F585

I'm seriously thinking about this I have the $$$ but is it worth it? will my motor be ok? it has 52k miles on it or do I have to rebuild?

Doward

There is no way I'd use that. Even with an alarm, it's way too easy to ****** that turbo out of there

F585

My Camaro isn't my daily driver that's why my miles are so low I just drive it for fun and cruising and I'll have it in my garage so that's not a problem.

Gumby

miles don't really matter as long as it runs well. Id throw one on my 200,000+ 2.8 if I had the spare change.

Course someone might wanna look into making a turbo club for it.
a smart oil line that would know if it was cut or unhooked.



Matt

F585

Well, I got two choices
1 go turbo on my 85 Camaro or
2 swap a 3.4 in my RS
I'll have to think about this.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

if there is no load on the engine the turbo will not spool..the motor needs load to create boost. That's why I laugh at people that tell me to put a T-56 behind me turbo 3.8 in the GTA...it's more than just load but that's the jist of it

SSC

Well what you guys arent seeing is your actually getting more force with this setup then a stand alone single manifold turbo. This setup runs out the back of the car You get feed by both exhuast banks!!! LAG??? You would have less lag with the system then others that are right on top the engine. If I could induct this Id be all over it.

Doward

Who actually does a single manifold turbo (outside an inline motor)? I mean, jeez... even my turbo setup is using both banks!

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I beg to differ on that, while there might not be much "lag" on that setup you move that turbo where it's SUPPOSE to be it'll spool up quicker....

That setup is cool and all...points to them for designing something unique...I'll stick with a system that's proven to work

Gumby

Again if they are getting performance on a LT1 there is not way it will not work out great on a tiny V6??? If you read the whole thread 7-8 pages now. they answer all those questions and more. It is not your common turbo, it was made for it application and area. Stick a regualr turbo back there and everything you can think of is true about lag n so forth.
Matt

SSC

I read the whole thing and thats why I think it is the best setup.
You guys need to read the thread completelty.

Gumby

SSC, it was a good read.

There isnt much love on this board.. Many poeple are just here to dis-agree for no other reason than to start a pissing contest when the facts are easily read.

Matt

Doward

*yawns* Can I have my thread back for a moment guys? (j/k - tons of turbo info, in this one thread!)

I've got Wed/Thur and Sat/Sun off from work. Goal - to have the turbo mounted by next Monday. Mandrel bends arrive Tuesday. Here's hoping. :hail:

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you know, i was thinking, what if you just skipped all of that computer crap and you put a twin turbo 60* v-6 together with a no bs blow-through carb setup. do away with the computer, put a sheetmetal intake with a 450-600cfm holley four barrell. anyone thought about that?

rx7speed

well you can build boost without a load

maybe not much but a little

had a friend with a stock turbo on a rx7 and he was boosting about 5-6 psi or so at least with the car in gear clutch pushed in and revving it


but then again rotary motors carry a lot more exhuast energy then a piston motor

rx7speed

biggest problem I see with that is he says the gas cools down and becomes more dense making it more efficient


I would think even though the gas is more dense it has less velocity

so they put a smaller housing in there though


the velocity still wouldn't be that great I don't think


then comes pressure
with that much exhuast pipe to build pressure in it would take longer then it would on a close up manifold


and then with a close up turbo you have more room after the turbo to make a low pressure zone to help suck even more exhuat gas out after the turbo to make for even more boost and more efficient boost


least my take on it

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

rotory engines must be different then because there is no way you're gonna build boost just by revving it.

Doward

Depends. If you've got a small enough turbo, you can build boost by just revving it. You still have exhaust gases when you freewheel the motor, guys.

Lee7

if you knew how a piston engine works, and how a turbo works, you would realise that anytime the engine is running, it is expelling gas, thus spinning the turbine on the turbo, thus creating boost. (well maybe not at idle or low rpms, but the turbo is still spinning, just not fast enough to produce boost.)

An engine is basically an air pump, whatever gas goes in, goes right back out. It doesnt matter if there is load on the engine or not, the air is still going to be pumping.

If an engine in gear is running at 4500 rpm and moving 280 cfm out, it will move the same ammount of air no matter if its in gear or not. This air will spin the turbo, thus creating boost. The turbo has no clue whether the car is under load.

A turbo WILL make boost in neutral, it doesnt matter if its a rotary or piston, they are both air pumps, they will both be pumping air if they are running, no matter if they are under load or not.

My best freind has a Turbo TBird, he spins up his turbo all the time at lights.

Y2KFirehawk

If a picture is worth a 1000 words..... then I guess a movie is worth even more......

Despite this is a turbo Eclipse GSX you can clearly hear his turbo spooling up while the car is not even moving... Yes, it is a different car, but it's no different then any other engine with a turbo...

http://www.strongwelding.com/~jscher...gsx102202b.avi

F585

Dumb question but, can a turbocharged 2.8 handle nitrous?

SSC

Lost train of thought.................................:lala: You will never see as much boost in neutral compared to having a load on the engine. You might see 1-2 PSI but nothing more. The waset gate closes the exhuast outlet at ZERO vaccum, allowing pressure to travel to the engine, it comes back on as vacuum rises allowing the pressure to vent out the tail pipe. Its like a 4bbl vaccum secondary carb. You can wing it all you want in neutral but unless you have a load they aint going to open. Yes it does spin at all times but 90% of what flowing through it is going straight out the tail pipe.

Again, in the video the driver has controll over the wastegate thats why he is able to spool the turbo in neutral.

Lee7

i dont understand what you are trying to say...

the Blow Off Valve only opens when intake pressure (boost) reaches its preset amount. If you set your BOV to open up at 10PSI, it (if working right) should only open once intake pressure reaches 10psi.

The BOV does not know when the engine is under load or not, all it knows is how high the intake pressure is, and once it reaches a certain lvl, it should open up. The only perpose of the blow off valve is to prevent overboosting, nothing more.

I think you are getting your BOV's and Wastegates mixed up.

SSC

Yea I know, was just about to edit it again for the purest's.

I was trying to make it kinda of easy for people to understand. (long freaking day at work) The turbo setups my dad use to make went without blow off valves and only used wastegates. Same principle though. The waste gate is open under all but heavy loads. Poeple like in the video have controll over thier wastegate and run AM blowoff valves when pressure reaches max, thats why thier able to spool it up under a no load situation.

Forgive me while I edit.

Lee7

oh i see, trying to break it down for the non-turbo litterate folks.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

yahooo look at sig don't tell me how turbos work...

So tell me....if you're revving at 4500 in neutral and 4500 in third gear tell me you don't have the same boost....

Also...in turbo cars with sticks why do you lose boost when you press on the clutch, even if it's just for a split second? The load on the engine goes bye bye...maybe I was wrong about not being able to build boost in neutral...maybe with gay little super tiny turbos you can...

as far as spinning the turbo, duh..as soon as the engine is turned on it's spinning the turbo...does that mean it's making boost, UM NO! Spinning a turbo and creating boost are two TOTALLY different things...

Maybe it works on super small turbos, I don't know....if the turbo is that freakin small why even bother...

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

oh and not to sound like a dick but go post that theory of yours on the grand national boards and look at the responses you'd get

Lee7

You have no clue what you are talking about. It makes no difference if its a large turbo or a small turbo, they both operate on the same exact principle.

An engine running at a givin RPM in neutral, would move the same amount of air as the same engine running at the same RPM in park, reverse, or drive.

In cars with sticks, you dont lose boost when you press the clutch, you lose boost WHEN YOU LET OFF THE GAS. (you press both at the same time)

And spinning the turbo = making boost. It depends on how fast the turbo is spinning for you to actually notice the boost. When the turbo is spinning slowly, it is still moving air, its just moving very little, so you dont even notice it.

Like i said before, the turbo has absolutly no clue on how much load is on the engine, there is NOTHING hooked up to the turbo that tells it if the car is in gear or not. The turbo will spin the same, regardless of if its in gear or not.

Thats like saying that if you were towing a boat on the back of a turbo diesel, the turbo would make more boost.

And, BTW, on an automatic tranny, there is always a load on the engine, its called the torque converter.

socialdeviant

Ok... seems some do not know the function of the turbo...


They work off exhaust gass pulses created by a running engine.

They enter the turbine section of the turbo that is connected to the inlet side.
The faster the turbine spins, the faster the intake spins, pulling in more air.
This increase in air is refered to as Boost, or positive manifold pressure.

The first things you take into consideration is the condition of the engine you want to boost(turbo).
After making sure the engine can handle it, you go over your fuel system. You go lean, you burn up pistons. Period.

Oj, your good so far huh? now to choose the turbo...
You can roughly 3estimate that the intake charge will be reduced by 30-50% by the burning process. You want to look at "flow maps" of turbos that work within that flow pattern.
You really do not want to go under 75% in the midrange of your cars exhaust flow pattern. Going under high RPM situations, things can get dicey in the % of the flow of the turbo, but as long as you don't repeatedly/or stay there for a long time, your ok.

As far as needing a new chip? maybe/maybe not depends on how you do things. You can stay close to stock chip with a GN-X MAP sensor, a 1:1 FMU, and larger injectors. I have a page that is used to calaulate the CC/Lb Hr rating for a HP number, but I need to find it again... I will post it here when I do.

In MPI situations, you want a BOV, to expell "excess" boost (in MAF systems, you want a By-pass system- but thats another discussion) when the Throttle body Butterfly is closed, like when you shift gears in a manual. This also eliminates compressor stall in the turbo, which will turn the turbo into a grenade eventually.

You also want a turbo timer. This will allow the turbo to "cool off" after a long drive, cruise. If you drag it, on the way back to the pits, please, by all means in first rev to around 2500 in 1st. This will keep the oil PSI up, and the engine load down, allowing the turbo to cool down.

Intercoolers are a no brainer to install, and yes you want one.

I am off to try to find that page now.

socialdeviant

Actually the turbo does have something to measure load, it's called a wastegate.
And technically, the boost spikes when you release the gas, then it drops as it engine derevs. So...

Gumby

Im waiting for someone to say " why turbo a V6 man, put a V8 in it"

Matt

Lee7

wastegates do not measure load.

the only thing wastegates do is bypass the turbine when the turbo starts spinning too fast and overboosting. Much like a BOV, exept on the exaust side.

The wastegate is in no way connected to the engine, or connected to anything that can measuse engine load, and the wastegate itself does not measure engine load.

85f-bird

it seems for the most part that htose people have hushed down a bit, not quite like the old days of thirdgen. LOL. although, i'm kinda on that page w/ them, but at the same time would like to see this turbo 6 done, and if the horsepower gains are worth it for the price then i could see others doing it....only thing is, the only way it'll be worth it to turbo the six is if it's not in a kit form, it'd have to be independent, cause for 2.5-3k anyone could buy a 350 chevy and a turbo 350 and just say...."**** on it"

Doward

*sighs* Lee7, tell me. Have you ever heard of a wastegate that wasn't hooked to a vacuum source? Ever wonder why that is?

At WOT, under full load, you have NO vacuum in a N/A engine. That is full load. The wastegate is shut, until you have enough positive pressure to overcome the spring, and open the wastegate. So yeah, the wastegate DOES indeed measure load.

If what I think I'm hearing is true, that an engine pulls the same amount of air through it whether under load, or in neutral, then why do speed density systems use a MAP sensor? I mean, why not just program 'this much fuel for this rpm'. It won't work. Different amounts of air flow. But I'm too tired (just got off work) for this discussion. I'm building the turbo, my bends come in tomorrow, and I should have her in by Sunday. We'll see

Gumby

Keep the pics and updates coming D. Yu may just switch the question around and everyone might be saying why a V8 get a 2.8

Matt

F585

First time I heared that

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

So Lee, please tell me....the same amount of air, the same velocity of the air flow and the same amount of fuel is going through the engine at 2500 rpms in nuetral as 2500 rpms in say..2nd gear? The same volumn of exhaust gasses are passing through the turbo in the scenario I just mentioned above? if you think that's true you're truely pathetic.



WRONG! SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WRONG dude. I will say it again....go rev ANY turbo car to 4K in neutral and see the boost reading(if any...or see if it's still pulling vacumn) then go take it to 4K in 1st gear and tell me what you see, but only do it half throttle. THEN take it WOT up to 4K and tell me how much boost you have. You're gonna sit there at tell me that the engine is moving the same amount of air in all 3 cases? You're gonna sit there and tell me that the boost levels will all be the same? BWHAHAHAHAHHAH

Same principle perhaps..

So, let's take a GN motor.....one we'll have the stock T3 turbo and the stock .63 or 69 housing on it and on another motor we'll have a TE60 wtih a .82 housing on it. Both setups are exactly the same...by your theory both would start giving the engine boost at the same rate...lol...I'll let you figure out why that's not even close to being right



So tell me, how is the turbo creating boost if the engine is still pulling vacumn? Just because the turbo is spinning doesn't mean it's creating "boost"

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

correct, the wastegate opens up after your desired boost setting is reached

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

ding ding ding, we have a winner....at least you understand

TechSmurf

Your concept holds water, flawlessly, except for a few minor problems..

One, turbo impeller assemblies must overcome inertia to spool. Revving at a light doesn't yield the same amount of time for the turbo to reach full potential

Two, did you know your throttle *restricts* airflow? That means, in neutral, at 4500 rpm, you *aren't* moving 280 cfm of air! WOW! (Unless you're at WOT with a 4500 rpm rev limiter.. but even this is inaccurate due to the missing combustion cycles)

Three, if you're in neutral at WOT, while yes, it will spool, and yes, you will produce the same amount of boost you would at WOT under load given time for the turbo to spool, you probably just HORRIBLY over-revved your motor. Oh. Look. It's dead.

Wtf does this have to do with the projects anyway? This is theory. We're not here to argue theory. We're here to *do* something. It's turning into a great big argument between "Those who know how turbos work" and "Those who are blindly convinced they know how turbos work" ... Those of us who know can't be told different. We know. Those who wish they knew can't be told different, because they're probably 15 and know *everything*, including quantum physics, much less turbos. So let's just get back to business, shall we?

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

it's just a friendly debate...no harm in that

I just don't want people spreading information that isn't correct that's all..

Gumby

Don't forget "Hyperdimensional physics"

http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html

How does a planets [Saturn, Uranus and Neptune] without internal nuclear fusion give off more energy than it recieves form the sun / other out sides sources???

They did not prove it to be real on good morning america by making 1.5 billion years pass by in 1.75 hours???

http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper2a.html

I wonder if Julius Sudermiller is on.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

ok now THAT is off topic :sillylol:

Doward

On one hand, this is all totally amusing. On another hand, I'm going to have to condense this thread, when I finish the turbo project, to wade through all the non-turbo-project stuff.

Lee7 isn't 15. I believe he said he's 18. What difference does that make? I'm 20. Big deal. I can't *legally* drink alcohol, does that make me a kid, and a know-nothing? I don't think so. I've been working on cars most of my life (doing brake jobs @ 7 years old!) so I like to think I know something of them.

Lee7, you can't look at computer models for everything in an engine. It's an inherent flaw in the programming - it was done by a human. It's just not accurate - what that dyno spits out, and what will actually happen with the engine will be two different things.

To be very blunt, we, as humans, are just too narrowminded stupid to get every single variable programmed into the computer. Does Dyno2000 ask you for barametric pressure, relative humidity, air temperature outside the vehicle, temperature of the intake plenum? Believe me, those will all have noticable impacts on your HP production....

What sounds good on paper rarely works out that way, because we don't get every single variable down. It's inaccurate, plain and simple.

Gumby, I found that read on 'hyperdimensional physics' absolutely fascinating. Reminded me somewhat of the hyperbolic geometry report I did in 8th grade (current models tend to believe that the universe isn't flat, but curved hyperbolically) Pretty cool stuff.

Y2KFirehawk

All I got to say is that I am definately learning a WHOLE lot reading this tread!!! :hail:

rx7speed

they are a little different with the exhuast gasses
but the rotary has a VERY strong exhuast pulse
you don't have valvles,valve bosses pesky turns after the valve or anything like that. and then to top it off the rotary motor goes from full closed to full open almost instantly
and the exhuast gas goes STRAIGHT out to the turbo which sits less then a foot away


but I'm sure if you put a turbo on a piston motor that was small enough it might build a little at least

rx7speed

um if you car is running at 4500rpms under load it is going to be pushing more air then it would at idle

think of this
at 4500rpms in 4th gear for an auto 5th for a 5 speed vs sitting still at 4500rpms in nutrual.... which one is pumping more air?
need more power to go up that hill so you are going to be using more throttle... more throttle means air... more air means more exhuast and more exhuast means more spooling of the turbo

and your the one that called me a retard

Doward

For anyone that tried to read that Hyperdimensional page, let me condense it quickly (and yes, very messily)

"Hey guys... you know how we always thought the sun sorta run EVERYTHING? Turns out the planets DO have some effect!" and by going into those previously unused variables, we've found some fascinating things out....

The average human simply can't cope what that many variables interacting at once. 2-3 maybe. 4-6 is pushing it. Thousands? That's beyond the scope of 99% of the people out there.

rx7speed

it does make a difference.
smalle turbos have less mass in the compressor and exhuast turbine making them easier to spin which would require less pressure and exhuast to spin them.
also with a smaller turbo you get more velocity going through the turbo itself which in turn would would put more force on the exhuast turbine to spin it faster
spinning the turbo assembly faster can creat more boost

read the post of mine right before this

and again read above post of mine befre this post

it's not called boosting untill you hit air pressure greater then atmospheric (1 bar) but once you hit .0000001 pounds of boost above 1 bar then you are considered boosting... though guess you would have a hard time knowing when you hit that little amount so lets just say 1 psi untill that point you have less the atmospheric pressure inside your intake system (which is considered vacuume even though it really isn't)

once again read the previous post of mine again


you prolly wouldn't make more boost
that is the function of the wastegate. it regulates the boost to prevent you from going over a specific amount.
but I'm sure as hell your going to make your boost a lot quicker being the motor is working harder to pull the extra load bringing about more air into the system for the same rpm range

the torque converter doesn't put a lot of load on the motor in park/nutrual but put the car in gear and hold the brakes you have a lot more load

here is a way for you to understand load on a motor since it sounds as though you have an automatic transmission....
rev you car up to 4500rpms in park.... ok remember how much throttle you used... prollly just barely had it cracked open I assume

now put the car in drive hold the brake and try to do the same thing
first IF you hit 4500rpms you doing good
second how much MORE throttle are you using to get it to hold it there

that more throttle once again is brining in more air then you would bring in under no load that more air is going to hit the turbine with more force bringing up boost quicker


please if you are going to come here unless you learn more about cars drop the attitude at the door.
your rolling eyes and calling people retards like you did with me and everything else you are doing doesn't show anything other then letting people think that you are someone not worth their time.
no offence to you but it seems as though you have a lot to learn about cars.... turbos for sure yet you have this never ending attitude to every post as though I'm cocky and know all

please drop it

rx7speed

why waste your time with a turbo when you can easily drop a v8 in there for less money

so ok I took care of that part