Car won't pass
01-07-2003, 04:29 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
Car won't pass
Car failed California smog by a lot. Failed on HC and CO emmisions. Could it be anything else but a cracked valve? I had this problem once and had to replace the #1 cylinder exhaust valve. If i don't have to tear the engine apart again, that would be awsome. I'm gonna do a compression test and leak-down anyway, but still looking for other suggestions to check. Thanks.
01-07-2003, 06:39 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
Maybe the smog pump or catalytic converter?
01-07-2003, 07:29 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
well...looks like I'll just have to go on the compression test 'cause the cat is brand new, and the smog pump has nothing to do with the HC emissions. Maybe I'll just run some alcohole through it to pass smog. Runs like crap that way...but really clean. :-)
01-07-2003, 07:32 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
Also, does anyone know what the stock setting for the idle RPMs is. Mine seems really low(750). I thought that it should be around 900 to 1000. Anyone?
01-07-2003, 07:37 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
I doubt 750 is low for a warm engine idle...sounds on-par to me.. Dunno what mine idles at but I'm sure it's around there..feels like it's too low but it's just running rough... Hell I've seen some 4 cyls that idle at 500-600...it's crazy....
01-07-2003, 07:40 PM
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Car: 1986 Firebird
Engine: 2.8 V6
Transmission: 700R4
Oh, high CO and HC could be a TON of things besides a cracked valve? Done a major tuneup lately? You should do a <a href="search.php?s="><img src="images/top_search.gif" alt="Search" border="0"></a> in the V6 forum for "major tuneup", you'll find my message.
And if you search for "emissions" by TomP in the V6 forum, you'll find info like I wrote here:
And if you search for "emissions" by TomP in the V6 forum, you'll find info like I wrote here:
Originally posted by TomP
A quick class on emissions basics... I think you can find longer messages by me on here by searching the V6 forum for for "emissions" or "smog" written by TomP....
HC = unburnt fuel, usually the result of an incomplete combusion cycle. This points mostly to a bad ignition system. They say that one car that's misfiring on ONE cylinder will create the same amount of emissons as 10 "perfectly running" cars! So, what to look at? Check the resistance of all your plug wires (remove one at a time) with an ohmmeter to make sure none are way off spec. Remove the plugs, clean them with a wire brush, and regap them. Remove the distributor cap & rotor, and remove all carbon tracking from the terminals with a file. Don't file down the metal of the terminals! (If you or something else doesn't know what carbon tracking inside a cap looks like, check out my page here: http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen/burnt-cap.html Usually the carbon tracking is just on the terminals, not the cap plastic itself!) Check the timing, set it to stock specs (10 degrees advanced/BTDC)!
CO = not enough air into the motor. So what you asked is what I always suggest- buy two cheap-as-hell air filters, and put them in just for the drive to and from the testing center. Get home, and put your K&N's back in, and put the cheapies back in the box for next year.
NOx = caused by situations with high compression and high combustion temperatures. Too bad this is how we make HP! The EGR reduces NOx's by reintroducing exhaust gas into the motor, which, oddly enough, has a cooling effect on the explosion inside the cylinder. (You can't burn exhaust as well as you can burn fresh air, so the explosion is calmed down.)
All 3 of these are also affected by the catalytic convertor. If it's in poor shape or gutted, a replacement might significantly drop the smog #s. You can usually get a high-flow aftermarket bolt-in (not weld-in like an auto store will try to sell you) cat for $60-$80. Hot Rod did HP/emissions testing with an open pipe, high flow cat, and NEW GM cat. The new GM cat dropped HP by one or two points, but reduced the emissions over 3 times than that of the aftermarket cat. Two points to note: GM knows how to make a cat that's less restrictive, as opposed to their "first tries" in the 70's. Two, the GM cat reduces emissions much more than a high flow, so if you have a problem car, you might want a GM cat. Problem #1: GM wants upwards of $300 for one of their cats.
High HC = check ignition system for misfire
High HC + high CO = running rich. Try changing the air filter
High HC + normal = running lean.
High NOx = check EGR valve, think about replacing the cat.
Oh- I used the "Guaranteed 2 Pass" additive, the local Pep Boys carries it. For my first test on the new NJ dynos, my mechanic was amazed at how low my #'s were. The second test, I barely passed- and now, I think it's because of that distributor cap. I never bothered to check underneath, like I had for Test #1 in 2000- and then I betchya I would've found that melted rotor button! I think that's why I was borderline failing. The addtives are supposed to clean the catalytic convertor somehow, as well as clean the fuel injectors.
A quick class on emissions basics... I think you can find longer messages by me on here by searching the V6 forum for for "emissions" or "smog" written by TomP....
HC = unburnt fuel, usually the result of an incomplete combusion cycle. This points mostly to a bad ignition system. They say that one car that's misfiring on ONE cylinder will create the same amount of emissons as 10 "perfectly running" cars! So, what to look at? Check the resistance of all your plug wires (remove one at a time) with an ohmmeter to make sure none are way off spec. Remove the plugs, clean them with a wire brush, and regap them. Remove the distributor cap & rotor, and remove all carbon tracking from the terminals with a file. Don't file down the metal of the terminals! (If you or something else doesn't know what carbon tracking inside a cap looks like, check out my page here: http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen/burnt-cap.html Usually the carbon tracking is just on the terminals, not the cap plastic itself!) Check the timing, set it to stock specs (10 degrees advanced/BTDC)!
CO = not enough air into the motor. So what you asked is what I always suggest- buy two cheap-as-hell air filters, and put them in just for the drive to and from the testing center. Get home, and put your K&N's back in, and put the cheapies back in the box for next year.
NOx = caused by situations with high compression and high combustion temperatures. Too bad this is how we make HP! The EGR reduces NOx's by reintroducing exhaust gas into the motor, which, oddly enough, has a cooling effect on the explosion inside the cylinder. (You can't burn exhaust as well as you can burn fresh air, so the explosion is calmed down.)
All 3 of these are also affected by the catalytic convertor. If it's in poor shape or gutted, a replacement might significantly drop the smog #s. You can usually get a high-flow aftermarket bolt-in (not weld-in like an auto store will try to sell you) cat for $60-$80. Hot Rod did HP/emissions testing with an open pipe, high flow cat, and NEW GM cat. The new GM cat dropped HP by one or two points, but reduced the emissions over 3 times than that of the aftermarket cat. Two points to note: GM knows how to make a cat that's less restrictive, as opposed to their "first tries" in the 70's. Two, the GM cat reduces emissions much more than a high flow, so if you have a problem car, you might want a GM cat. Problem #1: GM wants upwards of $300 for one of their cats.
High HC = check ignition system for misfire
High HC + high CO = running rich. Try changing the air filter
High HC + normal = running lean.
High NOx = check EGR valve, think about replacing the cat.
Oh- I used the "Guaranteed 2 Pass" additive, the local Pep Boys carries it. For my first test on the new NJ dynos, my mechanic was amazed at how low my #'s were. The second test, I barely passed- and now, I think it's because of that distributor cap. I never bothered to check underneath, like I had for Test #1 in 2000- and then I betchya I would've found that melted rotor button! I think that's why I was borderline failing. The addtives are supposed to clean the catalytic convertor somehow, as well as clean the fuel injectors.
01-07-2003, 07:48 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
Tom...quick q on that pasting up there..under your section on the Hydrocarbons, I thought carbon tracking on the terminals in the cap was only a problem for coil-on-cap cars..the V8's?
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01-07-2003, 07:51 PM
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Car: 1986 Firebird
Engine: 2.8 V6
Transmission: 700R4
Nope, it's a problem on any cap & rotor. 'Fact, the v8's after 1987 have our style of ignition, remote coil HEI... plus, the terminals inside the cap wear down, if the cap and the rotor are really old, your spark won't be as strong leaving the cap.
01-07-2003, 07:51 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
well, i think i will check all of those things tomorrow, but i don't think i will find anything. I just had the cat replaced, cap, rotor, wires, plugs and coil are all about 3 months old. Replaced Number one cylider exhaust valve due to a crack in about may of last year. I noticed that when I was doing the compression test that found the one bad valve, the number 2 cylider was lower than the others, but still within specs. That's what leads me to believe that it went bad. Also i need to know just about exactly the idle RPMs should be at because that was another reaso I failed. The printout said that they were out of spec. Hope I can get it fixed soon. Thanks guys. Lemme know if you have anymore info.
01-07-2003, 07:54 PM
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Car: 1986 Firebird
Engine: 2.8 V6
Transmission: 700R4
So you just did -another- compression test, and have low compression? Or are you talking about the one you originally did when the valve was first replaced? You didn't mention timing...
01-07-2003, 08:30 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
Here's the clarification. Early last year I did a compression test on my car for my automotive class at school. Had no compression on #1 cylinder and low compression on #2. The number 2 cylinder, although low was within factory specification. All the rest were fine so I just did the one side(now regreting that choice). After I replaced the valve and put everything back together i did another check and cylinder 1 was fixed and #2 hadn't changed. Ran fine for a while, but then the catalytic converter clogged right after the coil died. fixed that and it ran fine again until recently when I started smelling fuel from the tail pipe. I was hoping to barely pass smog, bt to no avail. I really don't want to tear the engine apart again, but if that's what I have to do, i will. The timing was set at 13 degrees BTDC but that's easily fixed. The idle speed was another place that I failed. The computer print-out said that I was out of specification, but it idles at about 750 rpm. The max HC emissions in california for my car is 224 ppm and I was pushing 3329(really bad). The CO is supposed to be .20 and I was running .224. Hope this helps you help me. Thanks.
01-07-2003, 08:51 PM
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Car: 86-FireBird
Engine: -MPFI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3:42
Originally posted by TomP
Nope, it's a problem on any cap & rotor. 'Fact, the v8's after 1987 have our style of ignition, remote coil HEI... plus, the terminals inside the cap wear down, if the cap and the rotor are really old, your spark won't be as strong leaving the cap.
Nope, it's a problem on any cap & rotor. 'Fact, the v8's after 1987 have our style of ignition, remote coil HEI... plus, the terminals inside the cap wear down, if the cap and the rotor are really old, your spark won't be as strong leaving the cap.
we need a cheap crank trigger setup with a bank of 6 coils. toss that cap in the garbage.
01-08-2003, 02:46 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
1 coil directly wired to each cylinder? I like.. Imagine the costs though...$50 or so per coil, x6...OUCH.
01-08-2003, 03:11 PM
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Car: 86-FireBird
Engine: -MPFI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3:42
Originally posted by Nixon1
1 coil directly wired to each cylinder? I like.. Imagine the costs though...$50 or so per coil, x6...OUCH.
1 coil directly wired to each cylinder? I like.. Imagine the costs though...$50 or so per coil, x6...OUCH.
If I could only make the rest for 20 bucks.
01-08-2003, 04:19 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
ok, did the compression test and every cylider checks out at 150 psi. I did however find that i had a busted spark plug. When I went to remove the plug wire, the top half of the plug came out too. I think that was the problem 'cause you could see the burn marks on the insulator where it was grounding to the engine. That would cause the misfire, or non-fire as it may, and hence the high HC and CO emissions. Now i just have to get the ignition timeing back down to 10 BTDC and the idle speed right and off to the Smog Check I go. However, i still have a small problem. The car all of the sudden has crappy throttle response and doesn't seem to have as much power as it did. It seems like my coil has gone bad again, but it's brand freaking new. Any ideas? Raw gas smell is gone though.
01-08-2003, 05:42 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
Does it ever feel like it's lagging during cruise? Such as, rpms drop a little and engine tone lowers, then recovers..does this every 5 seconds or so, like a cycle? Just curious..lol, that's the problem I have...all I know is, every time I replace an ignition part, it gets better and better...still there though.... How is your TPS? Maybe the car is dumping in too much fuel for those lean spots...either a fault in the fuel delivery system, or the ignition loses spark for some reason and can't get rid of the excess...which ties in with your emissions problems.
01-09-2003, 07:49 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by 2_point8_boy
ok, did the compression test and every cylider checks out at 150 psi. I did however find that i had a busted spark plug. When I went to remove the plug wire, the top half of the plug came out too. I think that was the problem 'cause you could see the burn marks on the insulator where it was grounding to the engine. That would cause the misfire, or non-fire as it may, and hence the high HC and CO emissions. Now i just have to get the ignition timeing back down to 10 BTDC and the idle speed right and off to the Smog Check I go. However, i still have a small problem. The car all of the sudden has crappy throttle response and doesn't seem to have as much power as it did. It seems like my coil has gone bad again, but it's brand freaking new. Any ideas? Raw gas smell is gone though.
ok, did the compression test and every cylider checks out at 150 psi. I did however find that i had a busted spark plug. When I went to remove the plug wire, the top half of the plug came out too. I think that was the problem 'cause you could see the burn marks on the insulator where it was grounding to the engine. That would cause the misfire, or non-fire as it may, and hence the high HC and CO emissions. Now i just have to get the ignition timeing back down to 10 BTDC and the idle speed right and off to the Smog Check I go. However, i still have a small problem. The car all of the sudden has crappy throttle response and doesn't seem to have as much power as it did. It seems like my coil has gone bad again, but it's brand freaking new. Any ideas? Raw gas smell is gone though.
RBob.
01-09-2003, 07:53 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by Nixon1
Does it ever feel like it's lagging during cruise? Such as, rpms drop a little and engine tone lowers, then recovers..does this every 5 seconds or so, like a cycle? Just curious..lol, that's the problem I have...all I know is, every time I replace an ignition part, it gets better and better...still there though....
Does it ever feel like it's lagging during cruise? Such as, rpms drop a little and engine tone lowers, then recovers..does this every 5 seconds or so, like a cycle? Just curious..lol, that's the problem I have...all I know is, every time I replace an ignition part, it gets better and better...still there though....
In this case the O2 sensor was probably silicon poisoned as I had been using a lot of it in the garage in the week before the problem started.
RBob.
01-09-2003, 12:28 PM
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Car: 1991 Camaro RS Vert
Engine: 350 S-TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: GU5/G80/J65
damn, they stick it to ya A$$ in cali don't they?? I would replace the o2 sensor and drive it for a day or two to get the computer to learn everything again. Timing will change the idle rpms to wont it??
I have heard of people bending that tab on the throttle linkage to "adjust" timing. Or drill that set screw out and install a reg screw to "make a stopper"
I have heard of people bending that tab on the throttle linkage to "adjust" timing. Or drill that set screw out and install a reg screw to "make a stopper"
01-09-2003, 12:57 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
RB....already replaced the O2 sensor. Old one was throwing codes and made me run constantly rich...old plugs were all black. Car still runs rich but not nearly as bad... Although it blackened the hell out of a set of Bosch Platinums after only about 2 weeks in. Got an extra 5 mpg or so out of the new sensor, and no more codes...more consistent throttle and power too.
Last edited by Nixon1; 01-09-2003 at 01:00 PM.
01-09-2003, 07:57 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
They really do stick it to you in California. I am taking the classes to become a Smog tech(Taken one of six) in college and good lord there are a lot of things you need to follow. It sux too because they have these damn test only stations that aren't allowed to even do diagnosis. They screw you hard that way. Lots of money spent if you don't know what to look for.
ANyway, i think I may have figured out my lack of power problem. When I was taking out the plug wires, 2 of them broke, and since i don't get paid until friday I am forced to use older ones and i think they have bad resistance. Makes sense, right. We'll find out on saturday if i fix it or not. Until then I guess i drive around on 20 hp hehehehe
ANyway, i think I may have figured out my lack of power problem. When I was taking out the plug wires, 2 of them broke, and since i don't get paid until friday I am forced to use older ones and i think they have bad resistance. Makes sense, right. We'll find out on saturday if i fix it or not. Until then I guess i drive around on 20 hp hehehehe
Last edited by 2_point8_boy; 01-09-2003 at 08:45 PM.
01-10-2003, 12:42 AM
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Car: 1988 Trans Am
Engine: 305 TPI
I really feel bad for you guys living in CA. They have the toughest EPA requirements of any state. I am glad I live in a non emissions testing area, although my car will probably pass since I have had all of my emissions lines, valves, cat, and sensors replaced, plus a really high voltage ignition system. I may not have to be tested, but I like knowing that I could pass if I had to. . . . .hopefully.
I hope you pass, it isn't always easy since our cars are approaching 20 years old.
I hope you pass, it isn't always easy since our cars are approaching 20 years old.
01-13-2003, 09:02 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro RS
Engine: 2.8L of Raw POWER!!!
Transmission: Stick Shift
Axle/Gears: 3.42's
Got it running right
I replaced the plug wires, but the car was still running pretty crappy. i was standing there watching the engine run and then thought to myself, "I wonder if the TPS is adjusted right?" I tested it and it was only putting out .34 volts when spec is supposed to be 0.54v to 0.56v. I Adjusted it and it runs perfectly now and with a lot more power. Never thought that a simple adjustment and new wires could help so much. Thanks for everyones help. I'll let everyone know how the smog test goes( Just in case anyone cares)
I replaced the plug wires, but the car was still running pretty crappy. i was standing there watching the engine run and then thought to myself, "I wonder if the TPS is adjusted right?" I tested it and it was only putting out .34 volts when spec is supposed to be 0.54v to 0.56v. I Adjusted it and it runs perfectly now and with a lot more power. Never thought that a simple adjustment and new wires could help so much. Thanks for everyones help. I'll let everyone know how the smog test goes( Just in case anyone cares)
01-13-2003, 09:16 PM
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Car: 95 E-150 & 07 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Engine: A slow one & a fast one
Transmission: A bad one & a good one
Axle/Gears: A weak one & a chained one
Righteous.... Feels good when it's fixed and you did it, doesnt it? Had the same feeling with my starter..I was like "HALELUJAH! I AM INVINCIBLE! I AM MAN, HEAR ME BURP!"...oh yeaaaahhh....
01-13-2003, 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Dale
damn, they stick it to ya A$$ in cali don't they??
damn, they stick it to ya A$$ in cali don't they??
Its called "Remote Sensing". The mother%@#$!^% bureacrats are insisting on random roadside monitors that will consist of a laser type meter on on side that will read HC,CM, & NOx levels and on the other side of the road a camera to record the license plate of every vehicle that passes and the info will be stored for later processing.
What this means? Is that even cars that are 30 yr exempt for smog test will be "randomly picked" (My ***) for a "Manditory smog survey and inspection. Any vehicle that fails to abbide to the inspection and smog pass will have their registration revolked!
Is this B.S or what? http://www.geocities.com/smogrfg/rem...sd_update.html
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