camaro_junkie

Well, I had some starting problems last night which I might attribute to a bad fuel pump/relay. It's only 5 years old and only has about 40,000 km (25, 000 mi) on it. Unfortunately, whatever it is, it is intermittent which is the worst problem. Anyways, I believe the pump that I put in last time was Federal Mogul (or some branch of that company). Any recommendations on a brand if I have to do it again?

TomP

Well first put a fuel pump gauge on it; that'll tell you everything right away!

If it is the pump, that sucks... I've been there and done that already. DON'T get a Borg-Warner pump! My original GM pump died on July 3rd, 1997. I replaced it July 4th (not a great way to spend Independence Day) with a Borg Warner one from Pep Boys.

Then that BW one died after 4 years- on July 25, 2001. It was a "lifetime warranty" so I brought it back to Pep Boys and got it replaced with another Borg Warner pump. Now THIS one is shot; the anti-drain-back valve is busted. The system won't hold pressure.

When I do all the 1/4 panel work, I'm yanking that POS outta there and putting an a genuine GM/AC pump!! I almost screamed at the chick behind the counter at Pep Boys the second time (July 2001)- she said "Oh well it lasted 4 years, that's not bad." I sputtered for a bit, calmed down, and said "No, it sucks- the original lasted for 11 years."

Damned Borg Warner. Oh see https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=46132 for info on my last change-out.

Only two good things will be that I can finally use my special fuel pump retaining ring wrench (from OTC Tools), and I'm also going to put a V8 TPI pump in. Pep Boys is lucky that the tank has to come down anyway.

camaro_junkie

Well, my dad and I did the fuel pump in '99, so I know what I'm doing this time. Last time we bent the filler tube and it likes to shut the pump off at the gas station before the tank is full. Also, I might as well install my new rear springs/shocks and rear brake lines/hose while I'm there.

I do have a fuel pressure gauge and believe me, I will be testing the fuel system thoroughly before I drop the tank. It could just be the relay (although not with my luck). The car is running right now, but I don't want to take it anywhere and have it die on me.

V6sucker

thats why when you replace the pump you cut in that access door. After you do that, the pump change takes like 20 minutes. And most of that is due to fighting the carpet back...

I knew GM techs that did that when the pumps were replaced under warranty, or just replaced by the dealer. They all swore by it.

Mr_Metal

AMEN... can I get an AMEN ?? LOL
I hear that LOUD and plenty CLEAR V6sucker... I did mine in record time w/ an aftermarket inline MSD fuel pump which I mounted 6" in front of the inline fuel filter (mid door/halfway under the car/on frame rail).

And YES... if the '70 Camaro had the same issue/fuel tank... I'd treat it the same way... well, NOT REALLY... but the '70 has a 20 gallon fuel cell in the trunk.

Curiously enough, access panel was already CUT into the car(bought it that way to my suprise)... so, as Tom said... some in tank fuel pumps are just inferior products.

Work smarter, not harder all... and unless your car is a Lamborghini, I'd say cut the access panel ('adequate skills or not')[/rant]

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

If you use a good quality pump like an Ac Delco, you only have to replace it once...unless you constantly run out of gas. Its not that big a deal to replace the pump anyway.

GM techs may very well have done that, but they are also paid off of the book rate, not by the hour. Plenty of hack jobs are done in dealerships every day...please, unless you have the skills to do this mod correctly and cleanly, don't cut up the floor.

Mr_Metal

You make a good point, however I'd have to disagree to the 10th degree here...

What SKILLS are needed to drop the rear end and fuel tank out of a car?
It's the TIME issue that's the problem... and it's a slap in the face to experienced mechanics (like myself) to jump through HOOPS when a simple procedure like a fuel pump change has to be undertaken.

Yes, I'm at a point where "less time, less frustration, less busted knuckles, less BS" is my friend now.

You are MERELY cutting an 'access panel'... NOT as you said "doing a HACK job"... eh ?

I know where you're coming from, however it's a convenience thing at this point to me.

V6sucker

Running out of gas or not, like TomP said, he has replaced his at least 3 times. I do not care about the parts used, the fact remains it has had to be done 3 times. If you "go by the book" it is easily an ALL day job at the very least in your driveway, unless your like TomP and just have lots of pratice at it (just joking TomP)

To break loose the rear end, and lower the tank a few inches does not take THAT long. hour-2 tops. After that take a drill, 1/2" drill a hole. Take jig saw cut a 2X3" opening.
Raise the tank back up and look. See what you have to cut to get a good deal of room. The biggest one I have ever cut was a 6X9" panel. No bending, just straight up and down replacement.

I would much rather an inexperianced person go through the trouble of the above and only have to partially remove the tank then to have to fully remove it and do the job.
Above takes minimal tools/skills.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

It wouldn't have to be done three times with an OEM-quality part, again assuming no one runs out of gas frequently. I would have thought a Borg-Warner part would be ok, but I'm suspicious of about anything from Pep Boys. You don't have to completely remove the tank anyway, just drop it down enough to clear everything.

I wasn't implying that any real skill is needed to drop a fuel tank and swap the pump, nor that it's a fun job...just that in my opinion (and I may be alone here) its better to do the job the way its supposed to be done, using good quality parts, and not have to cut up the car. I can do the whole job in two- three hours, just taking my time (on jackstands)...less when I'm in a hurry. My first one (and I have never had to change a fuel pump in the same car twice) took longer, but I would guess that a novice would take longer to cut a hole in his floor, then fix the mess, than it would to do it "by the book". If you have a car that gets changed/upgraded a lot, or is raced, I can see doing it for the convenience factor, but I'd use or fabricate an access door that"looked" factory, like you see on a lot of the imports. Most of the time though, what you see is an ugly mess of twisted metal, sheetmetal screws, and silicone. I wonder too how many have accidentally cut into their tank, a line, the wiring, etc.

Personally, if I paid a dealer the ridiculous amount of money they would want to change a fuel pump, and they cut up my car to do it, they'd be hearing from my lawyer. I wouldn't buy a car that someone had done this to either, unless it was done neatly...it makes you wonder what "other" quick fixes were used in other areas. Sort of like old Mustangs with holes torched through the inner fenders for plug access, and Chevelles with holes cut through their pass side wheelwell to access the heater blower.

CaliCamaroRS

I have never cut a hole in someones car to replace a fuel pump. FYI, the book pays about 5.5 hours labor to replace an F-body fuel pump and I can usually do them in under 2 hours.

Oh yeah, an interesting yet useless fact. It only took GM 21 years to do it, but all 2002 F-bodies FINALLY got a rubber filler neck hose!! Something that should've been done in '82.

Duck

TomP -- would you happen to have the GM part numbers for the GM V6 pump and the V8 TPI pumps? Are they stamped on the pumps or color-coded in any way, just so someone would know if he got the wrong one at the parts counter?

TomP

LOL! And actually, it's the third pump, I'm counting the original- so I've only replaced it twice (so far). Of course the third time is coming up soon.

I think AC # for the V6 is EP240, V8 TPI is EP241- but someone double-check me on that? Er, wait, I double-checked myself- I've also found an EP242 number (searching thirdgen.org), which might be a V8 TPI pump.

And the same search turned up this post; interesting numbers at the bottom: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=46984

And here's a bit about the Walbro pump... but after all my hell (and the miles I like to put on), I'm going to have to stick w/AC Delco for my brand- https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=42726

Remember tho, Duck, if you change the pump, throw out the original pulsator (sits on top of fuel pump) and either replace it with high-pressure rubber hose and clamps, or a new pulsator. The pulsators can leak b/c they're not clamped, they're just o-rings- and when the o-rings get old, they crack & leak.

Haha here's a message from me back in 2002 when I was replacing my quarter panel "soon". I guess I think "soon" = 2 years! https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=127520 Talks about higher flow pumps with stock injectors.

BITCHIN'!!! I found it!!! The message with the V6 MPFI pump's flow numbers!! I thought it was too old & got deleted! Link is here: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...MPFI+flow+pump And for future reference , the numbers were:

V6: EP240=50psi, 16 gph flow.
V8: EP241=50psi, 24 gph flow.

The # for the EP241 matches the first link I posted, so hopefully that means the V6/EP240's number is accurate too.

Duck

Thanks TomP, I've added your valuable info to the +Gbytes of other valuable archive reference data for ThirdGens!

Of the three pumps, the most interesting one might be "LT1, EP-271 - 33 GPH @ 51 psi" if it's a bolt-in.

Are the various pumps color-coded or ID'd in some way, so old ones tossed into a bucket can be sorted?

TomP

I don't remember any special color on the pump (besides black plastic and gray metal), but hopefully there's some sort of number stamped onto them. (I never thought to look)

camaro_junkie

Thanks guys for all the tips. I haven't tried to start the car since Thursday, but hopefully Saturday I'll get to have a look at it. Like I said, I HATE INTERMITTENT PROBLEMS!