Damien00677

I'm thinking that instead of going through the v6 to v8 swap like everyone else, I will slowly build a 3.4 block from the bottom up. You know, cam, pistons, heads, maybe get some headers made, ceramics...the whole deal. Theoretically how much power could be made out of a properly built 3.4. I think it would be better to have a sleeper 6 than a monster gas guzzling 8. I know that it won't be as much as v8s can make (obviously) but I'd just like to be confident that I will take the imports and maybe stock 305's. Anything would be great, just don't tell me to put in a v8. thanks alot

D Stroy H8

You can make upwards of 250RWHP 250RWTQ I'd say. Go with 9:1 - 10:1 compression, and plan on running a very serious cam & heads combo.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

There is a company that builds off-road engines that claims to pull 300 horses (or about 100 horses per liter) out of one of those engines. Don't plan on passing smog.

But, you need to consider that there is not a lot of speed equipment available for that engine. Edelbrock makes a nice intake that will mount a 390 cfm four barrel. And, if that isn't enough, there is an adapter to mount Weber carbs to a fuel injection base manifold. Impressive, but hardly practical for a street engine.

Damien00677

do you know what company does that...maybe I can get some ideas from there.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

If you mean the company that builds the race engines, it is called Johnson Machine Shop (JMS) in Monrovia, California. There should be a company a little closer to where you are that can do the same thing. Do an internet search. If you still want to talk to JMS, respond and I'll post their telephone number.

You might want to start with the Chevy Power Manual. There is a section on building up the little V6, and go from there. There is a lot of helpful info, but keep in mind that you are still limited by the lack of aftermarket performance parts for that engine.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

Check out the featured F-Body

it's 3.4 powered. yeah it's a 4th gen, but still. the potential is there.

KED85

I know that it won't be as much as v8s can make (obviously) but I'd just like to be confident that I will take the imports and maybe stock 305's. Anything would be great, just don't tell me to put in a v8. thanks alot

Don't waste your time.
You will be disappointed for the dollar to horsepower ratio ya spend.
Go BUY a V-8 & be happy.

From one that didn't do this 3.4 swap to go race a bunch of stupid ricers & their weenie little friends.

Damien00677

I wonder what that guy runs without the nitrous?

and Ked, from reading about that guy with the fourth gen that runs 13's I am startin to agree with you about the horsepower to dollar ratio.....wonder what a "custom intercooled turbo system" costs.


Thanks guys, but it definately seems like it would be completely not worth my time and effort to build up a 3.4 since I would literally need to search hard for decent parts.

KED85

It is a hard reality response.
How deep ya pockets & at what expense.....
Serious a 3.4 is a great upgrade for a great economical package to keep enjoying your current ride.
You will have fun surprising most but not winning many races.
These Fbody rides are HEAVY!

AGood2.8

I'm curious-Can you name a part that we lack?

The only thing I can think of is better plenium and runners for our MPFI but even the stock ones can be welded and altered enough.

Hey, also I'd like an address or phone # to this JMS in monrovia you speak of. Do they specialize in 60*V6's or are they just a basic race motor shop that does everything. I too am in O.C. Calif.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

he runs 15.7 N/A.

he's also the on e w/the 3.4 intake and the TPI throttle body.
I found Dale's 3.4 on e-bay, he got a very good deal. there are many things that can be done. Just have to have patience and look for them. Again, it's also a reason I kept the 3.4 belt set up onmy ride

KED85

The blessed thing about the 3.4 upgrade is
YA START ON YOUR CURRENT 2.8/3.1
Ignition/induction/exhaust all benefit the smaller 60*
And those upgrades can easily be swapped over to the 3.4
There i$ a common $en$e limit and that'$ all I'll offer.
That's why I take em, as is & run 'em.
I've got a few more upgrades to perform ahe then my experimenting is done on the Firebird 3.4.
I seek exhaust upgrade next.
Finish the Blazer
Onto the motorcycle for gas milage & fun!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

You mean this 3.4l project??


<img src=http://www.boomspeed.com/twix69/P1010035-50.jpg>


I dont see to many products we are really limited to except direct bolt superchargers, and turbos.

Rockers,
TB
Pistons
Cams
pullys
injectors,
distribs
coils
ignition wires
ability to burn a chip
AFPR
headers
oversized alts
bla bla bla


Edit for moderators::: This may not be a camaro, but alot of people on this board lead me to this swap, and have assisted in parts. Please dont look due to "non-camaro" pic.

pontiacguy1

I would say that you could take the heads and intake and have them extrude honed and pick up quite a bit of power. Having a 3 angle cut on the valves and valve seats afterwards will help the valve discharge coefficient, which means that it will flow better at low lift. Get a better cam, the full roller rockers, and raise the compression to about 9.5:1. Get the headers, a high flow cat, and a catback exhaust. Throw on an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and you should be pushing the 200 HP mark or maybe even better. KED is right, though. Doing all that stuff would probably cost about $1500-$2500 or maybe more, for only about 50 HP gain. That is about $50/HP, which is not exactly the cheapest way to go. If you really want to make it run, you can. It will be unique, and people won't want to believe that they just got beat by a 60 degree V6 thirdgen. It won't be cheap, though.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I belive this is the girls combo on the s10 board.

3.4l block, crane 2030 cam (?), 1.6 rockers, 4.3l tbi, eledbrock (sp) tes headers, flowmaster, oem replacement timing chain, stock heads, stock intake, stock air cleaner with K&n, 5sp, =187RWHP. Dyno tested.

200 shouldn't be to hard to get with these. However, if power is your primary concern, seek the v8. IF you seek decent pep, with decent mpg, you have found your engine.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

Here's the telephone number for JMS: (626) 357-2718

Now, as for parts availability. Compare the aftermarket parts (or even factory parts) available for the Chevy V8 and then look at what is available for the little V6. Have you ever seen any aftermarket heads for the little V6? There is only one aftermarket intake available: Edelbrock. It's a two-piece by the way. And, if you go with the four barrel top, it isn't smog legal. How many intakes are available for the Chevy V8, both smog-legal and not?

Do you get a Summit Racing catalog? Go through it. There isn't much available for the V6. I'm not trying to discourage you, if your heart is set on building that V6, you just need to be aware of what you are getting yourself into.

For a lot less money you can have a V8 that will blow the doors off that V6.

KED85

3.4l block,
crane 2030 cam (?) (this is almost identical to the stock GM isssued 3.4 cam & Crane designed the cam upgrade for GM, also-GM Performance Parts Book.
1.6 rockers,
4.3l tbi - this one ya gotta explain.
What was the original mill?

eledbrock (sp) tes headers, flowmaster, oem replacement timing chain, stock heads, stock intake, stock air cleaner with K&n,

Hell, I'll waste the money for the headers if I can actually gain that much HP from my original 2.8-carb set up ontop of the 3.4 mill with factor ex. manifolds & a flowmaster exhaust, too.
I also tweeked my ignition.
I'm using the factory 3.4 rocker arms, tho.

E-Z Rollin

I have a picture of a home made single 4bbl carb tunnel ram in an 85 Hot Rod Annual that really looks impressive.I t's made from a 85 fuel inj. manifold base and runners , maybe I can scan and post it.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Ked, it was orginally a 2.8l TBI engine. They stick the 4.3l injectors in the 2.8l tbi, then knock down the pressure a bit, and thats how they get the added fuel they need to run the larger block. HOWEVER, the 2.8l TBI, and 4.3l TBI have the SAME bolt pattern. Just the 4.3l tbi is bigger bore. This meaning, she put a bigger more TB on, and then added the injectors she needed for the "usuall" swap. To do this, you have to dremmel out the area on the intake. Them holes arent as big, but they say its easy work.

So, I belive this is what she has

Upgrade from 2.8l to 3.4l
TES headers
Oversided TB, via the 4.3l TBI (cheaper then that holly TBI)
2030 cam
1.6 rockers
flowmaster
k&n drop in air filter
new timing chain (nothing fancy)
3.4l heads
2.8l air cleaner

I belive she did it this way for smog police. Don't quote me on that one though. So looking under hood, it would appear the only thing she did was headers. Not sure if she upgraded ignition or not.

KED85

THAT MAKES LOTS OF SENSE!!!!!!
WHAT A GREAT PLAN!
SO many ways to get around the smog police, have your cake & eat it too!
Very smart person that created that plan!
I still await my headers to be found at a swap meet!

AGood2.8

Thanks for the # to JMS.

I'm close to completely acquiring all of my parts for my motor. Supersix offers fully ported heads for these motors that give fantastic flow ratings over stock- they even include a 1.8" intake valve that helps greatly. I will be pumping at least 220-240Hp out of mine real soon. There is also about a 200lb decrease in weight over the V8 cars by me Hot rodding the 60*V6 and it is VERY rare to see. In case you don't know, I have a 540hp small block Vette. I'm building this little motor only because it is so rare.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Sorry I didn't break it down better in the first posting ked.

Agood, sounds like a nice little plan you have from reading about all your parts you are aquiring. Can't wait to here how it runs.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so you are taking this little V6 thing pretty serious. If you have the bucks, GM does make an all aluminum block for this engine. It is a little pricey ($3600 or so, as I recall, which probably qualifies as real pricey). As I recall, you are limited to about three liters with that block. You might want to check around for a used race engine.

The Chevy Power Manual also tells you how to modify BBC 1.6 rockers to work on that engine.

Good luck.

A Good2.8: As far as JMS being strictly a 2.8 shop, I doubt it. I think they build a variety of off-road (and probably other kinds of engines) as well.

Short edit. If anybody out there finds an adapter to bolt Webers to a 2.8 fuel injection base manifold, please let me know. I've been trying to find one of those for months. Thanks!

AGood2.8

I've owned the manual you talk if for about 10 years, thanks but thats old info. I'm more interested in any present day tricks done to these motors. Also well aware of the aluminum block.

KED85

Have ya checked out the latest issue of Car Craft magazine?
They have a small story about the next 60* V-6 versions!
It's all the good stuff we RWD V-6 always wanted.
Except exhaust manifolds that have an EGR set up attached to them!

Project: 85 2.8 bird

w/the aluminumblock, you're lnot imited to which heads/intake you can put on. This means GM fpower w/aluminum block, heads, intake. jsut strip a newr 3.1/3.4 HO fwd car & have at it. If you have the $$$$$$$ and the time

btw, the block has engine mount bosses for few & rwd apps

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

AGood2.8

From what I've heard, you are right about the info being dated. I think it is true for everything in the Chevy Power Manual, including the recommendations for the SBC and BBC. Chevy's race teams get the latest technology. I mentioned it because it is the only publication that I'm aware of on building up the 2.8.

Keoki_Firebird89

WHOA!
what are the parts that you are getting to get this power u want?
i'd like to know...
i've been serious for awhile now... i've just been working on my music career more lately...
but when i get everything on track i wanna get back to my 3.4
i was planning a turbo idea
i just wanted this becuz its so rare! no1 does this... and i like to be that no1
but to have 225-240 is a lot
the turbo idea i had... ran figures close to 300 horses...
i gotta refer to it again to find out how i was gonna pull it off... it took a lot of planning... why i haven't done it.... simple... the mula
i had a lot of the stuff figured out...
some of it was gonna be easy for me cuz my dad gets good prices

89cmrodriver

in jegs they sell a cam for 2.8's and 3.1's its $169..is it worth the money? anyone know the power increase?

AGood2.8

All HP comes from the heads. If you don't have good flowing heads the it don't matter what else you bolt to them. I have said in previous post that Chevy race teams have easily made gains of 1.5HP per cubic inch on these motors with the proper head work. At 1.5 hp per ci we are looking at around 300 hp motors- naturally asperated.

Keoki_Firebird89

so what should i do to the heads exactly?
buy better ones... from where?
make a company work on them...where?
this is new info, i always wanted my little v6 to hang with big v8s, and plus, this is all knowledge worth knowing about.

AGood2.8

Don't mess with 2.8/3.1 heads- not enough meat in the castings to do anything to them safely and reliably.

Here is a spec sheet from Supersix on there custom 3.4 heads that will bolt right to any f-body 60*V6. The flow chart show flow with stock 3.4 valves- 1.72" intake valve/ Supersix also offers a larger 1.8" intake valve that improves flow more. Heads are $850 +free shipping/ Larger intake option is $200 extra and worth it.

Click on the link below and then click on there PDF file under '93-'95 GM 3.4 powerpackage
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

That 4.3 tbi swap on to a 2.8 sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, I've got a carb on my 3.4. Does anybody know of a replacement (preferably smog legal) carb. Would a carb off a 4.3 swap? Thanks!

KED85

I believe the factory 2.8 carb will be just fine.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

looking good ked. I assume thats the blazer? Cam looks like its taking good pics too.

Send me one of your vette, and your new house

KED85

I keep forgetting to bring the camera over to the other house.
I haven't shown you the Corvette yet?
My favorite pic a big download & a recent pic ain't pretty.
Yeah, the camera is cooperating well.
Such a treat!
Yes, that's the Blazer engine bay.
Drag part is I need remove valve covers for rocker adjustment. Rest in then downhill.
I have the smog hose road map & everything to make Blazer a final go. Warm weather this week will help!
I really need my truck now. I've decided to be my own trash hauler to save some money on the house renovation. Luckily, I'm all ready with a trailer & trailer hitch on this Blazer

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

ked85

I was looking for something that would flow a little more air than the original carb. Any ideas?

KED85

What I plan on doing & I believe is smog legal, is make a spacer to raise carb higher on the intake.
Meaning, I plan on mimicking the Edelbrock intake idea.
When mine was rebuilt, I watched & did some helping. No, not much one can do to these carbs except make them work right.
One can also adapt a Holley 500CFM 2 barrel to the factory intake.
Smog legal, no not much.
YET, I must admit, when dialed in, this carb will be just fine.
My Blazer went from 65-70MPH top speed to 95 MPH top speed (before the 2.8 died) by adding more air into the engine, better exhaust and better spark.
Your F Body carb is computer controlled, where as my Blazer, due to being a federal 49 state vehicle, is not computer controlled at all.
Even up to the end of the 2.8 motor life, I never complained about the carb.
Get carb a primo rebuild, especially the throttle plate blades and you should be more pleased.
Edelbrock intake is only different by the interchangable top plates. Carb Height off manifold base is the extra added ingredient to the Edelbrock manifold. Make your own spacer.
My only true added tip.

Keoki_Firebird89

how much power can i expect from those heads from that company?
i'm assuming it'll fit onto my 3.4 heads naturally?
i would like to get the intake too, but i have my 2.8 intake manifold with the 3.4 block. i wouldn't be able to use the intake they are selling unless i go DIS ignition