my dad has fixed cars for 30 years and can't figure it out....We certainly have checked the distrib and battery by now.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

it says distrib CAP, not the main guts of the distrib.

What color is the spark?
Done a compression check?
its 91 model right, what about the vats

dodger65

definitely check the vats. definitely check compression. have you put a noid light on one of the injector plugs yet?

Gumby

Just relax and don't get all huffy when asking for help.
You did just say cap.

If you have spark and fuel, you should have fire. It should atleast pop.

Id spray a bunch of starting fluid down its throat and if you still don't get even a pop, it has to be spark. It should atleast give a signs of fire, if it has spark.

If the motor will atleast pop, you know it has spark.

If you 100% sure it has fuel gotta be a busted timing chain.

That almost sound like a timing chain problem. Runs one min, then next it wont do anything.

Pull the PVC or Vcover and make sure the valves are working when you crank.


If you have spark and fuel, it must fire. Espicaly if you load it up with either. It should pop at the very least.


Might of been a new short block but they may of used some old parts.

Doward

Verify timing - #1 is on the PASSANGER side NOT the driver's side!

Verify the distributor IS ROTATING as you crank (pull the plugs/wires, and the cap - then check this)

While teh cap is off, take the ignition module off, and bring it to Autozone - have them test it. I don't care if it is new, VERIFY IT.

Bring the motor back to #1 TDC. Pull the valve cover, VERIFY the motor is on the compression stroke, bring it to TDC, and VERIFY the distributor is pointing at #1.

Repalce the cap, and start from #1, to the passanger side FRONT of the motor, and start replacing the wires.

Firing order: 1-2-3-4-5-6 (easy, I know, lol)

Remove the coil. Have it Ohm tested at Autozone, just to be safe. If you don't have one, pick up a Spark Tester from there ($6) and use it to VERIFY you have good, strong sparkl.

If you do, you've eliminated the spark system COMPLETELY from the problem.

Now check your fuel pressure. You should have ~40 psi, when you put the key in run, WITHOUT cranking it. If not, replace the fuel filter, and try again.

If your fuel pressure is LOWER, but not ZERO - then replace the fuel pump. If it is ZERO, then start checking the fuel pump relay.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

fuel pump relay, good one doward, forgot about that one.

Its also somehow wired into the oil pressure system as well.


Inside the distrib, is a little copper winding thing that hooks to the icm. That could be bad. This is what I'm refuring to on distrib guts.

LD1985

it says "distributor and cap"... i dont know how to be more specific than that...

I also wrote that it will run really rough for a a few seconds....wouldn't this also suggest that it fires? I appreciate the help but its really irritating when you guys aren't reading what I wrote the first time.

I used the spark tool dont remember the color. Cant do compression test. CAnt get the tester all the way in and keep a wrench on it...does anyone sell a better one for these cars?

LD1985

Have 40psi...I also already posted that I have replaced the pump and filter. Checked the wires and distrib location a million times.


ONce again I love how helpfull you guys try to be but don't point out something i must have "forgot" when I clearly stated that I've already done that

LD1985

They did...They didn't buy any new sensors or anything. but i have replaced most of those by now. the car ran just fine the day i bought it though.

LD1985

how do i check the vats? noid light? we used an ohm meter if thats what you mean.

LoneStar666

if you want help on your car, shut up and listen to what they have to say. if not, good luck fixing it on your own, even though you cant.

Persanity

wow your a dick to just come in here and try to tell him what to do exspecial being so young and not knowing anything, he is right in that seems nobody read the entire post he made, he has valid points, i too appreciate all the help i have gotten around here, but everybody knows it is annoying to have ppl tell u to do something u said u did already, now my 2 cents which may not be right since the car has ran, if u replaced the entire steering column is the key hole to start the car from the new part or the car original? is the key your using from its corresponding part? did you rewire it all correctly? because as stated earlier it could be VATS related, also dale the grounding wire on my cars battery was snapped inside the plastic coating, which means bumps caused the radio and interior lights to flicker and lots an lots of other electrical "gremlins"

Dale

iTrader: (12)

need to know the color of the spark. It must be white. blue will fire the car, but run like crap. Orange may not even start the car.

I have a compression guage that has no problem going in the hole and staying. Hoever, hole 1 can be a bitch with the egr and alt bracket.

Also, did you check the fuel pressure before or after, or both replacing the pump. I've known people to not get the adapter hose on right, and the hose blow back off due to the amount of pressure.

however, it does sound more like a vats problem. Explain to us what you did on the column. Not alot of testing it.


Also, for your "attitude". We may be suggesting stuff even though you have done it because all of us have looked at something, said thats not it. Gone back when we were less frustrated and it be the problem. We have suggested a couple things, or asked questions and never got a response. You want us to help, answer the questions.


1. Battery cables, and all ground wires attached. Ohm testing doesnt always work.
2. When it doesnt start, will it crank or nothing at all?
3. Color of spark maters ALOT
4. Have coil and ICM been checked?
5. Fuel pressure check before or after pump replacement.
6. Explain what you did with the steering column. This could very much explain a vats issue.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

thoughts on my way home. Have you checked any computer codes? If its vats, it will show up in the computer codes. Half of your engine sensors would have too.

Also, depending on if its auto or manual. You will have a clutch start switch, or neutral safty switch. Either of these out and your not going anywhere.


My thoughts. We are chasing two problems at once.

First, why wont it start? I suspect vats, coil, icm.
second. Why does it run like crap?. coil, icm, ground wires, its not ran enough to have everything "broke in". And how can you set timing on a car that doesnt run very long and poorly.

LD1985

Thank you..btw I'm a girl....and yes the key is from the original..I had to replace this before in a camaro...Im sure i did it right...the security comes on and then of when i turn the car on....


Im pretty sure the spark was white..if it is blue what would cause that?


1. Battery cables, and all ground wires attached. Ohm testing doesnt always work.
2. When it doesnt start, will it crank or nothing at all?
3. Color of spark maters ALOT
4. Have coil and ICM been checked?
5. Fuel pressure check before or after pump replacement.
6. Explain what you did with the steering column. This could very much explain a vats issue.

1. Battery wires and everything grounded.
2.It will crank always..Sometimes it will try to start..pop over and over again....Sometimes just crank..We noticed the other day that it tried to start after I removed all the spark plugs and regapped them....I have bought new plugs but have not had a chance to start those. The mechanic did not seem to think they needed replaces though. Just trying to cover all my bases.
3. I'm assuming the spark was white because my dad checked them with me.
4.Define check? They have been replaced with new parts and are point at correct spot.
5. Fuel pressure was 38 before pump replacement and 40 after.
6. Couldn't find the horn wire in the column, we found it and hooked everything up. Then the car wouldn't start so I got a new column from the j-yard (used) just incase we messed anything up in the old one. Again tying to cover everything

LD1985

No Codes....When it first happend it gave me the knock sensor code...Which is why i replaced that....Broke the selenoid during that repair which is why its new. As far as I can ell the VATS system is ok I tried to read up on it when I had to replace the lock cylander in my other car. but i only got the basic description.

Attitude? My attitude is when I take the time to explain everything i can think of...Distributor being the third item on the list and get told by 3 people that I need to check my distributor, don't assume it's new, and I only said cap. Or told maybe I should replace the fuel pump, when I spent a whole day under the *** of my camaro wrenching the damn gas tank out to install a $75 pump and then note it in my post. Or how about when I explained how the car runs very VERY rough and get asked is it firing?
I wasn't trying to have an attitude because yes, i need help here..If you think about it I could have been a real dick, but I wasn't.



It's automatic...It seems like an electrical problem when it won't fire and a whole new problem when it will. OUr next guess was the head gasket, but that doesn't explain why it won't fire somtimes.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

1. Maybe try shaking the cables while starting. They could have gotten damaged during engine swaps.

2. If it is spinning over then its not likely to be vats, and its not the neutral safety switch. If either of them were acting up it wouldnt even spin over. Which was not said tell your latest post. Which does eleminate some stuff. This also eliminates a bad flex plate.

3. Please ask what color the spark was from your dad, or re-check it again.

4. You never said the coil and/or icm was checked or replaced, you ignored that whole post. There is also no "pointing in the right direction" on these. They only go in one way. So I do wonder if were talking the same parts.

5. Good deal, elimates the blown hose, and that the relay is working. And many of us have spent the day or weekend swapping out the pump. It aint fun

6. When you switched out columns, you then needed the key part from new column, but the resistance/vats part from the old one. But when vats acts up, it wont even spin.

No codes tells us were generally dealing with something mechanical, but a few elec parts will keep it from running that also dont throw a code.

Next question. When attempting to start, does it ever flood out, or start smelling of raw gas really bad?

Also, try dowards suggestion and verify the distrib is spinning when trying to start the car. This will verify the timing chain is good, and the camshaft isnt snapped or anything.

How much end play is in the distrib?

Also, not sure what books you have on the car. But I do have the offical gm/helms manual for 1991. If you ever need anything, give me a pm and I'll scan the page(s) and email to you.

I bet this will be something so easy, were all going to feel stupid after its done with.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

When you replaced the distrib. Did you put the engine back to 1tdc, pull distrib out, then put new one in.

When you set the timing, did you disconnect the EST wire, then set timing to 10deg, then reconnect the EST wire?

Cruzin Kaz

OK, just please bare with me here as I mean no offense, just trying to help is all. And forgive me if I repeated something already mentioned. So it sounds like you have already done the basics, fuel, spark etc. Are you sure the injectors are actually spraying fuel?? Also have you check you actual fuel pressure?? If the car does in fact have the VATS, check the resistance in the key itself to be sure it is working proper, if your multimeter doesn't read anything, the key may be at fault... Also the cylinders themselves can go for a crap.... After all, if you did in fact replace everything mentioned, there is not to much left right?? If fuel pressure and the VATS seems good, you may have something even wrong with the ECM itself.

Cruzin Kaz

All the ones I have come across turn over normally, the just don't get spark or fuel pulse...

LD1985

Im so sure its something easy that will **** us off. I have the official 1991 gm book too. Thought it would be a better help than haynes or chilton's..No it's doesn't usually flood or smell like gas.....Also it would start better if I sprayed gas into the throttle body..but that was before i replaced the injectors....now that seems to have been fixed.

LD1985

top dead center and yes that brown wire on the pass side.

LD1985

The Vats system seems fine...i've dealt with it before...im as sure as i can be that they are spraying..how can i check? the get signal and the car runs a little sometimes.....Also tried 3 different junk yard ecm's trying all 4 proms....its possible they are all bad but unlikely

dodger65

just throwing this out there... did you verify the timing and #1 tdc very carefully, b/c if your balancer is anything like mine, there are 4 friggin slots on it, and i've found it's really easy to be one mark or 180 off and have it try to run... then check tdc for the 50th time and find out i was wrong last time...

also, you know that #1 is on the passenger side, right?

i'm not trying to imply that your mechanic skills aren't up to par, these are just things i wasn't aware of (and which bit me in the ***) when i started working on 60deg v6's...

Dale

iTrader: (12)

ok, I just pulled out the drop light and looked around.

1. dumb one. Make sure no wires got pinched under the hold-down for the distrib while replacing it. Dont ask

2. Ok, you mentioned knock/sensor starter area. One of the wires that connects to the starter, when it comes loose, the car dies. The whole car feeds power thru the starter, then to inside of the car. Somewhere along the way, the alt blends in. Also, 2 of them wires have fuseable links. May want to verify the wires to the starter arnt cracked, meleted, ends ok, and them fuseable links are working. I fixed this on the side of the interstate, so I didnt pay attention to wire colors, I just wanted it to run.

Anyway, I belive I have 4 wires at the starter.
Fat red (battery)
orange (fused, not sure what it goes to)
small red (fused, not sure what it goes to)
purple (keyed start)

If its not flooding out, it should be when it doesnt start. Sounds like the injectors are not opening to allow fuel in.

And yes, most people think left front is #1, its not, its right front. But if you have the helms book, and looked at it, you would realize this. But we all make mistakes.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

to verify injectors spray, its messy. Pull the top plenium up, pull rail up with lines still connected. Lay plenium off to side and hook all sensor up, then try and start the car. If it sprays a big mess, woot.

If no mess, ugh

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Mine wont even spin, dead duck. Happened more then once to me tell I ordered a new key.

LD1985

ok...when it doesn't try to start at all my dad say that it floods itself....I'll see about the starter....but i did the starter work after the car quit running...And yes...just to be super sure i took the chiltons out with me while i did the distributor...took the cap and everything apart and re assembled it......Cleaned off all the contacts with an eraser..even thought it was all new.....will try the injectors check...

When my ignition cylander went out in the 89' that is what happened....it was dead.....wouldn't turn or anything.....so im pretty sure its not the VATS.....That part was expensive too....$75 from gm dealer plus $25 a key

Dale

iTrader: (12)

if it floods itself, then injectors are firing, and not getting spark.

I belive 89 didnt have vats?? But anyway. You got a few things to go check on and then report back.


Cruzin Kaz, I looked at the wiring diagram. The starter should not spin when vats is "breached". I can scan the diagram and post if you would like.

Gumby

Its sort of pretty simple, if you have good spark and fuel, you got good fire.

If its not firing good, something is wrong with either the spark or fuel. Or the spark and fuel timing.

The engine has to run if everything is good and working right, but its not.

to much or to little of one or the other is the problem. I know you said you have checked everything but you may just want to walk away from it for a few days and forget. Then get a fresh appraoch.

---------------------------------------
does 89 have the cold start injector?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

89 would have a CSI, yes.

Gumby

Maybe the CSI is bad combined with weak spark.

It tries to start but quickly floods out.