82-T/A [Work]

Ok, this will be long... but please stick around..

basically, this is what I've done. The motor started out life as a 2.8 V6/60. I killed one of the main bearings when it overheated once really badly. I just recently had it rebuilt.

I purchased a 3.1 crank kit, .040 overbore hypertectic aluminum pistons, new valve job (3.4 cast iron heads), and a really high output cam. It's BARELY considered Computer Compatible.

In any case, I've got the motor COMPLETELY assembled with a set of 19 pound fuel injectors. (originally came with 15#, this is a Fiero)

So, like, I try to crank it.. and the first problem I have is that the starter is bad. It continues to crank on and on and on. I even take the key out of the ignition and it cranks until it dies. So that's one problem. I'm replacing that this weekend. The next problem of course though is that.. well, it still should have started.

I'm pretty sure I have the timing right, but how can I be sure?


I know I'm getting fuel, and I know I'm getting spark.

help.


Thanks,

Todd,
http://community.webshots.com/user/todd82ta
1997 Pontiac GrandAm SE
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE / WS6
1981 Pontiac TransAm WS6
1973 Volkswagen Bus 1.8

PimpRod92RS

First off I will tell you that I am not that knowledgeable when it comes to the FULL details of engines, but I can offer help to you for what its worth. My 3.1 would not start for a while after it's ignition modules kept dying. I finally replaced the whole distributor assembly and it's been flawless ever since. This is different from your case because your getting spark, whereas I wasnt, and your starter/ignition switch is messed up. You apparently have spark, which means that your ignition system is in working order. Is your ignition timed correctly? Might want to double check that even if you are sure its right (use a timing light), because it sounds like thats the problem. I believe that these engines are supposed to be stock timed at 10 degrees advance. If that isnt the problem, you may have a clog in your exhaust system somewhere. Perhaps even your intake is dirty? You said you were getting fuel, so that is also ruled out. I hope I was able to help you with your problem.

PimpRod92RS

By the way it seems like your ignition switch or starter solenoid is bad, not the actual starter. Although it may go bad due to the excessive heat produced by long crankings.

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Get a gauge and see what your fuel pressure is when you turn it on. Is your computer and everything completely connected? Is Your ECM fuse good (the single fuse that sits all by itself that's hidden near the purge canister)? If that's bad, there is no power to the ECM and therefore no injectors firing either. If that's the case, you will see pressure at the fuel rail but NO injector firing.

Hear any sounds when the engine cranks? Does it crank like it's out of time (it does sound different if it's cranking out of time)

82-T/A [Work]

Thanks guys,

Quick TransAm, I have not verified that the injectors are actually firing. That's quite possible that it's the problem. I can try to run the computer diagnostics to see if the computer is even doing anything. I didn't think to check that.

I dissasembled my old starter a while back before I decided to put it back in the car. I know the starter was quite worn out, so it's possible that it's actually gone bad. I just bought a new (remanufactured) one, so hopefully that will fix the problem of the starting. Once that's taken care of, then I can worry about everything else.


Thanks!

Nixon1

For the love of ***, don't actually get the car started if the starter continues to crank away even after key removal! It'll rip your flywheel/flexplate to shreds!

omarbreadbeek

u know mine did the same thing after it was rebuilt it kept cranking over.. twice and had to replace a new starter but it is probably your distributer i cranked mine over and had my friend keep turning the dist,, untill we got it started.. just try it a few times if your car keeps cranking over without shuting off make sure u can dissconnect the battery fast...

TomP

Nixon, wouldn't it just shred the starter? If the starter gear is already engaged with the flywheel, I think the engine would just spin the starter motor to a few hundred thousand RPM (gear reduction and all that)

Nixon1

Tom...you might be right...but what about when you turn the key with the engine already running and that terrible SCRAPE...wouldn't that burn the starter up, not strip flywheel teeth like it does? Unless I'm missing something here...

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

you have the firing order correct? (123456)

#1 is the front cylinder on the PASSENGER side, #2 is the front cylinder on driver side, etc. This is very different from the V8.

GhostRider84

You can squirt it with some starting Ether - if it runs - dies, you have fuel problems.

TomP

The scrape is just the starter motor gear trying to engage the flywheel's ring gear. But if both are meshed already, there's nothing to grind...

Nixon1

I'm lost here...I thought the starter gear and the flywheel were always meshed....and when the starter disengaged, it allowed the gear to spin freely without a load on the motor.... Is that anywhere close?

I had just always heard that the scrape when you turn the key with it already started is the starter gear hitting the flywheel teeth and that doing this for too long will tear the teeth up....

TomP

The starter gear doesn't touch the ring gear all the time. When you flip the key, the solenoid does two things; pushes the starter's gear "out" to touch the flywheel, and gives the starter motor power. If you ever have to drop your starter motor out, you'll see what I mean; you'll see that the starter gear is recessed into the housing.

What you heard about the scrape noise is true; the solenoid tries to push the starter gear into a moving ring gear, and that's why there's the scrape; the gears grind each other.

But if his starter motor kept cranking, and the engine was running, both gears would still be meshed, and the more powerful engine would start spinning the starter.

82-T/A [Work]

By the way guys,

Just a little more info on my progress with the car. I DID replace the starter. Actually, I pulled all the guts out of a brand new starter, and shoved them into my old casing just so that I would have the original casting in case I want to return the car to stock.

Anyway, by replacing the starter, that DID correct the problem with my starter sticking. THANKS!!

However, I still can't get it started. Does anyone know how much fuel pressure I SHOULD be getting? For those of you who have that schrader valve. When you turn the key to ignition, and it pressurizes the fuel system. When you cut it back off, and the motor is not running. If you were to push in the schrader valve.. what kind of fuel spray do you get from there? There's almost NO pressure when I do that. Now, I DO have the original fuel pump from 1987. Could that very well be a problem? I seem to remember getting 32psi... and I don't think that's correct.

I'm going to try spraying some starter fluid in the throttle body to see if I can at least get it to start for a second.


Thanks,

TomP

You should see some kind of spurt; do you have a gauge handy? Fuel pressure should be 42 PSI (if I remember correctly!) at the rail, with engine off, key on. If you crimp the return line closed, and then prime the pump, fuel pressure should reach max (dead head) pressure of 60 PSI.

TomP

Hey, wait, you said this motor was rebuilt- did it ever run before? You might not want to juice it up with starter fluid; wouldn't that botch up the initial break-in run-time? I'd hate to see your rings fail to seat and your cam get shot just for a couple seconds of starting...

Nixon1

Yeah you should definitely get something out of the Schrader valve...not just a drop or two, it should leak a pretty damn decent amount of fuel out...maybe like two or three of those cologne sample vials-worth....sounds about right to me but then it's been a little while since I checked fuel pressure and I cant measure for sure because I had the drain-off line going back into the lawnmower gas can...

clasbya

Hmm, looks like I am having the same issue with it not wanting to start.

Mine was running fine after I had my plugs replaced and my rotor. Then I went to working on my coolant fan problem and now the car wont start, just cranks, except for a few exceptions that it started with a rough idle. Could this be my ignition module? I havent checked fule pressure, didnt think this would be a problem seeing that I just replaced my pump and filter for one, just a few months ago.

82-T/A [Work]

Hey TomP, yeah, this motor is rebuilt. It DID run before I rebuilt it. But it hasn't run since the motor rebuild. I decided to rebuild it because it had a worn out main bearing and all the oil was dumping out of there.. killing the oil pressure.

It was the original 2.8 Cast Iron block out of my Fiero, I rebuilt it into a 3.1 with a high output camshaft.

I'm pretty sure I'm not getting anywhere near that fuel pressure. With the motor off, and the key in the ignition, I believe it's getting around 30 PSI. Maybe not even that. Wouldn't that be enough though for it to at least start???

I'm stuck in Dallas right now, but I'll check it out again when I get home this weekend.


Thanks guys!!!

TomP

(laughs) Yeah, I figured a rebuilt engine probably ran before it was rebuilt.

My point was, if it hasn't "run" for it's break-in period, you probably don't want to have the motor start up for a few seconds with starting fluid. I know the break-in for a motor goes something like: Start engine, run at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes for the cam to break in.

Oops, no, guess i was wrong; read this message: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=164633

So you probably don't want to keep messing with it.. I believe you can cause the cross-hatch to wear off the cylinder walls, which prevents the rings from seating properly. Definately fix that fuel delivery problem first!!! Also, make sure there's gas that's somewhat "new" in the tank- if the car sat for months with 1/8th tank of gas, the gas could be dead.