FbodTrek

OK, I ordered the Crower Baja Beast and a set of K-motion 700 valve springs. My question is if they will have any problems wil interference, coil bind... lift is .422 intake and .444 exhaust. 204*I and 214*E duration. This cam is just a tad bit bigger than the Crane 2030. I'm just making sure all will be well

vsixtoy

You'd be great with those springs no problem- just as long as they are properly installed to the standard install height of 1.700". Coil bind on thoise springs is 1.050" do you could even install them at a height of 1.600" and still work even with 1.6rockers with room to spare (not recommended though, that would bump your closed and open rate much higher- not needed and would hurt rpms). If you're not real familiar with adjusting installed height, it can be done through either machine work OR it could be done by simply using offset retainers and locks that set at a + or -.

1.6 rockers with that cam would give you .450i/.474e- still in great shape at 1.700" installed height.

FbodTrek

Installed height? I was told I could use them as a direct replacement (no machine work). Don't tell me I have to send these damn heads to a machine shop...I was hoping I wouldn't have to remove them.

vsixtoy

Stock 2.8 HO heads (1.72/1.42valves) have a spring install height of 1.614".
I don't have any info on the stock install height of the valvesprings in the 3.4RWD cast iron heads.

The transverse aluminium heads are 1.701" installed height.
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Edit: sorry forgot to add this

The springs you bought are a 1.265" dia which is stock dia, so you are OK there- spring pockets don't need to be any larger.

These springs can be installed at different heights without machining by using different retainers and locks to add or subtract install height. The only problem is we need to find out what the installed height of the stock 3.4 springs are so you know the current perameters you're working with, Then I can help you figure what retainers are needed (If any- stocks might work)

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Shim them. You don't have to install them at there installed hight. You can set them up so they use the max open pressure.
But, you better make sure you know what your doing.
You don't have to send your heads to a machine shop to get the installed hight raised, just get some +.050 valve locks you can get some forged steel ones from crane for $32 like I did.

FbodTrek

I just wanna know if they'll work without shimming them. I don't want to have to do anything out of the ordinary of changing the springs. Rockers will remain stock, and the lift isn't very much, would they work? (Thanks Guys, I've never done this before myself).

vsixtoy

I'll say agin that you'll need to find out your current 3.4heads stock spring install height- Without that, I would NOT listen to anyone advice!
And I will says again, the 2.8 heads installed height is 1.614"- BUT I DON'T KNOW THE 3.4 SPECS- Anyone?

If you just slap them in there and they are also the 1.614" then those springs will have a closed pressure of 152# - Thats way too high of seat pressure closed. To give you a comparison ex- they are suppose to be around 115# closed/ 130# is considered getting up there for a high compression, high rpm engine. Stock is 88# closed on 2.8 heads.

Try to find the 3.4 head specs.

Doward

2.8 MPFI, 3.1 and 3.4 heads are the same.

Word of advice - that cam is the EXACT SAME SPECS as the MTC-5 cam I have in my 3.1. 204/214, .422/.444" lift.

For the springs, I went with Melling's choice -

VS-380 springs, installed @ 1.72"

I ordered the springs, like $1.60/ea from Northern Auto Parts. I've spun the 3.1 to 6k easy, with no fear - but I KNOW the exhaust manifolds are holding it back!

FbodTrek

He's right, they're the same. I wsh I hadn't ordered them already, that's a heck of alot scheaper than I paid for the K-700s. How's that cam feeling for ya Doward? I'll be spraying this combo so I figured the exhaust duration/lift would be pretty effective. Thanks Vsixtoy, let me know how they will have to be shimmed or whatever...I'd appreciate it.

vsixtoy

Well this sucks- the old link I had in the "read me first" to Cranecams is dead. They now have a new webpage and no longer link the 60*V6 specific valetrain parts and combinations. They had very discriptive info on retainer height comparisons, locks, etc. The parts are still listed, but now extremely vage info and no comparison crossreference charts anymore.

I can't remember which of the retainers we have stock, I think its the 99914 but not certain! I hate to tell you but you'll have to call Crane directly for the info. Like oilpan suggested above- you can go with +.050 locks to set the springs at 1.664" installed height without machine work. That will set your closed pressure @ 130# exactly which is acceptable and will be reliable. The only minor downside to this is slightly higer tension on the valvetrain is not needed for your lift and rpm range and will rob a slight amount of power than if set at the recommended 115#, but again it won't hurt anything reliabilty wise. Look at the bright side, you'll be setup to overrev to 7000 and not float a valve, or you are also setup for future 1.6 rockers with than cam and spring combo at that installed height.

Now if either Oilpan can be helpful with a part# for the +.050 locks from Crane, or you have to call there tech line for help. It can also be done with retainer, or locks, or both- they may be able to help you with a combination of both to get it closer to the desired 1.700" installed height.

Agsain, I wish they didn't change there website, this sucks.

FbodTrek

Well I GREATLY appreciate it Vsixtoy, .050 valve locks I can probably get at the parts store. So you think 1.6 rockers would work with that combo huh? Might be in the works one day, nice to know I wouldn't have to change anything.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I have herd that the 3.4 heads have an installed hight of near 1.7'' and that's why they take .5'' of lift and 2.8 heads don't.
I rember a debate that went on about that.
The +.050 forged locks from summit are crn-99095-1 and they cost $31.
You should go with new locks (or at least forged ones you reused, stamped = crap)and new retainers because you do not want to drop a valve.
I'm useing crane forged locks, K-700 springs and LS1 Ti retainers for 1.25'' straight wall spring convert as soon as they get here.
I still have yet hear of some one damaging there valve train from to much spring, it's all ways improper appication or not enought spring if the spring is to blame.
The cam pushes the lifter when opening and the lifter pushes back when it closes if your springs work like they should. You don't lose tons of torque opening and closeing valve springs like people tend to think.
Plus these flat tapet hydraluic cams arn't that agressive any way.
More valve controal gives you more hp no matter what, if you use bigger spring or lighter parts. You don't want valve float or flutter (diesel engine term).

Doward

Well, I've never heard of anyone actually breaking a valve from too much spring pressure, either. Wiping out cams, bent pushrods, actually one case where a set of lifters cam apart!

Too much spring pressure is as bad as too little. It's like everything with making a car go fast - it's a package deal, and must be treated as such. You can have too little or too much gear, too little or too much cam, too little or too much header... springs are the same. You want springs that give you the performance you need, at the rpm you want to run. Too little, you'll find coil bind, too much, you'll bend pushrods, break lifters, eat cams, etc...

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I'm not saying get 1.55'' springs or any thing like that all most any 1.25'' springs will be good for a flat tap cam.
1.55'' springs on a flat tap is to much spring, but more than any thing it's improper appication.
The biggest you might want for a flat tap cam is a 1.46'' wide spring for the meanest flat tap SBC and BBC cams, like a 244* dur @.050 with around .550'' lift on eather side.
People bending push rods and colaping lifters that sounds like improper appication, as if some one used a roller cam valve spring on regular hyd. lifters.

FbodTrek

BUMP BUMP it up!
OK! I got everything finally. CROWER baja beast cam (pt # 03015), K-Motion 700 springs, Crane + .50 Valve locks, Sealed Power Lifters and valve guide seals. Total cost is right at 200 bucks. I'll be installing the stuff this weekend (with a guy who has been at the game 30+ years just in case). Any last minute tips, warnings or suggestions would be apppreciated as always.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Some crane gold rockers and rocker studs to match would be sweet. more lift + full roller means plenty of power.

FbodTrek

Cam is out, took me maybe 2 hours to get down to it. One lobe has some pitting, and two of them are moderately worn. Tommorow morning i will be removing the old valve springs (took me a minor course in "valve spring replacement 101". It will probably take about an hour to replace the seals and locks/springs, cam installation will take 5 mins or so. The hard part will be getting the cam on TDC with the distributor and installing the intake manifold. Complete gasket set for the motor cost me 15 bux (minus head gskt). Oh yeah, I got the nitrous feeed lines yesterday too, I'll go ahead and mount everything after the Cam is in (made some nice brushed aluminum brackets ).

FbodTrek

Cam job is finished, I broke the car in yesterday (some nice gentle -3000 rpm distance driving). I brougth it into the powerband today, it feels.....slower . I imagine it's in my mind, mainly because it is missing the 3000 rpm torque spike I'm used to (which is followed by no power in the stock setup). The power curve is as broad as J-lo's **** though. It now barks 2nd gear with Sonar in the car (he's fat ). I can tell it picked up horsepower for sure, but the torque I'm used to just isn't there. I'll do some G-tech runs tonight (compare it to the previous average of ~16.4-16.6.) I imagine the MPH will go up at the track maybe I'll pick up a few tenths too. Oh well, the reason for the Cam was to get ready for the nitrous, and it will definately SCREAM on juice. As for idle, it's slightly lumpy, but actually sounds MUCH better than stock (idle quality). When revving it sounds much spikier and less poppy.

FbodTrek

Ummm......this cam sucks..... I G-tech'd it, it's running 17's now THIS is bullshiat. I dunno what the friggin problem is, maybe it needs a tune, but I don't see how a tune will even allow it to be as fast as stock. I know the intake is choking the hell out of it, but I can't do anything about it without having a Throttle body that's bigger. I am REALLY diassappointed, to top it all off, It has alot of trouble starting (like the timing is over advanced or somthing, really hard to turn over). I think I'll just spray a 100 shot on it and blow the fugger up, I'm tired of jacking with it. At least I did the install myself and I'm not out but 200 bux for the Cam and springs etc.

vsixtoy

Hate to say it but sounds like the valve springs aren't right, too much pressure from incorrect install height. I emphasized the importance to get an accurate measurement on this. This alone can cause the motor to turn over hard when starting, and cause excessive wear and possibly even premature failure on break-in.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

You got the K-700 and +.050'' locks so every thing should be good. You should all ways blue print your engine no matter what people tell you. All you realy need is a dial calaper for most of it.
I think you need my LS1 tb mod. I can't weight till my LS1/2.8 mutation is done. I don't think there ever going to let me get argon for my welder over here, I think I'll have to solder my intake together . I'm just going to take my plasma torch to the upper intake and solder the 3mm Al additions on there.
I haven't torched any thing in like a week and I miss it and am starting to feel the need to burn some metal.
The stock heads do out flow the intake. I think the 52mm tb is part of the problem.
Be for you get to pi$$ed off recheck you cam and ignition timeing and make sure you got signal from all your sensors. At least start with a ALDL reader.

Doward

I'm with Dean on this one. Sounds to me like you've got too much spring, and the motor is having to work like hell to spin itself over. ALWAYS triple check everything you do... If nothing else, hold off a couple of weeks, and I should have a rebuilt set of 2.8 heads that you can buy from me (that'll handle your cam, with correct spring pressures - but first, I'm trying to see if I can get my port/polish on them flow tested )

Doward

BTW, that's the same cam I've got, more or less. 204/214 422/444"

Leaves the line hard, and pulls HARD till about 5500 in my 3.1, with the P&P heads. 16.7 on a track, in my car, with CRAP exhaust, and BAD wheelspin (I think I pulled a 2.8 60' on that one ) So a 16.3-16.4 is definetly possible on my combo.

No reason for you to be slower, with an extra 1/3 a liter.

FbodTrek

It's turning over fine now, I messed with the timing a bit and discovered a stripped positive lug on the side post (it was loose and wasn't getting good contact). The power just isn't there, I can spin the tires from a stop anymore, it just pulls harder up top. Under reccomended valve spring info. on the cam sheet it says:
Approximate spring pressure- valve clsd: 90/100
valve opn: 250/260

I don't know what this combo gave me (K-700's and .050 valve locks), but if it's in that range or a little bit over, I shouldn't have a problem right? Anybody got some alternate spring suggestions? I doubt I can send the springs back to K-motion, but money is just a thing (although the ~3hours to replace them isn't). I want a combo that works and is proven, Doward, you're using Melling springs right?

Doward

Melling VS380, installed height of 1.72", yep.

FbodTrek

Did you use stock valve locks or not?

vsixtoy

Just requoting what I had previously warned you would happen.

FbodTrek

Yes yes, Dean You don't have to tell me "I told you so" lol. . I just need to find a solution to my problem the Melling springs Doward is using are rather cheap, I guess I could eat the ~25ish dollars for 12 of them (although I hate to pull those damn valve covers off again). Hey Doward, since the 3.4 heads are the same as the others, what do I have to do to get the springs to the right installed height?

Doward

Yep, stock locks with the springs. I pretty much got the 1.72" by removing the oil shedders - I don't recall doing any machine work, but CHECK YOURS ANYWAY!!

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I think it is your stock converter.
The open on those K-700's is 280lb @ 1.150'' but your not opening them to 1.150'' so they should be right on.
Your only talking being over the recomended minium spring pressure about 10lb no more then 20lb.

FbodTrek

So, there is no real reason it shouldn't be making power (or at least as much as it did). I'd like some opinion s on where I went wrong, while I'm at work today, I'll drain the oilpan and look for metal (if the cam is wiped *shudders*). After that, a compression test (even though I know it has good compression). In the meantime, I need a solution, I can't drive the car like this.

Doward

Are you an automatic? If so, then yes, stock stall convertor could have a big impact (negatively so) on your performance, especiallly now that you've moved the power band up a little.

But aren't you running a 3.4? I'm under the impression the stock cam is a 204/214 422/444 lift cam! (the CompuCam 2030)

vsixtoy

I'm not harping on you, sorry if it sounds that way- but what I did twice was give you the correct answer, however you keep asking again for some miricle answer . The converter will NO WAY affect the performance at this level. A stock convertor will pull the car through the powerband with twice the power. Your rpms have not come up so far as to warrent a highstall convertor for launchs- might get you out of the hole SLIGHTLY quicker, but you will not hold the rpoms high enough to 2nd and 3rd, the cam is no where near that range- so again, stock convertor is very adequate for that cam. You don't want to trust my opinion, then call any convertor shop and give them your specs- see what they suggest.

Oilpan, 10-20#'s over on closed seat pressure will show a performance loss- proper valve train componants is very crucial in making power where you want it.

FbodTrek

Problem SOLVED!!! (does happy dance). Me and a guy I work with (guy who aided me on the install), jacked with the timing a bit (without disconnecting the stupid bypass thingy), It now feels like it should, tire smokin fun. It pulls strong till about 4700 rpm, then I suppose HP takes over, cause it keeps on going strong till redline. I would like to thank everyone who tried to help, I appreciate everyones suggestions. To think that a little timing issue (which idled fine, didn't backfire or ping), could cause that much of a power loss, astounds me. This cam does NOT work with factory timing of 10*, It appears to like between 16-18* . Anyhow, I can commence the spanking of some *** now (Nitrous line came in today too...)

vsixtoy

Good deal- Thats alot of work to preform and not get some satifactory results from. Glad it all worked out.

pasky

Little off topic, but why you on probation now dean? .

Fbody trek: Is it possible to go with a bigger cam than what you getting for the 3.1? along the lines of intake 215 exhaust 224? Or is that just too big for these engines? Is the one you put in considered mild? Why not just get a monster the first time?

FbodTrek

I would call the Cam mild Pasky, but the gains were very nice. I'm sure the results with this cam would be the same on a 3.1. It's considered a "stage 3 cam" it's about the same as the crane 2030. It works with the computer and has a slight lope that doesn't hurt idle quality (won't die on you). I could have gone more aggressive, but I was worried about over camming the motor. The more duration you add, the crappier the idle quality will be, and the less vaccumn you will produce (for brakes...). I'm not sure who has the most aggressive cam on their 3rdgen, (Doward has the same one as me) Redraif has a more aggressive one if I'm not mistaken. If I could describe the gains it would be good torque from 2500-4700 followed by a nice pull to redline.

Doward

Fbod, imagine that same powerband, only with 12 psi behind it.

FbodTrek

Stop teasing me MAN!!!! LOL! Believe me, I would LOVE to go turbo, but if I ever do, it wont set in the engine bay . Longtubes would be a bitatch to plum into a turbine housing. SO, if I put the turbo over (around?) the rear axle, I can keep the same hedders and still have FI. I wouldn't want 12 psi because I'd have to rebuild, but I've heard they respong GREAT to just 5 psi !

pasky

I say go with the bigger cam, have the idle tuned higher on the chip and run a extra vacuum canister and go bigger. You got no exhaust manifolds holding you back .

FbodTrek

Chip tuning hasn't been accomplished on these prom's yet (to my knowledge). And I like the cam just fine for NA power, If I'm looking to bust times, I'll use the bottle This weekend is the Houston area annual thirdgen gathering, we are hitting up the track after the "party" So, I'll have some times for you guys hopefully (last time I went I had starter heat soak issues )

pasky

Wish I could be there . My car is being finished this week but I still have 01' stickers and no insurance on it yet. I havn't even test driven it for long distance trips, maybe I can hit you up on the next meeting.

FbodTrek

You don't have to be in your 3rdgen, but maybe next time

pasky

Nah, its no fun without it. I get to see everyone goofing off in thiers just making me wish I had brought mine. Getting the car back Friday, so its all gonna be great .

vsixtoy

I was curious and ran some figures to see how much lift you actually got compared to what I have. My cam is stock .262/.273 but I have 1.52 rockers. The cam you put in is .281"/.296" and the stock stamped rockers claim to be 1.5 but are actually aprox 1.47.

Here's the comparison with just adding 1.52 rockers, as opposed to installing a larger cam, springs, but keeping the stock stampedsteel rockers.

Mine= .398"/.415" duration of aprox 199/208 with the 1.52 rockers

Yours= .413"/.435" duration of aprox 202/211 with the 1.47 rockers

We are probably very close on power from the higher closed rate of your new springs robbing a slight amount of power.

I did this to show how just the 1.52 rockers will add quite a bit alone.

vsixtoy

I shou8ld also note that a completely stock 2.8 (1.47rockers)
is .385"/.400" and a duration of 194/202 @ 0.50"

vsixtoy

Sucks I can't edit-

Anyways, a stock .262/.273 cam with 1.6 rockers and springs will render you at .420"/.437"- Higher lift than the cam you installed. If you put 1.6 rockers on your new cam you will have .450"/.475"

FbodTrek

Ah, but there is a difference :
With the 3.4, the stock cam (the one I had anyhow), lift is .263I and .273E - this is with a 195*/201* duration. The 3.4 actually had a milder cam than the 2.8l !!!?? As far as power delivery goes, I'm not sure, I can say it is a worthwhile improvement (good gain for the money spent). I also think that the hedders compliment it rather well also (auto-dumps are fun at cruising speeds). According to engine simulation software, the Cam moves the powerband quite a bit, along with extending the range. I wouldn't be at all surprised If I now Make 200 ft/lbs at the wheels (I'm off to a dyno after the track). As far as horsepower, not too sure, have to find out. I'm very satisfied with the gains overall (NOW anyways )

vsixtoy

Its actually 196/204 duration- it is the same exact cam.

I agree the power notice is worth the money you spent- And I am pressing you to go for the 1.6 rockers in the near future also - wanted to show you what big difference that will bring you, afterall, your springs will easily handle it.

redraif

Mine is more aggresssive then the 2030 cam...

Reed Cam: TM276/282H12A2
(223/228 w/ 471/480 lift on 112 int C/L is 108)

Its got a great lope!
With this cam I had to run more timing as well.
We are at about 16-18 degrees as well!

Any Dyno results for us yet fbodtrek?

Mine with the cut out:
Max Power = 134.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 160.92hp @ the fly wheel
Max Torque = 207.4 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 248.88ft-lbs @ the fly wheel

Runs about 16.8 in the 1/4.
Way heavy, with no traction!

We think intake & the heads are choking HP. I know the exhaust is too restrictive. Mandel bends here I come! We plan to do somemore porting on the heads & get a real valve job. I have a throttle body on order from the guy in Finland, if I would ever hear back from him! Might even go for some more serious porting on the plenum and runners. Maybe extrude-hone, have not decided, a bit pricey I'm sure!