LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

You can always beuild your own...there are plenty of 3800Scs and a few 4.3s on Pennocks.

firebird45331

I don't have it anymore

~87Bird~2.8~

is a 3.8 the same block as a 4.3???

if not...how come ppl dont swap 3.8's

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

No, a 3.8 is a Buick motor (well, they used them in near everything, but they originated at Buick), in the same family as the less popular 4.1. The 4.3 is based on the small block Chevy, but is a V6, and shares many components with the V8.
The newer (post-88) 3.8s were designated 3800 by GM, with a few upgrades, and have had a few different versions since. The only "3.8" worth swapping is the GN/Turbo TA engine, and they're not too common. The newer 3800s, esp the supercharged versions, are much better.
The 383 I'm putting in mine, better still!

firebird45331

then Gen II and Gen III 3800's would do just fine.

Azrael91966669

all the supercharged 3800s are FWD engines and will not fit an fbody and the 3800s found in the 4th gen fbodys are a pain to swap to a 3rdgen about as hard as an ls1 swap
yes they fit but for all the effort needed its not worth it
a v8 swap would be far cheaper and easier
and you get more hp off the bat

firebird45331

sorry, thought we were still talking about p bodies

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

I was. The 3800 swaps on fiero's aren't near as tough as they used to be, lots of people have done them and documented all the issues that come up.

87blueracr

thread JACKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

redraif

Well to help wind this thread back to the dyno subject...

Been researching what Dyno numbers some of the fiero 3.4s are dishing out to compare to mine... all N/A cars...

A guy named Raydar on the Fiero boards got his 3.4 automatic to pull
115.47HP (4250RPM) & 158.51TQ (3100-3250)
Then he added a truleo intake and a few other goodies and got...
134.41HP (4600) & 172.74 TQ (3500)

Another named LouDias with a 3.4 stick back in 2000 got with a crane cam with .423/.423
146.3HP (4100) & 201.6TQ (24-3500)
Then added a cam with .427/.452
149.8HP & 199.6 TQ

Another guy Avengador1 with a 3.4 stick got
130.7HP (4200-4400) & 179.6 (22-3500)

So far I have got them all beat in TQ, but my HP is still down! Though my HP peaks at alot high RPM then them!

redraif

So I never posted what my exhaust results were here...most already know, but since I just posted the other 3.4 numbers...

2005: 3.4 with custom 2.5 inch (primaries) mandrel bent y-pipe to a single 3inch pipe with 3in Flowtech cut out to 3in Magnaflow convertor to Flowmaster's American Thunder mandrel bent exhaust system

Max Power = 141.3 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 169.56hp @ the fly wheel
Max Torque = 221.3 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 265.56ft-lbs @ the fly wheel

This puts me at 9hp over stock 3.4 numbers...
(Granted the 2.8 plenum probably is more restrictive then the 3.4's & my heads are 160,000 miles w/o a valve job!)
My torque is 65.56 over stock 3.4 numbers!



Some comparisons I have drawn about the exhaust upgrade. Again alot of you have already seen this... sorry for the repeat!

My gains with the 3inch exhaust over the 2.25...

Horsepower gains...15.4HP
Torque gains...18.2ft/lbs
Opening the cut out changed nothing, so this tells me the new exhaust is evenly matched with the MOTOR AND MODS I HAVE!

Further comparisons... what a 2.5 would do compared to the 3inch...
On the old exhaust system... Well I have PF&E headers and their mandrel bent y-pipe was 2.5 atits exit (2in primaries into 2.5in)...it flowed to a 2.5 inch pipe then to a 2.5 inch cut out. So it was effectively a 2.5 inch system to the open cut out. I opened the cut out on a run listed above... This was the closest I have to a pull with my car running a 2.5 inch system...

134HP and 207 TQ At the wheels... so if I had only gone to a 2.5 inch system and it was as effective as the cut out, I would have flowed just that on a 2.5 inch system!

So my dyno difference from a 2.25 crimp bent sys to a 2.5 decent system...
9hp gained
4ft/lbs tq gained!

So my dyno differences from a 2.5 inch system to a 3in mandrel bent sys with custom 2.5 inch primaries to a 3in (y-pipe)
7hp gained
14ft/lbs TQ gained!

87blueracr

dale ran some numbers through the computer on the engine i am building and he came up with something like 283hp at around 6,500 and 262ft lbs at 5,000. the only thing that differs is the compression on what i am planning(11:1) and what he ran(12:1)
the program would only let him go to 10* advanced on the timing and stock i run 15*. so i think that those numbers will be a little higher when it is actually in the car and built. the only thing that is holding me back right now is the $ should have been here by now(i sold 6 more years to the navy)

i think that 300 is now possible with the right combination. i personally can't wait to see what doward's new engine pulls on the dyno(300+?)

redraif

So what all are you planing? I'm definately not going with that high of compression...with turbo plans and all!

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Initial timing isn't as important as overall timing (and the speed of the curve itself, which I understand is somewhat limited with the stock ECM), so that shouldn't make much difference. I would have to say though that unless you know about some cylinder heads the rest of us don't, and have a cam (preferably a solid roller) that can take full advantage of them, I don't see how you will be able to get anywhere near numbers like that NA, regardless of the compression ratio. No flame intended, its just that the numbers you mentioned are considerably higher than anyone else has ever done, and I don't see how you could get there with the parts available.

Edit: Nevermind, you're talking about flywheel #s, not rear wheel HP. Hopefully those #s are attainable, but its still going to be a stretch I think.

Azrael91966669

redraif my stock exhaust is 2 1/2 in not a 2 1/4
mine currently has a pretty crappy muffler . The Y pipe is 2 1/2 the cat is 2 1/2 in and out and the I pipe is 2 1/2 but my muffler is 2 1/2 in and 2 1/4 out . So im not seeing why you even gave specs for 2 1/4 inch

The reason i keep asking why are we talking so much about Fieros is they use a fwd engine mounted in the rear of the car . From what i know i cant use fwd heads or plenum . So whats the point in talking about them here they wont fit our blocks.

To me a new upper and lower plenum for $800 with a new throttle body
just to add a few horse power dosnt seem worth the trouble
there truely isnt many options for these v6's unless you want to shell out far more money then its worth

the turbo systems cost more then the cars are worth
and all they do is put the cars in tpi territory
to spend that much i could just buy a tpi car
my iroc cost me 4900 with 13,000 miles

when i started this thread i asked about makeing a few extra hp
i was hopeing for a cheaper way of doing it
my car as is with its half rotted floorboard
rear 1/4 damage isnt worth putting alot of money into

and isnt that the reason most all of use are v6 cars
because of the lack of extra money for gas/inshurance

some reason i almost find this v6 hopeless for makeing much more power unless you fell like dropping more then a cars worth.

at this point im all i can do is hope to make the car sound better
so i was giveing a 3" flowmaster muffler for free

because looking at everyones specs i dont see much hope on finding extra hp cheaply

i cant get headers i cant remove my cat
i cant remove my smog pump
the most i can do is pull out the AC system to free up 40 lbs
maybe some of you see it differantly but to me money talks. Sometimes i think about how much money i have already put into my car and still think oh how much more money i need to put in it .

i paid 1200 for the car in pretty crappy shape
then paid 600 for timeing chain and full new ignition system whole thing looked ratty

hours of cleaning and detailing it

an iroc hood for 10 dollars 40 for louvers plus 40 in gas to pick it up

40 for 1LE swaybars
40Ws6 springs
20 for all new front brake componets

200 total on Z28 wheels and tires

a 20 dollar iroc spoiler with 3rd brake light

as you can tell i try not to spend alot of money on parts
as i dont have that much money to begin with

so when i hear about a new plenum thats gonna run me almost what i paid for my car to begine with i wonder is it worth it

sorry for the long post but everyone keeps talking about

makeing about 20- 30 more hp then i am stock
and how many mods they did to get that it just makes me wonder if i am better of swaping to a V8 or just leaving be and driveing it till it dies

Azrael91966669

i differant example
for a is it worth it

i could have got a brand new fiberglass iroc hood for 600
or just get a used stock steel one for total of 90
i figured loseing 50 lbs isnt worth the 510 dollors
besides id have to drive the same distance to pay the 600 dollars

same gose for fiberglass fenders they run about 250 each

brand new aftermarket steel ones run for 30 each
are they worth the extra money to save maybe a lb or 2

and then the guy that was selling the fiberglass parts screamed about how everybody wanted one
but no one really buys one

the reason i bring this up is i had the idea to just lighten the car even more and that would make me faster
but its just not worth the cost

but at the same time looking at how much just a plenum cost for these v6 maybe loseing that extra 50 lbs would make a differance and faster then a car that added 20 hp

has anyone else looked into weight saveings to be faster
instead of hp?
i had my car weighed 2956 with me in it
at a truck scale lol
yes my car is a stripper model only 2 options are AC and auto
rear defrost deleat sucks in winter
i have power nothing

removeing the 50 lbs of
Ac crap would bring me down to 2900 lbs and i still have my full interior lol
im also thinking about alloy driveshaft
swaping to G92 rearend for posi and disk
still thinking about fiberglass parts cost scares me a bit

some underdrive pullys
installing my flowmaster lol
someday a cam/lifters or a 3.4 swap seems like you almost have to pull the the engine to do it so mine as well just put a 3.4 in
other then all that theres not much more i can do with my current budget

really all i wanted out of this car was something that looks badass sounds nice when driveing and handel good
and being able to stomp a few ricers that pull up next to me revving the **** out of there car

sofar all ive got is good handeling
and i have to be picky about raceing lol at lest i stomp crx's and 4banger mustangs lol
he looks ok but that is still a work in progress
but every time i look at him i find more rust
and that kills me the floor panel is about the worst spot on him hole about the size of a CD right where my foot gose and that whole front drivers side area is badly rusted
i just hope he lasts till i can find another v6 or even a roller
sorry for the rants was in a mood tonight

87blueracr

lt1, i am planning on running a solid roller lifter with that cam, and roller rockers, super six motorsports has the best specs on a set of heads for the 3.4's, though they are not cheap at almost 1,000 the lift on the cam i am using is around 500 intake and 520 exhaust. the cam is made by crane, and itself is 200 with everything else needed to actually run the cam correctly, the set is about 800$ i realize those numbers are considerably higher than anyone with a N/A motor have ever run, and trust me when i say that it really dives into your pocket, but my dad always told me while i was a kid "don't just do something boy, do it all out"


i realize that not everyone is or can afford what i am doing to mine, but there are some real cheap upgrades that can net some good horsepower for the money. for instance get a better ignition system. pacesetter headers are only 200$ i haven't seen em but i am sure that you can bolt them to the stock system with a little system modding. i don't see why someone would do this on theese cars, but til you get the money for the rest of the system, it works. get a performance chip. jet makes them around 100$ replace that old worn out clutch(100$ from autozone) so you can get more power to the wheels. etc.....

Azrael91966669

they dont make the headers for the 3.1 there not smog legal
or something

auto no clutch
did replace the ignition system all of it
also has a roller timeing chain
all new plugs wires
pickup coil
ignition modual
cap
rotor
full distrubritor

after looking around i am makeing the power i should be makeing
it just seems so low

87blueracr

2.8,3.1,3.4 all the same intake and exhaustt and heads. they are interchangeable. you can take the 2.8 headers and put them on your 3.1. and if you really have to deal with smog control, transfer the 2.8 plenum and put it on there too so you can attach the smog control devices from the 2.8's on there. a 3.1 is nothing more than a 2.8 that has been stroked.

Azrael91966669

2.8s where mass air flow
3.1s are speed density
there are more differances then just bore and stroke
my girl friends firebird has the Ecm from a 2.8 in her 3.1 and the SES light is on almost all the time

AM91Camaro_RS

fierros use the exact same motors we do except the starter is on the other side. they run the same iron heads we do and teh same intake manifolds...other than the curved neck that they have going to the TB. fierros did not get aluminum heads. those were only on FWD vehicles.

making HP costs money, its never cheap.

the pacesetters are not smog legal for 3.1s. that is what he's trying to say, 87blueracr. yes, they will bolt up but they are only smog legal on the 2.8s.

you are right, azrael, 2.8 cars are MAF based and 3.1 cars are SD. however, the motors are interchangable...you just keep your current computer, sensors, all of that. internally, the only differences are bore and stroke.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

If your goal starting out is to make over 150hp or so, and you're on a budget, the best thing to do is sell your car and buy one with a V8. Its possible to get over 200 flywheel HP NA, and over 300 with a power adder, with a 60 degree V6 but with that you are talking some money. With the recent interest in these engines and the knowldege of people that came before you, you can probably do it a lot cheaper than we did, because there is less guesswork involved.
Some of the people here might have gotten a V6 for cost reasons, but cheap V8 thirdgens are out there. Most are in V6 cars because of fuel economy, insurance reasons, parents that didn't want them to have a V8, better handling, etc. I can't imagine anyone not being able to afford a V8 thirdgen now, since I see decent examples on a near daily basis selling for little over $1000. That being said, if you are truly on a tight budget, and want over 275hp , buy a 4th gen.
For those on the board that have a V6 thirdgen (I can't include myself in this, though I have done plenty of wrenchwork on Redraif's V6), most have a pretty good reason for it, and don't plan to change to a V8. For those people, new performance parts are welcome, but the fact that they are lower production items means the cost is going to be higher than more popular V8 parts. Thats just a fact of life. Even for popular V8s, performance parts aren't cheap.

87blueracr

AM91 i realize what he is trying to say, and you know as well as i do that unless you actually look at the serial numbers, you can't tell the difference,
duh i am a dumbass, i was thinking about something that was not really possible for him due to the fact that he has the speed density. i forgot about that part while i was typing that. call it a brain fart if you will

Dale

iTrader: (12)

so is general rule of thumb, 15% loss on manual, and 20% auto?

If so, then my car should put 155hp/175tq to the wheel? Hum, I do belive this program is a tad high. But I do feel I gained more then 10hp/15tq on my transmission swap, and thats still with wrong gears.


LT1, the numbers given to 87blue are at the flywheel with a bore n stroked engine of almost 3.3l, 12:1 comp, supersix head flow, 68mm tb, small tube headers with dump, and mechanical cam with more lift then shannons, all at 15deg of timing.

What it doesnt take into affect I personal feel is intake flow. Which we all know these engines intakes suck (or lack of suck ).

redraif

I gave specs on the 2.25 because that is what my car had. The original stock exhaust behind the cat rusted out and it was replaced with the same size pipe it came with by a muffler shop. My car had 2.25! Not sure why yours is 2.5, maybe a 3.1 thing! I had posted my other dyno numbers and wanted to post the current ones and what we found as well. Helps everyone with the learning curve...thats why I posted it!

You also stated that you can't see sinking in the $ to get the performance gain. Well v-8, v-6, or 4cylinder... performace costs $, period. I think Joe is right in saying if you want something that will run with more gusto, you should sell the v-6 car and get a v-8 car. Most cost effective way to go!

redraif

Yep...

Quote:

What it doesnt take into affect I personal feel is intake flow. Which we all know these engines intakes suck (or lack of suck ).

Well hopefully we can fix that!

87blueracr

yea i believe that with theese new intakes thanks to troy and the guys, we can allow theese engines to breathe. and yea if you are looking for more "Ba11s" sell the v-6 and get a v-8. those of us who are doing the performance stuff to our cars do it cause we love the thought of a small 6 whooping up on the larger 8's and we fell in love with theese engines to some degree.

redraif

87blueracr

i know that i fell in love with them too. and besides it is nice to whoop up on the v-8's once in a while and yet whoop up on the neon srt-4's too.

Azrael91966669

as for being able to afford a v8 third gen ya you can pic up older v8 thirdgens with 15x,000 miles around here for around 1000
but to get one that is in any decent shape still cost 3000 and up

to many people think these cars are worth more then what even bluebook says
hell a coworker of mine has an 88 iroc 350
that has 100k miles looks mint and he swears its worth 10grand kbb says its worth 1500
my car according to blue book is worth the same as his and his looks like a show room car

yes i can afford to drive one gas wise but the inshurance is what kills
i pay 120 a month full coverage now but with a v8 my i would be paying 240 a month for liability that is a very large differance

and i have no tickets

now do you think that is worth haveing a v8 ?
i dont that is why i have a v6

and for finding a 4th gen you start at 2500 and thats with 150k v6 cars that have been beat
when me and my girlfreind went car hunting our limit was 1000 and after looking a lot of pos
i found this camaro for 1500 and i talked her down
yes it was beatup but it had 93k miles
and she swore up and down that it was well took care of

needless to say it wasnt
yes its been a moneypit
maybe not a moneypit like most people think
but i put money into him every week
but i still love it for one reason its my camaro
i had lots of plans for him untill i got him on the lift and noticed the floor pan rust
but every thing ive put on i can take back off later
most things where looks upgrades
because thats what i can get deals on

the other point is i already race and win against tbi formulas and rs's
tpi cars rip me to shreds
i also beat 3.4 4th gens

i love it when im asked what you have in that
and i tell them a 6
really what i was hopeing for was options for upgrades that are both smog legal and also worth the cost

i just didnt think the parts would cost as much as they do
i can walk into summit and add 40 hp to a v8 with only 200 bucks
i didnt think it was going to cost me more in the end to make a few extra hp with a 6

AM91Camaro_RS

if i remember correctly...3.1s had 2.25", also.

AM91Camaro_RS

whoopin up on the srt-4s might be a bit of a stretch! i haven't beat one of them yet...

Azrael91966669

the stock system was the same as the v8 2 1/2 inch
its just not a very free flowing system
currently my I pipe and my girl friends firebirds are still from factory and there 2 1/2 inch
as is the Y pipe comeing from the manifolds

http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op...rtid=17&page=1

also go there and see what it says about the feiro engine
it is classed the Front wheel drive section
because it a transversmounted
it would sorta be like putting a dual overhead cam 3.4 from a lZ-34 into a fbody it wouldnt work
the blocks are truely differant its more then just oil filter placement
but yes the internals are the same

87blueracr

hey, AM91 I DID did it about a month and a half ago in jax beach. he thought he had me, and he hit his governer!!!! i went flying past him, and never looked back.

Doward

Speak for yourself

Taken out two here in Ocala.

87blueracr

that is what i am talking about doward, whoop up on those little wanna be **** eaters.

AM91Camaro_RS

lol...doward, you have an excuse for beating them!

87blueracr

am91, you should have no excuse too, after all you are the fastest of all us N/A cars for right now! a manual tranny helps too though

redraif

How did you come about this measurement? But it has been clearly stated on most boards that the 2.25 used for 2.8s & 3.1s... the 3.4s in 4th gens got 2.5 (I think, not clear info on this). Did alot of thread searching to get that info. I know my stock y pipe was 2.25 from factory as I compared it to the PF&E 2.5 inch end of my y-pipe! Guess I will take some loose2.5 pipe to the yard when I go plastic gas tank hunting. Hard being 98 and newer only! But if I find a 3.4 I can compare the pipes...

Quote:

http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op...rtid=17&page=1

also go there and see what it says about the feiro engine
it is classed the Front wheel drive section
because it a transversmounted
it would sorta be like putting a dual overhead cam 3.4 from a lZ-34 into a fbody it wouldnt work
the blocks are truely differant its more then just oil filter placement
but yes the internals are the same

Well soon to pull Joes 2.8 out of the fiero...will compare to my stock f-body one...

redraif

Heck I never even see them on the streets around here! Though they blend in to the rest of the blah no character new stuff on the roads today!

For right now! Nah... hopefully we willl see if the mods pay off soon!

87blueracr

shannon, i was merely issuing a challenge for someone to take that title from him, the more poeple build theese up, the cheaper the parts will be, and the better parts will be built and sold. basically the better for all of us. it was not like a put your money where your mouth is kind of challenge, just a friendly see who can get the most hp(N/A) out of theese engines. heck he will prolly be doing my head work(porting and polishing) in the next few months. he knows what i am planning, and i him.
heck if you got one that is fast too, then maybe we should all get together at the track and show theese poeple that drive v-8's what's up with the little 6's

redraif

I know I was ribbing back...watch you back HAHA! Saying I'm on the way up too (intake)wink, wink. Joining in the fun with you, you know!

AM91Camaro_RS

no excuses for me? man, those srt-4s run 13s stock, don't they?? i've never raced one on the street. i might pull it some there but at the track, they get me pretty quick. there is a guy in my neighborhood who has a friend at his house a lot who has a srt-4...might have to see if we can arrange a "meeting". i don't think its stock though.

87blueracr

supposedly run 13's i never seen one run any faster than 14s. remember that was from about 50. at 50 they loose alot of their quickness. they come off the line fast then loose it. when you both jump on it, get that engine running as high as you can without redlining, let it shift and do the same thing for every gear. when i peaked 4,000 in 4th, i passed him. i hit 5500, shifted and immediately gained 2 car lenghts on him. i literally kept the pedal on the floor. the only time i even though about letting off, was when i shifted, and then it was only back to about 1/2 throttle, and then back down to the floor she went. no double clutching, just straight power shifting with the clutch. it is bad for the clutch, but i am putting a new one in soon anyway.