AM91Camaro_RS

hey Lee7, if you're putting a new crank in your motor anyways...why not put a 3.1 crank in it. remember, "there's no replacement for displacement!" And I wish you luck on trying to get 400-500 hp out of a 60* v6.

Doward, don't give up on the turbo! i want to see it done.

Nixon1

The stroker crank...hmm....wonder how it would do on that. I'd rather keep it a 2.8 though....because of the revs. 2.8's are rev happier.....and so are turbos! Which is how the import boys blow their motors! Tacking the sucker out, piling on the rpms and boost...trying to beat someone cause their car doesnt quite have the ***** to pull ahead...

Lee7

Im not going for peak power anymore, i am going for the perfect combination of torque and HP.

Im trying to get solid power all the way up until 6500 RPM, i dont want no super high 8k reving engine that just creates more strain on an already strained engine.

Right now i have 440hp at 6500rpm, and 431 ft/lbs of torque @ 4500rpm with 20 psi of boost, of course i would not run this high of boost for everyday driving, for everyday driving it would probably be around 10psi (or less, you dont really need 350hp for everyday driving lol), which would be around 350hp. But when needed, it would be great to be able to increase the boost to 20psi IF THE BLOCK CAN TAKE IT. If the block cant take 450hp+ then i would just settle for whatever i can do safely.

If i wanted to make peak HP, it would have to rev to at least 7k, and i would have to sacrafice alot of torque. In otherwords, its just not worth it.

With the right parts, the 2.8L is THEORETICALLY capable of 500hp+ without N20. Its just the block probably cannot handle 500hp. This would be up to the end user to determine what the block can handle. And ulitmatly, it will be the block that determins what max power will be.

Hell, it might even come to be that the blocks can only handle 275 hp. Dowers setup will more than likely do this, and so would mine. Only his setup would be way cheaper than mine, and all the money and time would have been wasted by the fact that te blocks simply are not strong enough.

But i am pretty conifdent that the block will at least handle 350hp, and if this is so... 350hp is still alot for a street engine, and is more than most Small Block V8's on the road today are pumping out.

Doward

Actually, you tend to blow your head by having too much boost, and not enough cylinder bleed off - too little overlap for the amount of boost you run.

Lee, look. If you really want to argue this out, PM me. I'm not letting my thread get hijacked. 600+ hp dsm, at what, 28 psi?

Do you have any idea what kind of power my setup would make with 28 psi? When I upgrade, I'm going 3.1 stroker, and 8:1 cr. 28 psi on 110 race gas will produce in the neighborhood of 550 hp. If I can open the exhaust, get the fuel needed in, and do a full race-quality port job, 600-650 won't be out of the question.

I know of at least one 2.8 block running... ah, you know what, I'll just end this here. I'm not even going to bother giving you that info, but look up the ONE twin turbo 2.8 that's been built. I'm not going to justify my cam selection to you, or anyone. It'll work. It'll work well.

*UPDATE* Rich emailed me! Injectors are going in to him either tomorrow, or Monday, depending on when he says send 'em in! Ordering the exhaust tomorrow... just had to order a new distributor/cap/rotor/ignition module/carb rebuild kit ($140 total) for the g/f's '74 Ford Maverick I6 250 - the ignition setup is an HEI from a '79 Ford Fairmont I6 200 - gotta get that Mav off points!

Lee7

Where are you finding 8.1:1 compression pistons? (or heads)

This would be great if i could find some of those, but i have looked everywhere. The only thing i can think of doing is getting V8 pistons (if they work on our v6's?)

Lets just get over the fact that your cam profile isnt very well suited for forced induction. You will figure it out for yourself when you get it all installed and you have turbo lag like hell. :P

My suggestion is to focus on how to make BOTH of our setups better, yet different.

If you want to share info, i can be available at leeleatherwood@hotmail.com (MSN) or legomywenis (AIM)

I want your setup to succeed as much as i want mine to succeed, i am going to need someobdy to race when this is all done. I will be eating 350 TPI's up all day long.

85f-bird

forget eating Tuned Ports, if you can make anywhere in the rough neighborhood of horsepower you're "hoping" to make, then you'll be eating new T/A's, Corvettes, Grand Nats, and Running close to Viper country, and those slow lil' 390HP Mustang Cobras would be disapppearing in the rear view also. But i still think itd' be a lil' scary on our motors, i mean when lingefelter did his twin turbo vette he reached 650hp and couldn't keep the massive tires planted,car never broke into the 9's cause of traction issues, think it ran mid 10's. So, when a professional modifier w/ much more money than any of us have (all of us together most likely) and after placing twin turbochargers onto LS1 v8 engine, changing cam profiles etc, and rebuilding the motor for "optimal performance" is only pulling 650 hp (reliably) then i have to think that a 2.8L v6 would destroy itself well before it reached that line. And given our car's weight advantage, a 250hp car , that could get say 230 or so to the ground, say 215, that would still get you planted into the 14's probably high 13's if ya get rid of that open differential.

mike1986fyrbird

Any bets on how long Lee's magical 400hp is gonna last on the stock transmission?

85f-bird

haha, didn't even think of that...if he rebuilds the motor to stock specs that tranny will be gone about a month later, so i'm going to have to go with ummm, a ride to the grocery store with your grandmother driving, right after that, it'll be time for a rebuild. P.S. how good was the engine/tranny combo that came in that $100 car? Just out of curiousity, and thinking that when karl and every other 3.4L swap was completed, transmissions were next to need a fixin and not to mention my new 2.8L ended up costing me 700bux to have the ole 700r4 overhauled, but nothing quite like a vette servo, shift kt and a better boost valve to keep the shifts a shiftin'.

Nixon1

Have you looked at stats for a Lingenfelter TT vette recently? I'm talking the 2002....twin turbo 427 aluminum block. They got it to run 9.25 at 150.....then, after some "tweaking" a little less than a year later, it ran around 8.95 at like 152 I think. This is on a 4 speed automatic tranny...

Nixon1

Ah..here we go...from Lingenfelter.com...this is in an article about John Lingenfelter's condition (semi-comatose...poor guy...)..

"Last week the LPE team produced and tested a (Street Legal) 2002 Lingenfelter Corvette 427 Twin Turbo that went 8.95 seconds and 153 MPH in the quarter mile. The Lingenfelter tradition goes on. John would have it no other way. "

85f-bird

so true nixon, it's sad to hear his condition. coulda sworn at first the car was a simple LS1 TT, and then i remmeber him building the 427 SB which was pretty sweet, but gave less power than the twin turbo version, so was it a later version where he TT'd the 427? was probably an old episode before he had donework with a 427 turbo, hehe, 8-second cars are fun.

AM91Camaro_RS

my 3.1 is extremely rev happy! i have the built motor but stock tranny and stock open, 3.23 rear end. but, even with 235/60/15s on the back, if i am stopped on a dry road and i floor it.....the rpms literally go straight to 6000 and sit there til i get to about 40 mph. you can feel the rear end wiggle a little bit right before the tires hook.

Nixon1

Yeah, the old car was a TT LS1. It had somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 horses. The 427 TT has in the low/mid 700 hp range.

Do a search for the lingenfelter vette on Kazaa under videos. I've got a video of a 5 or 6 speed, older Lingenfelter..probably the TT LS1....whooping the living **** out of a low 13 second DSM. You'd have to see it to believe me....but it's amazing. They're pulling next to the Vette..the vette guy lets himself fall a little behind..then slowly lurches up until right next to them, and SLIGHTLY ahead....GUNS it....and he's instantly like 3 car lengths ahead of them...in a SPLIT SECOND. Awesome video. They raced at a stoplight then. The DSM ripped him out of the hole (AWD will do that to ya!)...you could hear the guy in the Lingenfelter completely give up on first gear really quick cause he got no traction..so he shifts to second prematurely, pulls on them and blows past them like they were driving a minivan.

And AM....maybe yours was just better modified/in better tune than mine was! I didnt have a working tach..but my motor was not rev friendly. Made power way down low and jack crap 5000 and up. Course I had no tach..but guessing.... Anything that sounded like it was above 4000, and my motor sounded like it was ready to self destruct.

Doward

Actually, Nixon, that's NOT a Lingefelter 'vette. Whoever made that video thought it was... it's a 450hp vette tuned by another guy... Rodney, or Ricky, or some other one that starts with R... Also had a 100 shot on top of it!

Nixon1

And you know this how?? Lol... Wonder if he was using that nitrous shot blowing that guy's doors off or not.....seems doubtful....I wouldn't use nitrous for such a brief duration.....but who knows..

Doward

No, the guy hits the nitrous on the last run... that's how he caught up and flew past him!

I'll find the thread, hold on...
*EDIT*

Damn! It was on Supraforums, and I think LS1.com... the guy's son at school was getting all sorts of compliments -

"Dude.. that's your dad!" and all that. It's a modified vette, no doubt... do a search on LS1 - Supraforums updated the Kill Stories section, and its gone now

aaroedg

thats why theres 800hp+ 4bangers, not trying to start any fights but damn they can get alot of power outa those lil engines nowadays

Doward

800hp out of a super-modified high $$ 4 banger.

That's why we get 1600+ hp out of the same thing, in a V8.

aaroedg

very true but i guess what im trying to say is technology is a replacement for displacement now rather then years ago when there wasnt turbos and supers and nos and chips and fuel injection

mike1986fyrbird

General Motors made 1024Hp out of the 2.2L 'Ecotec' engine (same block as the 2003 j-bodies)

85f-bird

technology is the only replacement for displacement , boost also works .... LOL. But when it comes down to these old styled "muscle cars" (ours included, even though we're technically sports cars) the biggest bang comes from torque, and that's what v8's naturally have tons of, and torque tends to be directly related to displacement. So while putting in a 500hp honda 4 cylinder would make the car much faster than it is in it's current state, it still couldn't match the output of a 500hp chevy crate motor that's pumping 600 lbs of torque to the pavement, and in that regard there is no replacement for displacement....so i guess both are truths, just depends on how you interpert the information.

TechSmurf

Look.. when top fuel drag rails replace their big blocks with vtecs and pick up a tenth, this argument will be settled. we in agreement here?

*EDIT*
Laugh.. after re-reading this I spontaneously tried to imagine a top fuel rail going down the track with a bumblebee exhaust note... augh

Doward

ROFLMAO!!!

bZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Ahh!! The bees!! They are after me!!

camaro_V6_Tuner

so what ever happened to the turbo chronicles? i wish we could hear more about that and less about some majical cam setup that (so far) only works on paper.
Cmon doward, i dunno about everyone else but i cant wait till u get that thing done!

TechSmurf

Well.. my weekend in tucson was unsuccessful.. I've got material for a throttle body spacer for my V8, but nothing for the 6... unless I wanted the flanges 1/2" thick. grr. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks.. still need that wastegate, anyway, so it's not like I'm in a hurry with the exhaust.. heck, I've still got to drop the transmission again to replace some seals and inspect the iffy synchros.

Doward

It's comin', it's comin'... Exhaust bends are on the way. Got to get the 10' stick still. Going to order the boost gauge and A Pillar Pod on Wednesday. Sending the injectors in tomorrow!

Life is good.

BOOST!!! :hail:

Project: 85 2.8 bird

time for some input from my "former turbo loser days" of early on

to keep exhaust temps & velocity good for "long" travel such as dowards, have the pipes coated, Jet-Hot for example.

to pump erl from erl poump to turbo, yes do it from T fitting. If turbo is lower than erl pan return, might need auxhilary pump for return line.

I still weant to see how much the pipes clear when done

Forward facing drivers header, will run into power steering pump, I've also looked into it.

Yes, no need for heades & it keeps egr in place.


I f some of these issues have already been covered, please ignore. Lots of reading to do for this. Just remember to keep tranny rebuild $$$$ in mind

Y2KFirehawk

I know what you're talkin' about! I read an article on that, big nasty turbo!!! hehe, I'm glad to see we're back to following Doward's Chronicles now

rx7speed

desktop dyno is a pile of crap
I remember a few times trying to run desktop dyno vs a normal build sheet it doesn't work

if I remember right according to desktop dyno the STOCK l98 has 400lf/ft of torque and almost 300 hp


and we all know that isn't true right?


desktop dyno I guess is ok (word used very loose) but still I wouldn't trust it


as far as backpressure with a turbo


you would see a lot more backpressure from a turbo then you would with headers and intake


generally on the scale of 1.5-2 times what your boost pressure is if I remember right

ie. 8 pounds of boost would be almost 16 pounds of pressure in the exhuast


and prolly a little more then that when you take into account the piping and mufflers

rx7speed

first I doubt 412 hp on 8 pounds of boost ( least I think that is what you said you are running)
a

and using desktop dyno to find the right cam I think isn't going to get you the right cam so to speak

it might get you close..... but.... desktop dyno sucks also desktop dyno looks at PEAK numbers
NOT avg

it might give you a cam that gives you 500hp butfor a VERY small times



with valve overlap it isn't always a good thing
but for a quick spooling turbo it might help out a little bit
and when the rpms kick up blow through isn't so bad at that point
then again not sure how high he wants his car reved up
and thats not that large of a cam
duration isn't that much
I have seem much bigger then that on turbo cars...

Doward

Guys, lets drop the mystic cam articles. Hell, the stock cam is going to be used until I port/polish the 2nd set of heads/exhaust manifolds. And guess what? They have to be BOUGHT first! :sillylol:

Stock cam gets used for now. No worries there. I'm aiming for a solid 200hp from teh engine, then 240hp with the following -

1.6 full roller rockers
MTC 5 cam (204/214, .420/.443 on a 112 lsa)
ported intake, plenum, heads, exhaust manifolds
Head rebuild with new Crane springs (i'll have .473" on the exhaust side - I'll be JUST under the .480" limit!)
Lots and lots and lots of timing/fuel adjustments in the PROM.

If I nail that 240 from the engine, I'll be sittin' pretty. With a good launch, that should dip me into the 13's.

rx7speed

if anything I would almost say his turbo lag would be fairly low

having a little blow by of the intake charge should ignite it inside the exhuast manifold creating a very high heat/pressure zone making the turbo spool better
also on the intake side with that over lap it would make it easier for the air to come into the motor and and so the turbo would spool quicker







also for someone who is researching there project so well you keep bringing of v8 pistons in a v6

are you aware of bore size?
your v6 if I remember right has a 3.5 inch bore


most SBC have a 4 inch bore
the smallest I have seen is something like a 3.6xx bore


please if you are going to talk about all this research... you should know a little more about your block as well


and i still don't think you going to reach your hp goal
28psi?

sorry but I laugh
possible 8-12 maybe
and at that maybe 250-300hp

rx7speed

your cars are not technically sports cars
they are sports coupes
sparts cars equal 2 seats, two doors and so on


also you need to think about gearing

in a little sports compact car putting out 500hp is prolly using some steep gears a swell
while most domestics that have the lets build it for torque are using something small for gears.... if they are using some steep gears that is because they are running slicks or some tall tires effectivly creating a lower gear.


but gearing produces torque
that is why the s2000 is able to compete with a lot of other cars that put out TWICE torque
it uses I think something like 4.56 gears STOCK
gearing makes for more leverage. more leverage means more actuall torque being applied
also if a honda is putting 500hp it is prolly putting close to 450-500lbs/ft out also

rx7speed

top fuel dragsters do not have much need for a vtec system

if I rmember right they have some centrifigal clutch that allows them to stay at one rpm while accelerating down the track

vtec is allowing someoen to run almost two cams
one really large one for high rpms
and for daily grandma driving a smaller cam

if you can't see the merrit in that then something is wrong


also the v-tech isn't what causes the bumble bee exhuast

Doward

Nah, I see 8 psi pushing 200hp. 220-240 if everything is in tune, and running nicely. 12psi might push you up to 280-300 hp. The most powerful 60º V6 I know of is pushing 260rwhp and 332 lbs/ft from a Turbo 3.4 in a '94 Bird pushing 7psi. Propelled the car to a 13.5. Fastest V6 Fbody I know of, in street trim!

I aim to beat that.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

so, you're going after Tiago huh? :rockon:

TechSmurf

Crap. I knew I was forgetting something when I planned to do a custom passenger's side manifold.. hmm.. oh well. Good thing I'm not in an emissions controlled area. :lala:

Guess I'll need to make provisions for that later.. and a piece of pipe to replace the turbo for emissions inspection should I move.

Doward

Sure... why not aim for the #1 spot?

Tho he's running that T4... LOADS more airflow than this 14b. I'm hoping around the beginning of next year, to upgrade to a 20g or bigger, with a 3.1 stroker swap (mainly to drop to 8.5:1 cr) for more boost.

89camaroRSV6

That was a DRM Vette (Doug Rippie Motors - IF im not wrong...)

It was a nasty video...the vette just killed the DSM in the acceleration from roll ...

89camaroRSV6

You are entirely right...ive seen some people in preludes even disabling the VTEC and just opting for the high end profile...if you can keep the car @ high RPMS then there is no problem..VTEC (VVTI or whatever the different companies call it) is only needed to compenaste for teh lower RPM torque.

Nixon1

Or lack thereof.

mike1986fyrbird

Damn.
I know where to get some nice forged pistons just like these.


I'll let anyone who wants to know where to get them. Except Lee. He can keep searching LOL.

$1200usd /// $900usd

mike1986fyrbird

Like many have said lee, building a v6 to support ur magical 500hp isnt gonna be cheap.. at all.
Forged rods are $1300canadian.

mike1986fyrbird

Doward, if ur looking for a Boost controller and a Air/fuel meter.
http://www.dawesdevices.com/

rx7speed

Vtec = honda
VVTI = toyota if I remember right

though I don't think the VVTI has two different cam profiles... not sure though, buy I think it just retards or advances the cam

don't quote me though


but why would they disable there small cam?
I would still think they need that for daily driving

or the initial launch

unless they swapped a cam in there that is non-vtech made for high rpms

Y2KFirehawk

If you want to read more....
http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...9/article.html

mike1986fyrbird - That website looks like they got some really kewl stuff for boosted cars! And those forged pistons look kick as$!!!

2_point8_boy

You're damn right they do...to bad nobody will see them. Hopfully no one will see them anyway.

:hail:doward:hail:

Doward

It's ok guys, I know a trick with the forged rods - I can get a set for under $400. The pistons, too, I know who makes 'em for the 3.1 (when I do the 3.1 stroker, I'm going forged pistons/rods)

Still have to worry about the crank though. Have to see how that works out. I'd like to do the 3.1 setup when I go 20g or bigger tho.

Update for today - Injectors are being mailed off!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Good work doward.

I always wondered, the 3.1l creates more compression then the 2.8l correct??

I always thought of using a 3.4l block, but putting 2.8l crank, and "over board" pistons in it. Would still be a 3.1l, but with lower compression correct??

I like tiagos car, have emailed him a few times, very nice guy, but his install looks like crap (IMO).

Them pistons look to nice to put in my engines, LOL.

AM91Camaro_RS

doward, i got a set of heads that i've already ported and polished. they do have the smaller valves in them though, which is the reason that they are not on my car right now. i was porting them for mine then i ran across a set with the bigger valves . i'll have to clean them up again but i can get pictures of them for you if you want and i can probably get them magnafluxed too.