vortex

We don't have to rebuild the motor.. its just the turbo seal is leaking and fouling the plugs... my guess is they were dry rotted from when they were sitting on a shelf... and it's 10 years old. Im thinking we should just upgrade the turbo at the same time.

AM91Camaro_RS

were you talking about the bearings in the turbo then? i thought that you meant the main bearings in the motor.

vortex

well yeah,i was, but i was just saying when we pull the oil pan (now with custom speed hole) I would like to see if anything was damaged.. the jack didnt go in enough, but its good to find out whut got fuggered up. I want to consult with Doward on the decision makings, but i believe we pretty much decided to rebuild the turbo and see how it goes..

Lee7

i would replace the oil pump with a high volume one while i had the oil pan off.

Better safe than sorry, high oil pressure is always a good thing.

vortex

there in lies the problem.. unless its different with your cars, for high volume pumps you need to have 7 qts. of oil.. because it sucks it out too fast for the crank to get an oil bath..
then your bottom end goes.

Doward

Lee7, a few pointers -

http://tiago.phxchevy.com/

Tiago's running 7psi, not 20 man... and he's also got new heads and all. He's done a LOT of work to his car!

Also, oil pressure means nothing. Oil flow is important! I'll happily trade 10psi pressure for 10gph flow.



Anyway, IROC... man... you can't believe anyone would ever sell a turbo kit with PVC, do you? The final setup will be fully stainless steel, mandrel bent piping. Intake and exhaust...

The key is - THE TURBO WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ordering the seals Monday.... hopefully. Either way, guys, this has been a hell of a ride!

Lee7

i have talked to both Tiago and his freind boostnzsandm, Boost told me tiago ran up to 20psi of boost on the dyno pull where get made 400ft/lbs of TQ. He doesnt run it normally like that, but did it once for that run. There is no way you are going to make 400ft/lbs of torque on just 7psi of boost.

yeah, he has ported heads and stuff, be he also still has the stock bottom end. Yours heads are not very likely to break under that much power, the first thing to go would be the cast pistons.

And oil PRESSURE is what keeps the main bearings and rod bearings spinning on a film of oil, not volume.

You dont need a 7qt oil pan to use a high volume oil pump, Fiero's have the same size oil pan as us and they use the pump just fine.

EDIT:

And there is no way 7psi of boost is going to max out a T04 :sillylol:

Lee7

ehh, the crank never dips into the oil, and if it did... that would be a bad thing. The only place where the crank needs to be oil'ed is on the bearings, and all that is supplied by oil plumbing in the block and crankshaft. (if you ever look at a crankshaft, you will see holes in it, that is where the oil comes out of)

Oil on the crank weights and stuff is a bad thing, that little bit of wieght can throw things off ballance.

Why do you think alot of race engines have "crank scrapers" installed?

vortex

wow... ok where did i say the crank swims in oil? I was merely stating that high volume oil pumps on most engines will pull all of the oil out of the pan... and that is a bad thing..

Lee7

well, you did say the crank takes an "oil bath"

vortex

yes... the crankshaft does have oil on it during operation, its not submerged in oil. and those "crank scrapers" as you put it, are called windage trays.. they block most of the oil from getting on the crank but allow some at certain points.

Lee7

crank scrapers and windage trays are 2 different things.

Windage trays prevent the wind from the crankshaft from making a "wall" of air and not letting the oil past it to go back down into the sump thing.

Oil scrapers are exactly what it says, they scrape the oil off of the crankshaft so that the extra weight of the oil doesnt throw the crank offballance.

Sometimes you can get a windage tray with a crank scraper on it, but normally they do not come with one.

funstick

my question is did i nail the tune or not ??? im curios as hell about that. any comments ?

The_Raven

Just to correct an oiling issue, the holes in the crank are for rod bearing oiling, that is transfered from the main bearings, the oil supply to the main bearings comes from the left, lifter oil galley, that also feed the cam bearings, the left oil galley gets it's oil from a passage drilled vertically that goes to the filter mount, which gets it's oil from the passage leading to the rear main journal.

I know backwards way to describe the oil flow, but in this we see that the rods are the last part to get oil, which means that those holes in the crank are the second last thing to see oil under pressure.

camaro_junkie

Well, having personally compared super to turbo, I have always been a fan of supers. And I thought if I ever took on a project like this it would be a super. But the work of Doward and Vortex is pulling me over to the other side.

Congratulations on breaking through the barrier guys. Don't listen to all that other crap that people are telling you. You did it. It works. It's not very pretty... yet. It works though. And now that you know it works you can justify spending the money making it reliable and pretty. Why would someone think you would put a crapload of money into something that might not work? But now you've proven it does.

Lee7

you are correct, in our engines, the 2 most important things to get oil, get it last, which is why the Pre-85 blocks had alot of oiling problems, until they revised it a little.

Even after revisions, the main bearings are the 2nd to last to get oil, and rod bearings are last. Which is why its pretty damn important to keep up oil pressure and volume.

GM Sells a High Volume oil pump for our engines, and just by changing the springs you can turn it into a high volume AND high pressure pump. (80 PSI to be exact)

IMO, anyone wanting to do any type of performance build up on these blocks, and skips the upgraded oil pump is asking for major trouble.

Lee7

Turbo > *

The sound of a turbo is just amazing, it makes me almost want to cream my pants.

Superchargers have this loud *** shrieking sound, which makes all non-educated people think your car is broke and is a POS.

The_Raven

I had the same train of thought with my build, well I was sure it was going to "work", but I wanted to see how well, and to what extremes it would take to make it work well. No point in putting too much money into it before you know if the combo will work.

funstick

most engines hace similar type oiling. with a hv pump the best thing you can do is to have the valve trian oiling restricted.otherwise that hv pump will flood the vavle covers and pump the pan dry.

camaro_junkie

I won't argue that turbos are awesome, but I just like the feel of the super better, that's all. It's different for other people I'm sure.

Lee7

i doubt it, because not 100% of the oil goes to the rocker arms, i doubt even 10% goes to the rockers since they dont need that much oil anyways. The heads have a pretty decent channeling design to channel oil back into the lifter valleys, so its basically impossible for oil to be "stuck" in the valve covers because gravity sends it right back down to the oil gallery.

if you have ever seen the oil gallery's you can easily tell that its almost impossible to get even a half quart of oil in there without it spilling over the edge and back down into the oil pan.

the oil gallery is pretty small, i dont see how it would be possible to have even a half quart of oil in there.

If the oil gallery only uses up about a half quart, and the oil filter uses about that much, that gives us only a 1 quart of oil thats NOT in the oil pan, so you have 4 quarts of oil left sitting in the pan waiting to get sucked up! Thus it is very very unlikely that the pump would pump all the oil up to the top of the engine.

And even if the pump somehow miraculously managed to pump all the oil into the valve covers, gravity would just send it right back down to the oil pan.

And you also have to think about it this way, why in the hell would GM sell you, and recomend a high volume oil pump if they thought it would starve the oil pump itself of oil?

614Streets

Interesting thread , although I dont quite understand why you half *** something together. I respect the effort, just not sure how your expecting that junk to provide good results. No flame intended.

vortex

You're right, we are not expecting junk to do anything good.

We have Proven that it works.. and its taken a little 2.8 down at least a second.. Not as fast as my stang, but hey, at least we dared to try it, and we actually did it.. i wanna know who else can say that. any other currently boosted 2.8 thirdgen'ers on here?

camaro_junkie

Well, I wouldn't say half a$$ed. It's more like having the courage to spend some money to see if it works. It's all about R&D. And as for results, I can't speak for the heroes, but I would guess they were hoping for good results, but only expecting results. So if you don't have anything nice to say, go buy an import.

Lee7

thats just a very very early prototype thing, they didnt expect it to work good at all, they just expected it to work. And it did, so they accomplished what they were trying to do. Now they are going to build a more robust and non-ghetto rigged system to see how it can really perform.

of course, i would not expect you to know this since you probably did not read all of this thread, or the other 2 threads about this setup.

Its not your fault tho, whatever dumb *** admin at these forums decided to set the default post per thread count to like 75 needs to be shot, its retarded.

Anyways, i like i was saying earlier, they knew it was going to be crappy, they knew it wasnt going to work at optimum efficiency, they knew all this. They did a great job of doing what they set out to do. Turbocharge a 2.8L 3rd gen.

Their next build will hopefully be better.

Lee7

this is 614Streets setup:









his setup is awsome, but i dont think its going into a 3rd gen.

Still awsome by any means.

Nixon1

Holyyyy crap.... I wanna hump it...

614Streets

I RESPECT the labor , I RESPECT the effort , I RESPECT the determination. If you guys take it to the next level and actually spend some money to do it right , you will prove yourself to me you really like these engines and you have bigger and better dreams.

All in all Id like to see you succeed and go fast. And by fast I mean 13's or better. Trust me I have faced the walls with the 60.


I know if you could you would fab up a better set up. Time will tell if you have the desire to do so. As you maybe can tell by my attitude Ive been with 60 v6's since 1997 and been reaserching them since 1994.

Lee7

would you happen to know where to get a 3.31" Forged crank?

Ive been searching everywhere for like 2 months now, and still nothing

I know those midget class racer guys have to know where to get some forged cranks.

614Streets

Sure do , Moldex in detroit michigan. I think I still have the phone number and address somewhere. In the mean time search moldex crankshaft.

614Streets

Moldex Tool Co crankshafts
25249 W. Warren Avenue
Dearborn Heights MI 48127
313-561-7676

The_Raven

Mines not a third gen, or a 2.8, but it is a 60*V6, that is boosted, my first custom turbo build, and I think it turned out well, Does that count?

As for the hostility, flaming, critisism, etc, what ever you want to call it, I'm not sure it was all inteneded to be down right negitive, but it could be read in that manner. Honestly I too when, I saw the pics with the PCV, kinda shook my head, but I can see how it would be a quick easy way to do such a set-up and see if any drastic changes need to be made, and I'm sure that it will be changed in the future, and an improvement will be seen from such, being not limited to 90s and 45s, but any angle you could want.

I know how expensive this can be, to do a custom turbo set-up, I spent somewhere around $2000 CDN on my engine build AND turbocharging, I used some used stock parts, like rods, the crank, block, heads, valves, etc, because I figured that since this was just my daily driver, and a research project to see what lets go first, I didn't want to spend a lot of cash on it, from the beginning, I was trying to do it for around the $1000 mark, but when I found out the block I bought was already .030" over, well I kinda needed new pistons, that sent the budget up about $400 CDN right there, and a few other unforseen things came up. I have between $1000 to $1200 into my engine alone, about $500 into my turbo set-up and the rest is all the small parts and hoses etc to make it all work, like they say, what ever you think it will cost you, double it, it worked in my situation.

TravisZ28MAXX

hey 614, where di you get your intake for that supercharger, is it a factory two barrel converted?if so did you do the machining yourself or did you have some one else do it? thats a cool setup might have to imitate you if I can get your specs on that motor

TechSmurf

Well, I got most of the passenger's side of the engine compartment cleared out yesterday... two bolts holding in the manifold.. interesting notes, a bolt was missing, the entire egr assembly was loose, found a vac leak in egr, and noticed a distinct lack of gaskets.... I'm amazed my car had any power to speak of =P

still need to unbolt the Y-pipe today, cut it from the main exhaust, and bring it with me to Tucson to weld a plate onto it, effectively making it a U pipe. Mandrel piece in the future. Looking at the fun I'll encounter with the alternator relocation, I'm considering instead routing my exhaust under the stock alternator location and adding heat shields for the water and electrical above.. just too much of a hassle at the moment.. oh well. Have a fun weekend, folks.. catch you guys next week

Lee7

i called.

the guy who specialise's(sp?) in Crankshafts wasnt in, but the guy on the phone said it would run roughly $2150 (US)

damn... i cant get that now, i guess i will have to use the 981 forging crankshaft until i can afford it later on down the line.

F585

Hey Dow, you know how to bang a dent out of a fender right?

funstick

at molodex youll need to talk with (little joe ) tell him d&s motorsports reffered you.

Lee7

ok cool, i will call on monday.

Will this make the price any lower, i think the price the guy quoted me for was for a totally custom V6 crank, and not one that they have the forging blueprints on hand.

F585

I heard about those cranks http://www.eastendsc.com/

funstick

most of the cranks molodex does for custm stuff are billet. there like 5 minutes from where i work. anyway they qouted you for a billet. little joe is big time hooked up with parts. there are some forgings out there and if anybody knows where they are itll be little joe.so tell him what you need im sure he will find it somewhere.

614Streets

Uh they do have the blueprint for the 3.1 crank , dont let them tell you otherwise.

Lee7

alright, so "Little Joe" is the guy i guess i should be talking to?

I hope he is in on Monday when i call up. Yeah, $2150 does sound alot like the price for a custom billet crank, not a forged crank they have the blueprints to.

biff85ta

Doward I have a drivers side fender if you want it yo pay the shipping and its yours just shoot me an email if you want it.

TechSmurf

Woohah! Have turbo flange and downpipe flange ready to be welded to pipe.. manifold flange is cut to size, but unfortunately, thanks to forces beyond my control plotting against me (a bolt on the Y-pipe absolutely refusing to come loose) I was forced to leave the stock manifold at home, and couldn't machine the new bolt holes/ports, nor could I face it. Looks like next weekend for welding that up and getting this show on the road. Hopefully I can have everything else finished by then, or possibly even find someone locally who has a mill and transfer punches I can borrow.. muahaha. So close. Oh so close.

Next step. Pipe fabrication. Wish me luck.

Current deadline: aug 22

Doward

TechSmurf, good luck! Love to have a battle of the turbo'd V6s

We're all doing our own thing. Next year or so, we'll see who's still running, and who's not. Simple as that

Heading to the boneyard tomorrow to get an oil pan. My first priority is to get the turbo nailed back down. I'm going to do some more R&D on the oil return - I think I might have a resistriction in it that's causing oil pressure to build in the turbo, and force oil by the seals.

The seals looked really good, as did the bearing, when I pulled the turbo apart. Tomorrow will tell more.

As you guys can see, my internet is very sketchy right now. Vortex will be posting a lot of the updates.

The car may not look very good, but I'll be damned if I stop this project this far into it!

Doward

Oh yeah - funstick - the calibration is very close. Seems to be running a bit rich, and 6psi was no problem with 12º initial timing, on 93 (and some 3 month old 87).

I'm going to shoot for 8psi oin the next run. If that works, I think you and I should meet up online, and go over the timing tables, to see if we can increase the timing at all, under boost.

For now, better safe than sorry!

Next - new oil pan, retapped, and new plugs.

The_Raven

I'll ask again....

What are the specs on your oil return? Is it at least 5/8" in diameter, and have a pretty good down ward slope to the oil pan? The oil once it enters the bearing housing gets pretty frothed up, nesesiatating the large oil return, if it's not large and able to slide down the return into a spot that is ABOVE the oil level, then it will back up, blowing out seals, or at the very least oil will go by the seals and into the compressor and turbine sections.

vortex

yeah. with this new pan, we are gonna upgrade to 3/4" just to be safe.. and yeah, it was routed well too. We're nitpicking ourselves.

funstick

i just went into this with my honda fortunately t3 seals are robust. i fabbed a new manifold to fix a few sizing issues and spool up problems. yes oil drian is critical. the bigger the better. remeber oil level with the engine running is different then when its sitting.
still above the sitting oil level is the best.

The_Raven

I agree with Funstick.
I used the same idea, I welded my bung for the oil drain back as high as I could in the oil pan, I wish I could have ran it back into the other side of teh engine, to go with crank rotation, but unfortunatly, I couldn't, and next time I will do a couple of things differently when it comes to the drain back.