Dale

iTrader: (12)

Dual Superchargers :rockon:

ScrapMaker

this is strange... I thought ALL superchargers had a clutch, it's the only design that would make sense... otherwise it WOULD rob hp, and also many super chargers don't like the super high rpms ( I thought )

I still say, that since we have over an entire foot between the fan, and the serpentine belt... that' its a perfect place for some sort of power-adder... it's a shame no real performance company wants to take advantage of this...

Dale

iTrader: (12)

My GTP is not clutched, it spins all the time. Yes it does rob power when its not in its "power range".

I just searched on the mr2 s/c....
1. It is electronically controled via ecm. Kicks off/on like the a/c pump.
2. It is quite large, and not sure if would fit where the ac currently is.
3. It is set to run up to 8lbs of boost (I bet that would be like 3-5 on our cars?).
4. It is a roots style (just like my gtp) and ran via surpintine belt.
5. Installed on 4agze engines, 86-89 1.6l
6. To get more boost, you must change your CRANK pully, a smaller pully on the sc has problems because of the clutch.

TechSmurf

8 psi on a 1.6l would still be less-than-atmospheric on anything larger than a 2.4l

camaro_junkie

I read that there was a smaller pulley for the sc that upped the psi to 12 or 13, but it needed a different water pump pulley too because the water pump spun too fast with the smaller sc pulley.

TechSmurf: When I asked if it was too small, I couldn't find the size of the mr2 engine. Later I found out it was 1.6L and realized that you were right.

As for mounting it where the A/C compressor should go, my plan is to actually turn it around so it is between the fan and engine but the pulley is still where the A/C compressor pulley would go. That way you also have more space for your brackets.

ScrapMaker

that's sorta what I was thinking was a good idea... utilize that space

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I was thinking put it in place of the ac since it doesnt work well, and I never seem to use it. Also helps keep weight towards the center of the car. I auto-x, so I worry about that stuff.

ScrapMaker

You should put it more towards the passenger side, so it balances even better... but performance-wise you'd want it as close to the intake as possible...

one question I have... is how did you guys plumb your turbos to the intake? do you weld a metal pipe straight on the intake on our cars or what? it's gotta hold like 10psi...

92RS3.1L

Save some time, money, and aggrevation...and get a 350! I'm looking into doing it myself!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Then go get you a v8. I like to be different.

Doward

As someone that's currently doing a 350 swap for a fellow board member, I can honestly say this -

It was freaking easier to BUILD THE TURBO THAN SWAP THIS DAMN 350 IN!!!

I'd also like to point out, that it was altogether cheaper to turbo my 2.8, as well.

Everyone says 'Toss a 350 in'

They don't take into account the transmission, motor mounts (oh yeah, gotta drop the f'ing a arm to do that), relocating the brake line, actually building the 350, then getting the correct clamshells, and 3rd gen bracketry, a set of headers (not really going to put a 350 in, with a V6 exhaust, are you?) + a Y pipe + exhaust, then redoing the throttle bracket, after getting the carb bolted down.... man, the list just goes freaking on, for a CLEANLY installed V8 into a V6 car.

Yeah, that space between the motor and the radiator fan? That's where the turbo sits.

92RS3.1L

Hmm. Never thought of it like that. Nice

ScrapMaker

what everyone SHOULD be saying... is SELL the v6, and buy a v8 car... then upgrade it for extremely dirt CHEAP... guess they get their words mixed up... but for the cost of turbo kit for ANY car... like $1000 or less, you can get some kick *** power out of a 350...

I'm still waiting to see some numbers from Doward... cmon man! unless I just didn't see the thread where you finally got it all working flawlessly...

ScrapMaker

oh yeah... and in autotrader people are buying and selling these v6 cars at almost the same price as the v8 cars... very strange to me.... I guess people that have never owned one don't realize its not like a new car with a v6... (extremely fast)... Well at least that's my excuse... But maybe it's a good thing, maybe once Doward gets this thing going, it will rejuvenate my interest in racing and modifying my car... guess we'll see

Doward

*laughes* Slowly but surely, guys... I've got to make sure everything is PERFECT!

br()bert

Easier to build the turbo then to do a v6 to v8 swap.One could do a v6 to v8 swap in a couple of days and have a perfectly running car. I've seen this home made turbo talked about on here forever and its still not done.

One can do a v6 to v8 swap with basic hand tools minus a cherry picker. Any turbo is gonna need some welding work.

Pull the v6 and trans as one unit . Not all that hard.

You DO NOT have to drop the a arm to change the motor mounts. might make it easier but you DO NOT have to do that.

Whats so hard about moving the break line?

uhm, after the y pipe the exhaust is the same.

Throttle braket was $20. big deal.

May have been cheaper for a home made turbo kit but the power and reliablity you can get from a modded 350 will never be matched by a turbo 60* v6 like it or not.
________________________________________________
I'm still waiting to see some numbers from Doward... cmon man! unless I just didn't see the thread where you finally got it all working flawlessly...
________________________________________________--
Thats just it, I've seen these turbo threads forever now. Theirs always a problem and likely always will be. Not trying to bag on anyone, just giving MO. Seems like the v6 section has too many turbo threads

TechSmurf

'scuse me, br()bert.. mine still runs with only $100 in the project.

Dark_Knights

i would supercharge since the super charger turns with the engine right away and does not have to wait for exhaust pressuer to build like a turbo there will not be any "turbo lag" we placed a supercharger on my camaro i am very happy with the way it performs

br()bert

I thought your 6 was dieing?

Doward

br()bert, it's just simple lack of time. Full time college student + working full time = almost no time to work on the Camaro.

Notice I said for a *clean* install. Let's not forget disecting the electrical system, to remove the engine management side of things.

Consider this -

$300 - 350 block, already machined
$230 - Cast 350 rebuild kit
$250 - Rebuilt heads
$75 - Crankshaft kit
$300 - V8 700r4 OR
$500 - V8 WC T5 Stick shift
$120 - V8/V6 Clutch Assembly
$60 - Starter for 5 Speed
$40 - Starter for Auto
$25 - V8 Motor Mounts
$20 - Throttle Cable Bracket
$120 - Performer Intake
$160 - 600cfm Performer Carb
$20 - Aircleaner assembly
$15 - Fuel Pump
$10 - Fuel Pump Pushrod
$150 - Headers
$175 - Y pipe
$70 - V8 front springs
$10 - Vacuum hoses
$20 - Fittings + Connectors
$15 - Hard line for Fuel
$15 - Fuel pump plate
$20 - Fuel pressure regulator
$5 - Inline Fuel Filter
$750 - Installation (Labor)

So you end up spending $2795 for an automatic, or $3135 for the stick shift.

Now, I figured up the automatic one, but like I said, I'm in the middle of swapping a 2.8 to a 350, and yes, this kid has over $3000 into it.

The turbo kit will be about $2500. Installation? Remove Air Pump, Drill 2 holes, assemble, and bolt in place (simplified, of course)

And what will he have when he gets done? Mid 14s. Where's the Turbo Camaro running? Mid 14s, at the very least.

And now, what will it take to get that 350 going faster? Better cam, cat back exhaust, massive port job on the heads... and yes, it adds up. You have to pay to play.

What does it take to get a turbocharged car faster? Turn a ****.

Had I had my choice, with what I've experienced on this swap, I seriously would have just built a turbo system with a T61, and had the capability for 620rwhp. Granted, the stock motor wouldn't support that - but Tiago's gotten almost 400 on the stock rotating assembly.

Doward

Lol, mine's not. I'll be ordering the piping for the new Y pipe this coming week, btw... Expect some real results, in 2-3 weeks.

br()bert

No not you, tech's 6.

And as for the other stuff. I'm not going to get into the whole modded v6 vs modded v8 discussion, last time i did it turned into a bunch of mad v6er's who didnt really read what i wrote and just took everything the wrong way.

Good luck with the project.

Doward

Hey, have you gotten to the track yet?

br()bert

No not yet. Im still job hunting. Here in Philly the new job rate is less then 1 %. Can't wait to move away from here.

Car has been running good though except for one issue i had that turned out to be gas related.

Only car i raced since i did the swap was a late 80's mustang gt (stick), I did'nt have a hard time beating him at all.

I just cant go to a track right now. Lack of $.

Did i ever tell you Philadelphia SUCKS!!!!!!!!?

TechSmurf

Actually I've come to blame the oil pump and a preexisting condition with the bearings for what's going on.. it's showed little sign of getting any worse, regardless of how I beat on it.

ScrapMaker

its hard to compare costs here... since smurf got his stuff for dirt cheap... but for the rest of us, it would at LEAST cost as much as Doward's kit, plus the install...

Along the lines of v6 vs v8 vs price... what I wonder, is it worth it to put a turbo on a stock motor (v6), because if its gonna need a rebuild, its almost cheaper to just rebuild an 8 and drop it in.... and if you're motor-illerate like me... you will accidentally spend somewhere near $2000 getting the stupid 6 replaced.... DOH I should have slapped myself, or maybe even smacked myself, for that mistake... oh well, at least SUPPOSEDLY I will have a working motor for like 10 more years, but the rest of the car won't make it that long... I guess I could have one slick-*** go cart in a few years! heh

ScrapMaker

or was it $2500? damn now I can't remember, but I still feel the pain from them raping me....

br()bert

For the price of a turbo kit and the cost of building the v6 to last you could have a v8 with much more power.(techs turbo not included in this) Not to mention performance parts everyplace you look. And the v8 motors (esp with no air tubes ect) are a million times easier to work on.

I can see some people would like to be different, but sometimes its not woth the trouble.


btw the go cart idea sounds cool.

AM91Camaro_RS

i really don't want to get into the whole v6 vs. v8 thing (again). but, i don't know how the v8 is easier to work on, there is less room and i think you all keep forgetting about the installation of the motor. i'm not bashing v8s, i like them, a lot! for now i'm keeping my v6 but some day, i might swap to a 350 or even a 383. infact, my dad and i are finishing up a 350 swap into his s-10 (from a 4.3) even that requires lots of custom work. will it be worth it? yes, it should be. how much time is into it, so far? he spent ALL of last week on it, took the week off of work, and its still not quite done.

point, bolting a turbo kit on the v6 would be a little more simple.

br()bert

To change my spark plugs (keep in mind i have no smog pump or air tubes, if i did it would be a little harder) It takes me 10 minutes.


To change my valve cover gaskets it takes me MAYBE 10 minutes.

To change my intake manifold it would take maybe 20-30 minutes.

Try ANY of this with a v6,with the exception of plugs and im positive you'll take more time.

Sure theres less underhood room but you also dont have a compact smashed together motor.

FbodTrek

But if you're lucky enough to have a carbed setup, things get ALOT easier . I admit, there are some good points to the carb....By the way Brobert, have ya been to the track yet???

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Um, wrong. I can have my entire intake off in about 15 minutes...same with the valve covers.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

You can take the valve cover off a 60*-V6 real fast if you have the right combo of 1/4'' drive deep sockets, extentions and U-joints.
If you don't have very many or very good selection of tools it will take you a while.

Doward

Same here.. I can have the entire top of the motor apart in about 20 minutes!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Start engine, let it start knocking, take it back down to rocker studs, torque them, set rockers, install vc's again, install intake, connect all sensors, start engine.

1 hour 3 minutes :rockon:

br()bert

Yeah things are easier with a carb then injection, no i have not went to the track yet. Im still job hunting. Doward asked me about it too in another thread. I cant wait to go.
__________________________________________________
You can take the valve cover off a 60*-V6 real fast if you have the right combo of 1/4'' drive deep sockets, extentions and U-joints.
If you don't have very many or very good selection of tools it will take you a while.
__________________________________________________
I used to take mine off like that when i had the 2.8. ITs STILL easier to work on a v8 (carbed , no smog, air tubes ect) Then it is to work on the compact 60* To take the vc's off you dont have to have any swivels to try to get around a plenum or anything. Rocker arm adjustment is a 5 minute job.
___________________________________________________

Um, wrong. I can have my entire intake off in about 15 minutes...same with the valve covers.
____________________________________________________
I was referring all comments to the 60* v6 but thanks for playing

IROC57TPI

Question:

Why would anybody stick a turbo or a blower on a V6?

Answer: to go faster, right?

Hypothesis: If you got $ for artificial asperation then why not just upgrade to a ** (edited for safety purposes)

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Because my V6 will have your V8 begging for mercy

IROC57TPI

The TTA or GN motor make sense because they're made to take the power, but a 2.8 or 3.1 is just gonna keep costing $ for hard to find parts.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

To each their own.

Doward

Nobody knows that yet. Have you seen the STOCK 60º pistons? They're beefy as hell. The stock rods are FORGED, and GM RATED to 7k rpm.

Tiago's got 350hp+ on a STOCK 3.4 ROTATING ASSEMBLY - THAT WAS PULLED FROM A JUNKYARD!.

We'll soon see what the 3.1 does, and the 2.8 can do.

GreyFox

because when i get beat by a v8 its expected alright, but when i beat a v8 it wont be alright for him/her because i have a v6

ScrapMaker

as long as the guy with the 8 hasn't put at least half the money you have into your six for a turbo or whatever... then uh oh... displacement wins...

its interesting and fun and all that to make these 6's hella fast... just not economical... but I still say, it might be much easier to slap a turbo/supercharger on a 6... then chip the computer, than to put an 8 in a v6 car...

if I had enough money to turbo a 6, I would just sell the 6 and buy an 8 car, that way the computer would be easy and everything would be perfect, just build the motor the way you want....

but like the man says, to each his own... but I still say he's a jerk, cuz his "own" is a GTA/(TTA?)! gimme!

br()bert

_____________________________________________

Seriously i know the v6ers g0d Tiago made some power with a 60*, but it will always be easier and cheaper and get WAY more power per $ with a v8 then with the 60* and it will most likely last longer. The 60* is and will always be under the v8's shadow. BTW wasnt it said someplace the 60* can only handle a 50 shot because of " crappy pistons".

But whatever you wanna do is your buisness. Hey at least no ones on here talking about a honda.

Doward

I don't believe it's the pistons - it's the lack of proper a/f and timing management that prevents going over a 50-75 shot, stock.

TechSmurf

I smell ignorant V8 guys starting to bash... cut it out. Now. If you don't have something productive to contribute to this thread ("Get a V8", regardless of HOW you say it, is NOT productive on the V6 forum.. ever) you are posting at serious risk to yourself. Aight?

IROC57TPI

What I said was productive. I was trying to get some people to see the light, thats all. V6's have their places in daily drivers, but to try and put a blower or turbo on them is just plain stupid. Why waste your time and $? Not bashing, just shedding some light to those left in the dark.

And if what I said was out of line... screw you over-sensitive underdogs.

BTW I own and drive a Mustang now, so are you going to ban everyone that sez I need to buy a F-body? Same principle.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I like it when I ask about moding my V6 and people say some thing that takes no intelligence to think of like "why don't you sell it and get a V8" or "just swap in a V8".
As if I couldn't think of that on my own.
So I took part of that advice and got a Z28 2yr ago, but I still have the 6 and mod it more than the Z28.
The v6 on 14'' 205mm wide wheels feels like it hold turns better than the Z28 with 15'' RS wheels and 235mm gator back tires.
I like how the V6 handels off road, it's fun.

IROC57TPI

An 85 IROC with a 305 isn't much of an upgrade from a 6'er. Get a 89-92 and see how your opinion changes quickly

br()bert

Who's bashing? Im just clearing up facts. I get it make a v6 guy a mod and anyone can say anything about a v8 engine but make ANY statment about a v6 car thats not "woohoo a turbo!? dude your my idol" and you get threats like "ill out you on probation or ban you"

I was under the impression it was the pistons that couldnt handle more then a 50 shot , Doward cleared that up. Ya learn something new everyday.

All i have said is Putting a v8 in a v6 car isnt more work then putting on a turbo.

Its cheaper to make power with a v8 then a v6.

I've also talked about how jobs suck here in philly and other crap.

ALL of this is in reply to someone else bringing up a v8!! IF you dont want the differences discussed between the v6s and v8's then DONT BRING THEM UP!


Again if the treats are directed towards me, i feel like you are wrong. If they are not then i appologize.

Also we all own 3rd gens , we all want more out of our engines so lets just stfu and be happy.