87CamaroMan

Hello,
My 2.8lt recently went. I am gonna out a 3.4lt in it for now untill I can afford a 350. But I can find all the steps on doing the motor swap. But I was wondering. What parts will work from my 2.8 on the 3.4 and what will I have to go get for the 3.4 that my 2.8 wont support. I can only find partial list.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

What's on your list now?

There are currently 3 flavors of the swap, pick your favorite & I'm sure one of us will chime in w/more input

87CamaroMan

these I have read about in the "3.4 swap boogy"
"Will work"
Oil pan
Timing cover
Distributor
not sure on water pump. (i just put a new one in the 2.8 right before it went)
I was also wondering if I can use my MPFI setup on the 2.8 for the 3.4 without changing the Fuel injectors... there like 72 bucks a piece and I don't have 432 bucks just for thoes. I am on a tight budget with this... So I am trying to get it in and running and worry about the fine tunning later.

Oh it might be helpful if I said what kinda car it was 1987 Camaro Sport Coupe LT.

I have never changed a motor before... I am getting help from people who have though... my dad has changed a few motors before. ex. 455 60's Buick La Sabre. 430 Buick Wildcat. Never anything with all the wiring harness mess... So I am gonna ask lots of questions before I do all of this.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

this was my second engine swap, & first w/fuel injection. On the cardomainsite, I have the the 3.4 long block, 85 fuel rail, 3.4 injectors. Liek Karls gonna say, the "easiest" thing to do is to make the 3.4 look exactly like the 2.8. For my swap, I went "off the beaten path" just a little.

87CamaroMan

Ok you said long block did they make 2 different blocks for the camaro/firebird from 1993-1995.. I am gonna start to call the junk yards tomorrow to find one... I also read that they also made a 3.4 with a dual overhead cam and one with a single. witch were in the camaro/firebird. I'd rather have the dual overhead cam... but who wouldn't.

KED85

From the 3.4 you keep
the injectors
the flexplate & Balancer.
You swap those FI items into the 2.8 injector fuel rail
By using your original 1987 2.8 timing chain & oil pan, you reuse all your original motor front end stuff onto teh 3.4 long block.
It's all spelled out in the swap thread.
NO on teh DOHC
Why, it just won't work, believe me!
Really the 3.4 is a great option/upgrade & you'll NOT BE DISAPPOINTED!
Yeah that's my 1985 Firebird with a 3.4 in there.
Please go find a GM Performance Parts catalog to read about the 3.4 mill & why it's one hot engine!
GM book at any GM dealer for $6.95 WORTHWHILE READING!

Project: 85 2.8 bird

long block = erl pan to heads
short block = crank to cam

The DOHC,..................think of it in this way:

F*rd basically made 2 351 engines, the Cleveland, & the Windsor. The Cleveland was the "race/fast" one of the two. It was put in the top notch mustrds or the time. Even went into the Pantera. The Windsor is the more "homely" one, less power, but will last longer. My bestest friend in MD has had 2-4 351's built. ALl 351W, they produce good power & have good reliability.

3.4 DOHC ~ 351C
3.4 F-body ~ 351W

price the lowest milage 3.4s from 93-95 Firebird/camaros.

KED85

I was deciding that very question myself when I had the chance to do the swap.
I was offered a DOHC mill.
I turned it down for two reasons after my research.
1-WIDTH.
Way too wide.
WAY too wide.
2-The engine is designed as a FWD ONLY engine.
Why go thru hoops for it?
Stick in the 3.4 RWD 1993-1995 F Body.
From $210-$800/$900 (I pay top price due to condition & no complaints!)
NOW 1995 also offered the 3.8, 90* V6, started in mid 1995 produced cars.
Stick with the simple & effecive solution.
Any faster or easier?
Sell the car & buy a V8 & serious.
This is a great swap when done right.
It's all in the details
ya gotta love your car, 100% for the effort.
The custom swap is alot of details.
Rebuild all stuff now for conversion (distributor & tranny).
The finished product is a very impressive vehicle. I really enjoy this car in LA Traffic.
This car pulls like a freight train even with R12 AC blasting ice cold & loaded with my family.
I won't win every race, but sure is lots more fun trying & many times winning! I race for traffic lane space, very valuable property in Los Angeles!

87CamaroMan

OK so let me just double check and then I should be ready for shopping. So I only need the 3.4 fuel injectors, flexplate and Harmonic Balancer, and everything left from the 2.8 including the wire harness and Computer will work on the 3.4. And just one more question can I use the 2.8 injectors I have now. because the 3.4 injectors run like 72 bucks a piece, and I don't have $432 for new injectors. I am sorta on a tight budget with this.
And thanks for all of the advice and help. I really appreciate it.

F585

They should be around 15-18 bux each at the yard.

87CamaroMan

Ok cool... but can I just use the 2.8 injectors for now till I can get the cash for the 3.4 injectors

F585

No you would be running lean.

KED85

When ya buy the wrecking yard 3.4 long block, you get the 3.4 injectors.
You are correct, the 3.4 stuff ya use is the
injectors, Harmonic balancer & flexplate (if auto).

DEPENDING UPON CONDITION,
use all the left over 2.8
induction/ingition/exhaust/t. chain cover & pullies/oil pan
Help?
You ask to buy a complete intact used running long block, 3.4, fully dressed, including the "Y" pipe & CC.
Also ask for the 1993-95 FRAME mounts, too.
They swap right onto your ride & they are "newer" & stronger than your older original ones.

IF ya can, go see subject before pulling.

The PS Pump is also newer & swaps, need only change 93-95 pully to your original year pully to match up!

TomP

Wouldn't the computer just increase the pulse ratio to compensate? Just WAG'ing... (wild a-- guessing) maybe it'd be enough to just get him on the road for now.

Try not to re-use your old plenum gaskets; FelPro makes an upper intake manifold kit that comes with all new gaskets:

upper plenum to lower plenum
lower plenum to intake manifold
intake manifold to engine block
throttle body to plenum
valve cover gaskets (cork, yuck, lay a bead of blue rtv instead)

I think the kit ran me $35 a few years ago... buy it for your original year of the 2.8 motor you have. You could cut new plenum gaskets using a roll of thin black gasket material and an x-acto knife, but man, cutting the plenum-to-intake gasket would be hell.

85f-bird

i know it's off subject, but comparing clevelands and windsors is like talking about a 400sbc and a 427bbc. While the 351W and the 351C are both the same as far as displacement, the difference is the blocks. The 351C which is considered the performance engine is also a big block engine, using a big block bolt pattern on the tranny, big block heads, and crank, etc. the 351W is a small block ford engine, which uses the same styled heads as the 302 ford or 5.0 , along with using the same bolt pattern, so if you see a guy driving a foxbody mustang with 5.8L tags on it, he might have swapped a 351W in place of the old 302, it'd be like doing a 2.8-3.4L swap, while swapping in a 351C would be much more like doing a 305 v8 to 454 v8 swap. for about 3 weeks i drove reguarlly a 1966 ford fairlane with a 351W in it, the car would run 12.9xxx with a set of slicks on the rear, very solid vehicle. And i just finished pulling a 400ci Cleveland block from my best friends 1979 Lincoln Cont. Mark V. That engine took the 5000lb lincoln into the 15's and after the build that's being done to it, we're hoping for 500 horsepower to put into the t-bucket we're getting.

KED85

THAT SOUNDS LIKE SO MUCH FUN!!!!

87CamaroMan

OK. I found a 1995 3.4lt in a firebird with 60 some K miles on it about 2 hrs from me. they want $500 it includes everything but water pump, starter, and all normal accessories. I belive it has the 3.4 SFI on it. Will my Wireharness from the 2.8MPFI work with the 3.4 SFI or will I have to swap out the injectors and use my 2.8ltMPFI? The only other one I can find is the same but in a Camaro, it has 56k and they want $850 for it. So I think I'll just take a drive and get the cheaper one.

KED85

One uses the ORIGINAL VEHICLE induction/ignition/exhaust system
Also use the ORIGINAL timing cover, oil pan, water pump, pullies.
INSERT THE 3.4 INJECTORS into the ORIGINAL 2.8 FUEL RAIL. Yep, they fit!

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I'm the exception to Karls rules , but he did me good. I also posted a thread on a 3.4 long block if interested.

87CamaroMan

I see you want $350 plus shipping. I would defenently be interested in that ... get my an estimate of shipping to Johnstown Pa 15906. And we might be able to arrange something...

85f-bird

87camaro, best luck on this swap. If you stick aroudn the boards and ask ur questions, everything will be a guarenteed answer and you're going to love the setup that you have once things are completed. Off subject again, went by my friends house today, and his mom finally had the ole' lincoln towed away, less motor, tranny, a grant steering wheel, and every interior and exterior piece that said Mark V on it but apparently the guy who took it is going to do a full body resto on the car, so hopefully we'll get to see it driving around sometime in the future. Know that's what my friend would have wanted,much rather than it going into some bone yard and rotting away.

87CamaroMan

I started to rip the blown 2.8 out today. And I was looking at the intake manifold. And compared it to a picture I have a 3.4 intake manifold and They look completely different. Do I also have to take the Intake manifold form the 2.8 and switch it to the 3.4... And one more question Do I have to use the 2.8 MPFI Intake or can I use the 3.4 SFI intake. I am getting a Complete 3.4 with everything on it.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

unless your getting the ecm & complete engine/ecm hsrness, use the 2.8 intkes. if you don't have a cold start injector then you can reuse the lower manifold.

KED85

Again
Keep it simple!
Strip the 2.8 of all the good stuff.
ORIGINAL VEHICLE Induction/ignition/timing cover/oil pan
Stick the 3.4 injectors into the 2.8 fuel rail.
LEAVE the 3.4 EXHAUST MANIFOLDS ALONE. SERIOUS! Why ruin a good sealing gasket & the original vehicle exhaust bolts right back up!
Redress the 3.4 with the 2.8 stuff above.
Upgrade/stick in new stuff (timing chain).
BUY THE ENGINE GASKET COMPLETE REBUILD KIT FOR THE ORIGINAL VEHICLE ENGINE (if it's a 1988, ask for a 1988 2.8 engine gasket rebuild kit)
MAKE SURE YOU REMOVE THE BLOCKING PLUG in the REAR of the 3.4 PASSENGER SIDE HEAD. You'll see it!
THAT IS WHERE the 2.8 Coolant sensor resides from the 2.8 engine.
YA can get around it, but......
Insert 2.8/3.4 creation under hood.
Plug in the ORIGINAL VEHICLE wiring harness.
Turn key & go have fun!
Yes, it is that simple.
DETAILS make the project work right, the first time!
NO this doesn't happen overnight.
Again, details!
Yes, end result looks exactly like what ya started with! A 1986 2.8!
Boring until ya hit the go pedal!

KED85

I forgot...
On the 3.4 ya keep the 3.4 BALANCER & FLEXPLATE.
On the 3.4 balancer, go get a balancer repair sleeve.
Four Bucks.
Ask for a 2.8 balancer sleeve. It fits.
Cheap insurance to keep a leak away, also.

87CamaroMan

Hello Again. I had my Mom call the junk yard today (I was at work) and tell them to pull the 3.4lt that I'd be in on Saturday to get it. Well, My Mom started to ask questions and the guy at the yard told her that it won't work I need a 3.4 Computer, Radiator and Y-Pipe to make it work (I think he is just blowing smoke to get more $$$)... I called a GM dealer and asked one of there mechanics about it he only had one answer he said if I where to use the 3.4 Intake I would need a new Computer, But if I use the 2.8 intake it would work he's not sure on the radiator or y-pipe. Can you guys help me out. My Mom is lending me the money for this till I get paid. And if I am not 100% sure about this she isn't gonna lend me the money. It would only delay me about 2wks till I get paid but its my only car...

The 3.4 is comming outta 1995 Firebird
And I have a 1987 Camaro 2.8

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Hes blowing smoke up yalls hole. However, if hes willing to sell the exhaust y-pipe cheap, grab it. I belive ked85 knows how to make it work. But he wont tell me .

Do not pay for an ecm. Waste of money for your swap.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

do a search on all our posts. 3 active swappers w/the auto, at least one manual swap, if you need to, e-mail one of us & let let your mom talk to us.

Dale, if you need that black plate off the tb, It's available.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I need the plastic cover that goes over it project. Do you have that?? PM me if you do please.

KED85

Please, let us guide you to street back n road status.
Ya only need teh engine as a fully dressed long block.
IF ya wanna add a new radiator, MAKE IT FIT YOUR 3rd Gen chassis (which means go find a V8 3rd Gen radiator-it's larger & works perect!!!-HONEST!)
I pick them up used from wrecking yards at $30 a pop!!
Again, find the thread I wrote on this swap & stick to the K.I.S.S. formula.
You won't go wrong!
To busy to read all past response or what I wrote (I'm reconstructing a house in 100* plus temps right now).
Stick to known factor, get it in & running thn hop up after you're bored (PS YA WON'T BE!!)
I did my swap over two CA smog tests (about 2+ yrs. now!) & about 10K plus miles so far. Not a single failure due to way I did & wrote swap thread!
So solid a ride my Wife tools around with my 2 year old Son.
20+ MPG in town & close to 30 on highway
KEEP IT SIMPLE

Again the end results looks EXACTLY like the way ya first opened hood to start swap. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YA STRIVE FOR IN THIS SWAP!!
See my pic again
That's all 1985 stuff on a 1995 3.4 mill.
WITH only new/used wrecking yard radiator & I run full blast R12 AC in 100* plus temps with no overheating (again a V8 radiator from 3rd gen is the ticket ALONG WITH all functional & installed body panels for max air flow).
WNEH IN DOUBT reread the swap boogie thread.
FOLLOW IT it's there for ya help!
I gotta go to work on the on house I bought to fix for selling.
KEEP AT IT you'll do great!

87CamaroMan

Hello,
I got it today. When I ordered it they told me it wouldn't have any of the accesories,intake etc. but It has just about everything but the Alternator, P/S pump and compressor... This is gonna make it so much cheaper to do... Well, I am gonna go try to tackle this project now. If I run into any problems, I'll be back to ask questions... Oh and what would be a good grade of oil to run in it, I was thinking something like 10w 40. I can't read the cap. All I can make out is "w." With much hope and luck I will have it running tomorrow night... Thanks Again for all of the help... I have been taking pics of this the whole time, so far so when I am done it can let you guys see.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

5W-30, and good luck w/the swap

87CamaroMan

I have a problem. The morons at the j-yard forgot to leave the flexplate on the damn motor, So I don;t have it. and can't get it for a while. Is there anyway I can use the flexplate from my 2.8, till I can get the 3.4 one, I am using the original 700-r4 tranny.

KED85

NO
I HEARD YA COULD BUT
Slip in the motor & hook up lots of stuff.
Ya still have to install the NEW rear main seal.
IT'S THERE
IT'S IN YOUR HANDS
IT FAILS DO IT NOW!
Cheap insurance against a leak
DETAILS MAKE this swap go many many miles of trouble free fun!
Have ya gotten the balancer snout repair sleeve yet? Use a "2.8" & it's perfect.
Really await arrival of the proper 3.4 flex plate.
I have 3, 2.8 flexplates for FREE! YOU pay shipping!
This is NOT an overnight swap or repair job.
I have over 10,000 miles of no leaks due to replacing lots of gaskets. Well, after I SCREWED UP ON THE 2.8->3.4 oil filter housing gasket swap part I now have zero leaks!!

87CamaroMan

Hello Again. I got most of the work done... The guy who was supposed to lend me an Engine hoist can't get it, its locked in his dads garage and there in VA for a few wks... So I asked my neighbor he is gonna let me us his I just have to go get it... Hopefully I don't have any more setbacks, and can have this finished by tomorrow night.


Oh and I found out the only difference between the 2.8 and 3.4 Flexplate is the 2.8 has weights on it. So I am gonna call the yard tomorrow and rip them a new one if they don't send it to me. (since I like 2hrs away from it.)... And it was there error for not leaving it on the engine... I specifically told them I needed it.

Oh and what senser where you talking about in the back or the head... I didn't see one anywhere.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

We believe you have some sort of coolent sensor in the right rear of your head on your 2.8l. The 3.4l head has a plug in it. you will painfully need to remove the plug, so that you can install your sensor in it. Easier done out of car incase map/propane is needed for the removel of it.

87CamaroMan

Oh I almost forgot.. I didn't realize I have to change sensor hook ups from one engine to the other... Theres a few I am confused about.. in the front of the motor beside where the thermostat goes.. on the 2.8 there are 2 hook ups and only one on the 3.4... and by the Timing chain cover there is another that is on a wire... My camera's batteries died... So when I get some tomorrow. I'll take pics and show you.

KED85

See the pic. Look at cylinder head & see the "hole" by black engine removal part on cylinder head....
That's it. Fan sensor location for the 2.8 set up.
Remove by TORCH heat (CHERRY RED) & twist. This takes about 1/2 to one hour to do!
The tool is available at Matco or Snap on, it's a reverse oil block plug.
Wires by 3.4 timing chain cover, leave ALONE!
I just make mine tidy & tuck under something.
It will NOT LEAK IF YA DO NOT DISTURB IT.
Mine has not over 10,000 miles.
This is some sensor on the 3.4 cam for the 3.4 computer.
The intake questionis moot, since you are swapping the 3.4 induction for the 2.8 induction system, YET you install the 3.4 injectors into the 2.8 fuel rail!
Keep re reading my swap thread for many details and answers.
You are doing a "custom" swap, remember that!!

87CamaroMan

OK... I think I am ready now. The yard overnighted the flexplate to me. I finally got a cherry picker. But I looked all over the 3.4 passenger side head and didn't find anything plugged up. Only a bracket... Please help. If someone has a pic of where its at it would help me alot. or a diagram of some sort....

Project: 85 2.8 bird

It looks like a pipe plug, will most likely have a hex depression, or a square end....like putting the end of an extension in it to turn. THis particular item will be a bytch to remove, hence my aftermarket fan switch/relay.

87CamaroMan

So its a fan switch sensor... I wasn't sure if it was coolant or fan. Can't I just put it on a switch or always on when the car is on... I don;t have a torch. thats the main problem. I hear of every one saying they had to put a torch to it to get it off. I'll 1st try to get it out. before I take any other actions..

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I tried to drill mine out, but ended up filling the hole w/some jb weld.

**********REMEBER*************

Test out the fan relay setup if you do like I did. I'm gonna have to get out the DVM & test to see how many amps the fan sucks up & get a fuse for it, or jsut hard wire it.

One good thing about my setup, is that, since I have the A/C delete option, w/the pressure switch jumpered, I can just put the climate control on A/C & the radiator fan w/come on. Will be nifty at the track And yes, it will also come on at whatever temp it's set too, or if you you get an adjustable one.

87CamaroMan

Thats very creative hooking up to the climate contol... never thought of that... I am also thinking of bolting a fan to the water pump pully and and just leave it at that.. it would always be on...

KED85

Do not bypass what GM has designed (an electic fan set up).
Find a local plumber or a local welder or the Snap On or Matco guy.
Four options plus one conversion idea.
DO NOT deviate from electric fan

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I didn't plan it that way, just seemed to happen. Yeah, If you can, stick w/what's already there. My procedure was a "fix"

87CamaroMan

Ok I went out and looked again. I found it this time I was looking at the back of the head not the corner. What I think I am gonna do is take one of my old Ratchet extensions and file it down to fit and spray the $hit outta it with wd-40, and use a cheater bar/breaker bar.. And with much hope I might be able to get it.

KED85

Quite Honestly,
DO as suggested.
That way you will obtain plug removal.
Phone a local garage & ask them for guy who sells them special tools.
Or ask a plumber or welder to visit & pay for that service.
Serious.
Best option is get the right tool & have at it.
May get lucky with your muscles.
Remember, that plug has been rusted & heat cycled for a long time.
Last one took me two people & 45 minutes. Plumber & his torch tank.
Previous was quicker due to intensity of the flame.
Bigger torch tank!
Still a two person project.
Serious, cherry red/white hot.
Vise Grips & a screwdriver to jamb into the recessed plug and GLOVES for heat!
GM don't want a leak there so it's in quite tight.
It's the first project to conquer.
It's that important.
Rest is downhill, easy.

DO THIS with engine on ground, not on engine stand.
I placed engine in a tire not mounted on a wheel. Worked perfect, engine didn't move.

redraif

Ked
Joe and I are planning the 3.4 short block swap for my 87 2.8L. The idiots at the dealer back in the day did not balance my short block when they rebuilt it. Anyway I think this is robbing power and rather then fool around we thought...3.4 short block swap! I would swap all the 2.8 stuff over...its new and ported...I have 19lb injectors...

You say retain the 3.4 flex plate and balancer. Why retain the 3.4 balancer? Is it for simplicity, or are the 2 parts different? Just curious. We just put a new one on my 2.8 not 3000 miles ago...I hoped it would swap with the rest of the stuff.

The 3.4 heads, are they better then the 2.8 heads, or are they same thing? I ported my 2.8 heads, so I hope they are good enough.

Hey thanks! I guess in the next few monthes I will be joining the 3.4 ranks!

KED85

The 3.4 BALANCER & 3.4 FLEXPLATE are matching items.
Due to 3.4 engine balancing tricks this is the ONLY way to go.
Your new 2.8 balancer can be sold easily.
3.4 heads are BETTER DUE TO the DUAL SPINGS for the valves. Think Small Block Chevy Z-28/LT-1 heads!
The meat in valve spring pocket is larger.
Beyond that detail, MPFI & 3.4 heads are identical.
YOU CANNOT NOT adequatly upgrade the 2.8 heads.
You will hit coolant passages.
SO logic dictates you just buy a used running long block & start swapping over.
PLUS with the 3.4 long block you get the aggressive Crane 2030 Cam, factory stock!
It's really "that simple!" but yes detailed.
PLUS with the 3.4 you get the proper injectors to install on the 2.8/3.1 MPFI original vehicle fuel rail.
Keep asking, but in the beginning & end, keep the mission simple (all ya doing is "redressing" a 60* long block with your original vehicle induction/ignition system and original oil pan & T chain cover), THEN upgrade after it's installed and running.
PS Be on the lookout for Street Legal Headers for our 3rd Gen V-6 rides from PaceSetter Exhaust! Could be on market by Winter time.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

redraif. Your 2.8l is balanced via the flywheel and balancer. The 3.4l you will be purchasing is balanced inside. So you have to use the 3.1 or 3.4l equipment.

If you ported the 2.8l heads yourself, spend the time and do them again on the 3.4l. If you have to pay. Thats up to you.


I think once I get a good transmission, and a new muffler on my 3.4l, I will enjoy it alot. Already gets better mpg, more power then my old 2.8l TBI.