Jurrel

Has anyone put a 3800 SC into a third gen firebird?
I have a 2.8L base bird, and am looking for more Torque and horsepower. I don't want to go V8, Id prefer sticking to V6.
I have the Borg-Warner T-5 manual transmission as well.

Any one that knows of sites to find info on this would be great. I would check the search, but well we know how that is going here. I know its VERY common to be done on Fieros.

Thanks!

KED85

From one who is the 2.8->3.4 Long Block swap coach.
I've done this twice & have coached about 30+ people here, by now.
FOR EASE OF PROJECT, stay with the 60* blocks.
LOW MILAGE USED 3.4 mills (93-95 F body RWD ONLY) are almost non-existence by now.
get a new crate engine.
Rebuild your carb or add an aftermarket intake (YET that cost is so high & factory stuff is very good, really! with PROPER REBUILD), rebuild distributor, add hi flow exahaust, get back on road and have some fun.
FOR YOUR VERSION a V-8 would be way better choice.
Yes, ya need a V-8 tranny.
I only help on smog legal swaps.
Out here in CA, that's what ya truly need for ease of smog inspections.
Better solution would be to sell your current bird & find a later model ride or a 3rd Gen V-8 ride for cheap & get to work under the hood.
The 3.8 is a 90* mill & ya need SO MUCH, might as well, just drop in a V-8!
Like I said I only suggest smog legal swaps.
If ya wanna do a hack job from hell, I cannot assist ya. NO 3rd gen rides came with the 3.8 mill (yes I know of the 1989 Trans Am, but you do not own that car & parts for that swap job are different than regular 3.8 stuff-research & you'll understand why I say this)
Really wiser to either convert to a V-8 or just sell this current ride and start fresh.
These 3rd gen rides so cheap why waste your effort recreating the wheel for only more power.
Start with right foundation.
Good luck!

big_al_47

actually, you could use your existing trans, since the 3800 SC is FWD it has the same bolt pattern. But, you would have a ton of other obstacles to overcome. Possible, yes. Easy, definitely not.

KED85

I'm being educated now,
for real...
Like the late model 3800 SC in a Grand Prix/Bonneville is really a 60* mill?
OR a 90* mill that can use a 60* tranny bellhousing?
I DO KNOW THAT the FWD Caddy Northstar can use the 60* V-6 tranny on those V-8 mills in a RWD conversion.

big_al_47

the FWD 3.8's use the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 60 degree FWD/RWD engines. The trans would bolt up, but you would still have issues such as intake, exhaust, electronics, motor mounts, starter, etc. to work out. Possible, yes, but definitely a custom (expensive and time consuming) job.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

INCORRECT

all 3.8's (FWD and RWD) have the buick V8 style bolt pattern

they DO NOT have the same bolt pattern as the 60* V6's

.........if you need credibility, i was a Buick/ Pontiac Mechanic's apprentice for over a year (i helped pull enough engines and trannies to be 100% sure)

big_al_47

Ok, before I decided to argue the point further, I did a little research. The last 3.8 I had in my hands was in an '88 Olds Delta 88, FWD, and that was about 4-5 yrs ago. But as I recalled it had what is known as the FWD, or 60 degree bellhousing bolt pattern. So I did some research, here's what I found.

This was written by a GM Powertrain engineer, and reinforces my earlier statement, FWD's do in fact have a different bolt pattern, and it is the same except for the Northstar engines.
<http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/html_.../msg00603.html>

This is off of Advance Adapters website, who are in business to mate transmissions to engines. Again, under the Buick v6 section, 2.8l and FWD Buick v6's have the same bolt pattern.
<http://www.advanceadapters.com/acrobat/enginfo.pdf>

Info from engineswaps.com, buick v6 section, showing that FWD Buick v6's have the same bolt pattern as a 2.8.
<http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/enginesbuick.html>

All three are credible sources, the first two being the most credible IMO. There's a lot of info out there about this, you can also check out the fiero sites, where numerous people have swapped FWD 3.8's into Fieros in place of the factory 2.8's.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

ok lets not argue here..............thats not the point of this forum

i am currently at the GM training center...............we have here three 3800 series engines

one is a S/Ced FWD
one is a FWD
and one is from a RWD camaro

they all have the same bolt pattern

i am confused now myself


do you have pic of the BOP bolt pattern
and a pic of the 60* V6 bolt pattern?

1991tealRSt-topGuy

ok, we were both kinda wrong

the OLD RWD 3.8's used the BOP bolt pattern





NOW, the FWD and RWD 3.8's use the 60* bolt pattern

(i just took a look at the bolt pattern on a 60* transmission)

NHRATA01

Makes sense that they did that with the series 2 3800. Alot of platforms, like the W bodies share the 60 degrees and 3800. Would've cause GM uneeded hassle to have 2 different 4T60 transmissions for the same car.

Jurrel

Umm.....okay now I want to make sure I have this right, I SHOULD be able to bolt my T-5 directly to the 3800 Series II without having to change the bellhousing, correct?

big_al_47

ok, just to clarify for everyone a little bit further. the original 3.8 engines, or the Gen I engines, were initially all rear wheel drive, and had the BOP bolt pattern. In the mid 1980's when the FWD buick LeSabre/Olds Delta 88 were introduced, these engines were modified for use in the FWD platform. ALL FWD 3.8's have ALWAYS had the 60 degree bell housing bolt pattern.

The original question was "Has anyone swapped a 3800 SC into a 3rd gen?" Which implies "Is is possible?" Since the 3800 SC has always been produced for the FWD platform, it has always had a 60 degree bolt pattern, thus it is a swap that is theoretically possible. (Check with the Fiero guys about flywheel/clutch/pressure plate combinations) The question has always been about swapping a FWD motor into a RWD car, it was never a question of swapping an original 3.8 RWD into a 3rd gen (which has been covered in the engine swap forum). If you read back through the posts, the info is all there.

It's important when you're thinking about swaps etc., to go back and get a little history on specific engines/transmissions, etc. because as you can see, engineers modify existing designs to suit their current needs. By knowing the history of the 3.8, and it's original use as a RWD engine, and the changes made to adapt it to FWD, the simple answer to the question was "yes, it's possible, but it won't be easy."
That answer applied only to his question about a specific 3.8, not every 3.8 ever built. There was no incorrect information, only misunderstanding.

Personally, I say go for it. Easy, no, but it'll be a lot of fun, if you're into that sort of thing. Custom is great, but don't forget it can be time consuming and expensive. If you decide to do it, keep us posted, show some pics, and let us know what challenges you run into. Good Luck!

big_al_47

Yes, but there will be flywheel/clutch issues. Do a search for "3.8 Fiero swap" or something similar on yahoo and read some of the sites where this has been done. Basically, it takes a little bit different flywheel.

KED85

ANOTHER DO-ABLE ENGINE SWAP!
Have ya seen the LATEST CAR CRAFT?
APRIL 2003
PAGE 18
THE LATEST REVISION OF THE REAL WHEEL DRIVE 60* V-6!
New size is a 3.6!
Power range from 200 UP TO 370HP
TORQUE 200 to 350 FOOT POUNDS!
IT'S A DOHC VERSION, TOO.
IF YA LOOK REAL HARD, ya can spot our timing chain cover currently used.

AND
AND
AND
I THINK
THE EXHAUST MANIFOLDS
JUST MAY FIT!!
Yet I see no EGR provision, drat!

MDv6man

Anxiously awaiting my copy...

NHRATA01

Isn't that the new "high feature" V6? I believe it has 24 valves, but is not DOHC, but has twin in-block cams, and alot of other nifty features.

But I believe there is a 200hp 3.5L 60 degree V6 that GM will be using soon, its just a bigger version of the 3.4.

KED85

I'll quote
"A true clean sheet design, the aluminum block, aluminum headed 60* "V"Global uses dual overhead cams over each cylinder bank to control four valves per cylinder just like a proper modern V-6. It also features continuously varible cam timing, electronic throttle control, a forged steel crankshaft, coil on plug ignition, a dual stage varible intake manifold (which looks IDENTICAL to the 3.4 SFI series under an F Body), and a a 32 bit engine control computer. That's just about every technology currently in vogue for new engines. A look at the block shows a deep skirt design with a structural aluminum oil pan and chain driven cams."

Last lines-
"Expect the engine to initially show up in America under the hood of the REAR WHEEL DRIVE Caddy CTS & then quickly migrate to the next-generatoion Buicks/Pontiacs/Chevys."

Expect us to dream!

What will swap over easy, tho?
The TRANSMISSION USED FOR THE RWD vehicle platform!!!

V6sucker

the vast majority of GM's FWD engines, not matter the degree of set, use the typical 60* trans mounting bolt pattern. They did this for easy of swapibility, to allow all the FWD engines designed to use the same basic transmissions.
I believe that the 60* was the first block to become a FWD "guiny pig" so they stuck with that generic case design. Why pay someone twice to design 1 part?.
That is why the Fiero and it's trans setup is such a sought after for engine swaps, thay will take ANY FWD engine into its bay and be happy with it, and not have to worry about trans interferance.

EDIT...
So IN THEORY you can take that brand new 3800 Series 2 with that Eaton 45(you know that 250+ HP V6, that also has an a$$ load of parts, due to it being in the GTP) and swap it into the camaro, and if you have a manual. you do not need to worry about it too much, besides the engine mounts.

KED85

So IN THEORY you can take that brand new 3800 Series 2 with that Eaton 45(you know that 250+ HP V6, that also has an a$$ load of parts, due to it being in the GTP) and swap it into the camaro, and if you have a manual. you do not need to worry about it too much, besides the engine mounts.

IN THEORY
Pamela Anderson is your Wife
IN THEORY
You possess unliminted income to do this, instead of just buying a newer car for the money invested for said swap.

BUT Dream on, it is fun!
Hope someone can pull this swap off for cheap!

V6sucker

Who would want anderson as a wife? I would'nt personally. Do not want to know what she has been exposed to as far as STD's from her former hubby...

Doing a basic search on www.car-part.com I am now seeing these engines down to and well below $1K.... How much did you spend on your 3.4? over $1K? ok.... So now lets see, spend say $900 on the engine, another 50 for the mounts. around say $75-100 on Soda/beer and pizza to bribe your freinds for help on the swap.
and in around 3-7 days enjoy your new V6 with comperable power to the TTA....

As side note, I continued looking through the pages of Car-part, and see that engine going down to $5-600 dollars, and around 50-60K miles. So whats the better deal?

$1K plus for a 3.4..... 160 HP/180-190 TRQ
$8-900 +/- for a S/C'ed 3.8 250+ HP/ 250-300 TRQ

Yea hard decision....

KED85

Mine were $800 & $900 for a 44K & a 50K running used long block.
Insert desired woman if so inclined.
Don't forget wiring issues.
In California, one would also need to start at $300, atleast, for the smog reinspection process.

My setups are 100% smog legal. Saves lots of aggrivation and my parts to purchase for the swap is extremly minimal.
IF I want more power, I have 4 other rides, Two with V-8 power.
My swaps and with what I coach people (atleast 30+ by now), it's an easy to accomplish and smog legal swap.

PERHAPS a late model 3800SC swapped into a 3rd gen will be a CA Smog legal swap, (as in a TTA drivetrain or a variation).

No one here, yet, claims to have done this 3800SC swap and made it past a first stop for California, the CA Smog Referees station.
I do not know about smog laws for other states, as one should strongly reseach their own state smog laws (on their own) before lifting a wrench for any engine swap.