catchmeifyoucan

yea you heard me right, i emailed a company called rms racing that deals with the 2.8/3.1/3.4 exclusively for aftermarket parts. anyway they are talking about doing a supercharger for our cars. they already make one for the auto tranny's but i would like to get them to make some for our manuals. anyone interested? if so email derek at derek@jrponline.com and tell him you are interested.
i think this might be a feasable thing concidering the fact that they already make kits for our engines in different platforms. if we are lucky they will cut the price down a lil for us, but i am not holding my breath on that one. anyway let's show them the support for the product to go into production, and let's get some more ponies for theese things.

no offense doward, i really don't like turbo characteristics in general for a car. the way i look at it is this "lag sucks".

V8 Slayer

What parts if any are available now for us by them?

kretos

i'd take a small amount of turbo lag over a constant parasitic pull from a supercharger, i find superchargers very impractical for a daily driven car, now for strictly track use i'd take a supercharger over a turbo any day.



and i'll wait to see what deans system looks like.

catchmeifyoucan

right now just a stage 1 supercharger kit for the 3.4's that i saw on their catalogue, alot of stuff for the celeb's and such fwd cars though.

catchmeifyoucan

here's their catalogue address www.jrponlone.com/downloads/catalogs/rms.pdf and their store address
www.rmsracing.com/newproducts.htm

i dunno if i'd agree but remember a supercharger is always there and depending on how it is "geared" i wouldn't call parasitic(ie 9#of boost is 9# of boost.
turbo's take a little longer to spool up than a supercharger. eithor way i don't wanna start arguing and get this thread locked like the r&d on trueleo intakes thread.

kretos

i'm not trying to argue, just expressing my opinion, i think its great there might be a company with a supercharger kit out for the 60* v6

i'd just rather use a turbo, unless this things dirt cheap then hell who knows

kretos

both sites arn't working for me, so do you know what an estimate on the charger would be?

catchmeifyoucan

try typing it in. yes the kits they build in house are kinda expensive when compared to doward's. they are in the range of 3500-4000. not chump change for sure. i understand, just didn't want to get misunderstood myself. remember what happened last time when i got misunderstood(almost 9 flat)?
personally i hope we can get them about 3,000 but we'll see if they go ahead and make them. i should know by tomm if they will even entertain the idea. if they do, i will deffinately need everyone's help to get them into production. i just emailed them today and already they got back to me(in less than 10 mins) i was really impressed.

kretos

well not to burst your bubble, but dowards kits were very well priced, and he only managed to sell 5 or 6 kits, and 4 i believe were locally. i for one would love to buy a power adder but for the kinda money its not in the cards for most people on the board right now.

so i wouldn't get your hopes up about getting alot of people from the forums buying these

Naft

if its easy to take on and off i'd buy one in like 2 years, no $ now.

KED85

$3500 is price for this item
If it's not smog legal nor "inexpensive" the purchasing option dwindles.
Sad, but true...
I'm still working on getting the 3.1 guys & guys with smog pumps, the street legal headers.....
And how many have stepped up for teh smog legal headers?
Myself I hope to finally afford the legal headers by summers end.
It stinks but money is a decidign factor for purchasing some dreams.
A Supercharger?
That's why the swap boogie is such a deal.
Ya get most of the power needed and it's smog legal, deal too.
What I am most curious about is what happened to the supercharger kit made by Paxton back in the late 80's specifically for the 3rd gen f body V6?

AM91Camaro_RS

never heard anything about paxton making a sc for us guys, anytime. got anymore info on that deal?

V8 Slayer

??

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I'd love to have one, been thinking it myself to replace ac pump.


However, money talks, and I have none of it.

KED85

Hot Rod did a story about Paxton back in the late 80's
Contact Paxton in Camarillo, CA (that is where I believe they relocated).
I have that article about them from that story.
I can't believe some never heard of Paxton.
I guess no on ever heard of Granatelli, either.
Or "STP" products....

2_point8_boy

You know that picture is of a 3.4L in a 4th gen, right? Just don't want anyone to see the picture and get confused.

KED85

That's very correct call on the 3.4 shown in the pic.

catchmeifyoucan

i know that not everyone can afford it right now, but i am just trying to get another option for power adders, and i know about doward's turbo setups, i have nothing against them other than i personally don't turbo's in general. that is all
paxton was and still is one of the biggest performance superchargers on the market, atleast last time i checked. theese are centrifugal, not roots type like used on the v-8's normally

BannedAid

It appears the newer Paxton NOVI series superchargers carry a C.A.R.B. legal statis with an E.O.# for GM Chev 2.8L passenger cars from 85-87 (Not trucks)

Info from ARB Calif aftermarket parts database under Paxton superchargers.

I have sent Paxton a detailed e-mail requesting any info on 60*V6 GM RWD passenger car applications.


E.O# 1100901 : 1985-1987 CHEVROLET 2.8 LITER PASSENGER CAR W/ SN 93, CRANK SHAFT SIZE 6.00, PULLY SIZE 4.00

E.O.# 1100901-3 : 1985-1987 CHEVROLET 2.8 LITER PASSENGER CAR W/ NOVI 2000, CRANK SHAFT SIZE 6.00, PULLY SIZE 3.00

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

KED u are working on getting the 3.1 air headers available? If so thanks alot caz i really want headers for my 3.1 but i cant get them until the smog legal ones come out.

KED85

Say Hello to Mr. Fred Gerle at
fgerle@pacesetterexhaust.com
Inform him of your desire to buy their product.
Tell Mr. Gerle I said hello & to keep cool
YOUR HELP will get them produced!

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

I emailed him like a month ago, i hope he makes these things.

2_point8_boy

Thoses aren't California issued E.O. Numbers.

All E.O. #'s for California are in the format of "D-###-##"

I don't know what those are, but it's not for CA. Maybe part numbers?

2_point8_boy

Ok, so those are part numbers from Paxton. The E.O. # is D-195-13 and is legal for

"1985-1987 CHEVROLET 2.8 LITER PASSENGER CAR"

This is a loop-hole kind of thing. Technically, they are talking about FWD vehicles specifically. You can tell by downloading and reading the PDF File that the state provides. They start getting into 1988 3.1L cars, which is when the 3.1L made it's debut in FWD applications.

BUT, since that is not specified ANYWHERE in the E.O. paperwork, anyone with a 2.8L in a Firebird or Camaro has this kit available to them for LEGAL use in California so long as you hook everything up that should be hooked up and you fabricate the mounting brackets. The only bummer is that I'm sure it's designed for MAP systems, not MAF systems like ours.

Here's the website for the CA State listing of E.O. Numbers:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...es/amquery.php

Ypou can type in the E.O. Number above to get more info on this Order Number.

Hope this helps soome of you guys out...it leaves me with nothing to hope for though...lol

Jeff

2_point8_boy

Get a smaller turbo! Solves the lag problem.

KED85

The article I mentioned has, as a car in a tech picture, a V6 60* subject! And it specifically says V6 F Body rides for the (I think this article was written in) 1989 model year.
To me the 85-87 MPFI set up is identical F Body & "Passenger car". Doesn't the next Gen 2 version come about then (1987 or 1988) with the different heads & other "stuff"?
I'd love to hear a response back.
I used to live down street from Paxton in Santa Monica CA location.

2_point8_boy

All you have to worry about is if they are MAP or MAF. I'm not 100% sure and I can't find the info in any of the books I have here at work right now. The problem comes when you have to change the PROM because you need to change the Fuel mixtures and spark tables.

If they '85 FWD motors were MAF, then you should buy one and bolt one onto your Firebird Carl, I'll be more than happy to help with the install...

wildponies3

anyone got a link to where i can find one of dem things?

HI KARL

FAST RS

When i was at paxton a few years back i asked about a supercharger for my car they said they would have to fab up brackets etc and said it would run me about 5k this was back in 99. However i have seen paxton supercharges break very quick the bearings awalys seem to go bad.

KED85

For my usage,
I'd install it on another ride.
The cost effective ratio is way to high for the Firebird.

2_point8_boy

Whatever Karl...you just don't know how to live...lol

I think YOu should buy ME one then. i'll let ou drive it, don't worry...lol ;-)

KED85

Oh you are so funny!!!
No serious,
I just spent large chunks of change for other improvements that will return a great yield.
It's hard to justify spending $3500 range on a power adder for an old car.
When I can buy a car (an old Vega for myself) add the power adders (engine, tranny, rear axle) and still have change to fill the tank!
$3500 is a large chunk of change for me to drop for a power adder.
I mean a bottle & set up for a nitrous system would be so less costly.
I spent $3800 buying my 1967 RS/SS Camaro Convertible 4-speed. Yes back in 1983, but still look what I got for that much money......
I'll take the Pace Setter Exhaust headers I got us street legalized anyday.....and very, very, soon, too! The cost gain ratio is much a smaller affordable step with very good results for spent change.
PS What is really a hard cost to swallow....
Cost of a womans diamond ring.....I mean ya wanna hold $3500 in your hand, that's one way to do it!

TheV6jerk

The Paxton SN93 superchargers were notorious for the bearings burning up and seizing. They were a self contained lubrication system supercharger that needed checking and servicing of the fluild level constantly.

The newer NOVI series is a built proof design and has a far superior track record in reliability. It is a trouble free unit unlike the SN93's

I am checking on more info on this EO loophole right now from Paxton to see its viability for Calif use on my car. I am waiting for a response on if and how THEY think I can hook it in and be legal under their EO # guidelines.

2_point8_boy

Be careful with asking the manufacturer, it's 100% your responsibility to make sure that it's legal. If the manufacturer says it's ok, but someone finds out it's not when you get it smogged, it's all on you.

now, I'm not saying that Paxton is one of those companies, but there are some out there that will just tell you anything you want to hear just to get the cash out of you, then when you have it all installed and get busted for it, they say too bad, so sad.

Trust me on this one "Jerk", now I say that in the most delicate way I can(notice quotes...lol, j/k), the way it's written, it's completly legal for you to install that on your ride. The loophole comes when there is nothing saying that it CAN'T be done.

The way that E.O. paperwork is written up, you can install it on any 2.8L equipped passenger car and the state of CA is fine with it. The inherent problem is that the way it was originally designed is for FWD cars, but there's nothing inthere limiting it to that. So, if you can make it work, it's all yours.

TheV6jerk

You got the humor in me using that name Figured this time scew it, let everyone call me a Jerk and just get it out there from the get go.

You say "inherent problem" and I know you mean is speculatory that initially it was writing for a FWD application but is a general listing for all 85-87 passenger Chevrolet cars, but what else was a 2.8L engine in 85-87? (2.8L meaning even something that was 4 cylinders) Other than "trucks, I don't think there was any other 2.8L passenger cars than the Camaro.

*edit* Ok the only two I can find is-
1985-89 Celebrity 2.8L
1985-88 Camaro 2.8L

Now why would the EO# be good only for '85-'87 if it were for the Celebrity if the 2.8 was in it in '88-89 also. Because the next EO# is listed for whatever car jumping to a 3.1 in 88-90, and a 3.4L application in '91-95 ALL FROM CHEVROLET. There is no chev listings consecutive with those year ranges and motors in FWD or RWD. They have Pontiacs and Caddy's listed separate

KED85

From what I can toss out it may be this "detail".
PERHAPS the building of the bracketry for a FWD application was "Easier to cobble up-pull from current production" to make it IN TIME for "testing certification process" AND PERHAPS a FWD 2.8 car "was on hand" to "send" for certification.
I KNOW ONE OTHER DETAIL IN RESPONSE TO A "RESPONSE from a 3rd Gen-er"...
When the headers were certified... I heard back that the "CARB listing said" CAMARO,
INSTEAD OF
F Body Camaro Firebird application.
I asked Mr. Gerle of Pacesetter Exhaust to petition for an addition to the listing. I understand the CARB application listing should now read 1985-1989 Camaro Firebird 2.8 V6 Automatic for our street legal headers from Pace Setter Exhaust.
Meaning I didn't want to buy the product, go for smog testing only to find that "since I installed the headers on a Firebird, instead of a Camaro, that I would fail visual part of test....."
I don't doubt THAT our "concerns" (Hey we want to give you money, include our listings please!) certainly COULD be addressed IF the money FOR A PAXTON PRODUCT comes forward FROM A PAYING CUSTOMER!
Hey write a letter to Mr. Granetelli, that should get some response!
How ya think I got us street legal headers?!?!?!
Pace Setter Exhaust had in their product line street legal product for 93-95 F Body 3.4. I asked IF they would consider broading their product selling base by modifying a current product in their existing line for our cars...

Lo & behold........

PS I also asked Vic Edelbrock the same question (modify a header product you already make for 60* V6 for our 3rd Gen cars). From him, I never got a response. I even mentioned our quest for street legal headers to his daughter, Cammee Edelbrock when I met her... she just passed over the request, too.
But this instance, since Paxton once promoted their Supercharger kit product for our V6 3rd gen rides in a Hot Rod article, just maybe........

TheV6jerk

Karl, Can you document that particlular article in Hot Rod Magazine with a month and year so I can reference it?

Dean

2_point8_boy

No, what I mean by "inherant problem", is that I think the system comes with a new PROM and I can't remember if the FWD 2.8L were MAP or MAF systems in those years.

Cars that had the 2.8L available were Cavalier, Celeberty, Camaro, Fiero, Corsica and their cross-brand counterparts.

I might be off a year or 2 on a couple of models, but that's all around that time.

wildponies3

dean i am glad you are back, and truely i kinda like the new s/n. i am still laughing about the irony in it. well anyway good having you back,

Shaun

KED85

Without offending anyone by going thru the old magazine pile.......hope ya choke on the dust....
Happy to assist & damned if I didn't find it.
It's a reprint handed out in sales literature given to me by Paxton.
Found in Hot Rod Magazine
July 1988 issue....
Hell I'll just retype the whole damn article
Mad at Wife so this is time well spent, right!!!!!


While superchargers come in a number of styles-Roots, Axial flow, Vane, & centrifugal-the centrifugal is generally considered to be one of the most efficent. By doubling the rpm of a centrifugal supercharger, the boost or volumne of air passed is multiplied by the square. Centrifugals have been used on everything from P-51 Mustangs & virtually every ultra high boost application you can think of. That's why the basic element in every Paxton Supercharger kit, including the new 1988 IROZ-Z offering is based on Paxton's tried & true, belt driven centrifugal supercharger. Over the years, Paxton pressurizers have factory boosted the likes of '57 T-Birds and Studebaker Avantis (Me-to name a few more, try 1964-1968 Cobras (Bill Cosby had one of these) & also the 1957 Ford series cars) not to mention a "car-a-copia" of aftermarket appllications. So to keep current, Paxton has been researching & developing an easy to install blower kit designed to fit under the cramped confines of a Camaros hood & blend with GM various Tuned Prot Injection systems.
As a point of reference, we decided to compare normally aspirated (unblown) IROC Camaro times to those of the Paxton-puffed test vehicle. So we started by rod testing a stock TPI equipped 87 350 GTA at Los Angeles County Raceway (LACR). The best altitude corrected 1/4 Mi. (LACR is 2960 feet above sea level) were corrected 15.0 @ 91 MPH. You can imagine our surprise when Joe Granetelli Jr.-a part of the clan Granetelli, the long time owners of Paxton Products-promptly recorded an out of the box corrected 133.67 et & 102 MPH in his 1988 Pontiac (so ya know I only "see" a 1988 Firebird engine pic, with no engine size stated & it is a TPI ride, tho).
The only change was that Granetelli's Trans Am had been fitted with one of Paxton's prototype "kompressor" kits: & yet the superconservative, grovery getting/freeway flogger, with a newfound five or six pounds of boost under its white hood, had picked up 2.3 seconds & 11 MPH in the quater while dropping its 0-60 time to just 4.7 seconds.
As we all know, speed & power cost money. "So" as they say, "How fast and/or quick do you want your F-Body to go?" If it's mid-to low 13 s at 102 MPH, it's gonna cost you the price of Paxton's kit plus the five or so hours it takes to bolt one on. If you've the bread but hands of butter, fear not. Paxton's super-detailed, full-on, step-by-step installation manual will make that five-hours job the easiet bolt on of all time, or thier name isn't Granetelli,or something like that.
Article written by Gray Baskerville (Thanks Dad!).
PHOTO CAPTION TIME!
---The kit for the V6 engine is both less expensive & less labor intensive (4 1/2 hr. installation time) than for the V8s. Rear wheel power increase of 45 pecent remains the same.
Yes also shown/supplied is a Camaro V6 engine bay with a supercharger by Paxton "there".
---Paxton's new F Body puffer package was also tested on both a '88 350 TPI IROC Camaro & a '88 RS V6 Camaro with similar results. The IROC cranked out a 13.94/99.69 best time from a 14.90/90 mph, while the V6 Camaro ran a number of high 16 MPH passes from its 19 second baseline.
Me
The pic of SC on the V6 engine...
Picture your car alternator, being replaced by the SC assembly.
'Nuff said!
Hope this helps the cause!

Naft

karl you are a magical mystical holder of otherwise undiscovered knowledge.

Doward

WTF. I ran 16s WITHOUT a power adder. Of course, these could be uncorrected times?

If so, would somebody like to compute the corrected times, at sea level?

KED85

I knew that one part would get some people, the 1/4 times for the 6 or the V8!
I only retyped what was once published....I didn't do the driving.
PS HOW MANY HIILLS CAN BE IN FLORIDA TO NEED SEA LEVEL CORRECTIONS?????
AIN'T ALL FLORIDA AT SEA LEVEL????????
Besides Just kidding....LOL!!!!
Glad to pass along the knowledge....

Dale

iTrader: (12)

karl, mind telling me page number, I got an orginal print of july 88 hotrod in my hands

TheV6jerk

Yes Karl, I need to verify this also because I have been searching now for the past few hours to purchase a back issue of that July 1988 Hot Rod magazine. I need to find as much info on this as possible and don't want to be wasting my money buying something thats not correct.

If someone could scan the article for myself (and the benefit others here for future reference) that would be great also like I did for the discontinued GM power manual. We could have one of the moderators archive it on the same post for tech article info.

KED85

I'll fax ya what I got
Email me fax numbers so I can assist.
Would you believe the reprint article has the page number removed before printing
BUT does say July 1988 on page bottom so it's apparently the legit time frame of original printing.
Where did you get a hold of the July 1988 Hot Rod so quickly?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I'll scan it, no problem. Would like to know the page number(s) so I dont have to read everything.


I have almost every issued of hotrod from late 87 to um.. not sure when in the bottom of my closet

KED85

Ever use Table of Contents?
Find the July 1988 issue and find it right there.
I can't help it if the reprint was done without Hot Rod page numbers.
That's a very valuble collection in the closet.
I'd read every issue if I was you.
Learn lots that way. Enjoyably, too.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Table of Contents, whats that? j/k, I did QUICKLY glance over, and saw nothing obvious about s/c.


I looked much harder and found Uploading as I type.


YA'LL NEED TO BE NICE TO MY HOSTING!!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

WARNING, 56K KILLER!!


300dpi, 2590KB
http://www.daleimages.net/images/page74.jpg

300dpi, 2919KB
http://www.daleimages.net/images/page75.jpg

600dpi, 2199KB
http://www.daleimages.net/images/v6engine.jpg