AFrikanGoodTime

This was a GM prototype race motor. Oh if I could get my hands on that intake.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Hum, looks like a 1950's 60deg V6 . But if it pumps out 250 poines, And it would fit under the hood of my s10, I'm all for it. Make people look at my truck at shows and go WTF

AFrikanGoodTime

1950's? (Don't let the black and white photo fool you)

Do you have any clue what you are looking at? Drysump and Hilborn Injectors to start with the outer appearences!

AFrikanGoodTime

Here's another motor. Its a Midget Sprint motor with genII aluminum heads.

Actually its stated that these motors with extensive head work can produce over 1.5 hp per cu. in.. Aluminum race blocks can be punched out to 211 cu in. or a 3.52 liter ( 3.68 bore/3.31 stroke). that equates to aprox. 316 HP!

joezero

where are these pics coming from? Just curious if there's more info on the engine somewhere.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I wasnt refuring to the black and white. I was refuring the the air intake setup. That looks like some of the 1950's racecar engines intake setups.

AFrikanGoodTime

Actually you probably mean the late 60's Can Am cars. Can Am cars were the most powerful road cars ever built. Just after the series ended in 1972, most racing went to restrictive rules limiting horsepower. Most Can Am cars ran Hilborn injectors, and the motors they ran produced in excess of sometimes 1200 HP.They never limited fuel capacity then either, Like every type of racing nowadays does.

Joezero, those engine are out of some GM performance parts book from about 10 yrs back. They don't list must more than I've already posted.

joezero

So where are they getting that extra 100+ HP?

AFrikanGoodTime

Extensive headwork, the angle of the intake flow, size of the intake, extensively blueprinted/balanced/and lightened bottomend, dry sump(crank not being slowed by the oil in the crankcase, The best of everything! Remember, It is a factory prototype race motor developed and built with eccentually unlimited funds. You can not get that kind of power out of a stock iron 60*/v6 block. There is not enough material to machine the block to those specs. The aluminum blocks also have 4 bolt mains.

funstick

gm perfomance still carries the bock.

Ryan_Alswede

The biggest advantage is NO EMISSION equipment and HIGH compression and FREE flowing everything. I bet they have huge valves and an aggressive cam.

joezero

I know I guy who had an 86 camaro and he'd swapped in a new 2.8. Anyway he said the mechanic who did it also increased the compression. Any idea and how much of an HP increase raising the compression to like 10:1 would have? This guy said that they'd doubled the compression, but that sounds like to me.

Ryan_Alswede

doubled?? They must now be pushing the piston UP into the head chamber 10 to 1 is nice but you better by 89 octan or she will ping.

joezero

I'm running 91 octane now, I know I'm weird. But I figure that that way I won't feel any price shock when I really have to use it after the engine mods I'm planning. Plus it lets me running more ignition advance, which makes me feel special Yeah, I dunno about this guy, he told me that cutting the bottoms of the air box gave you like another 20 HP. But I know that they did make an HO 2.8, but I don't know what it was rated at. I just want to try and get my car to 200+ HP, I think that would be enough of an accomplishment with a 2.8.

Ryan_Alswede

91 octan is only good if you have more then 9.5 to 1 compression (prevents predetination), you only have 8.5 to 1 so your wasting your money. You need at least the 3.4L as a bases to try to get to 200 hp and still have it drivable.

devianb

I would be more impressed if that engine could pass an emissions test and was fuel injected. It is easy to uncork horsepower when the engine does not have to be street legal.

joezero

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what people who have done the swap have said I get this impression: You do the engine swap, which will involve removing components from the 2.8L engine and putting them onto the 3.4. You then have to redo a lot of the wiring in order to use the 2.8 sensors so that you can keep the 2.8 ECM. After you do the swap, you'll also need to get your tranny rebuilt because the 3.4 produces more torque and will tear apart a well worn tranny. So basically you're looking at a new engine and tranny, as well as having to swap components to make the new engine work. To me that sounds like as much work as a v8 swap, it's just that you're able to this one a little bit at a time so it doesn't seem as big and overwhelming. But if I have to pull this engine, another v6 isn't going back in there.

joezero

What would it take to get to 9.5:1? Would shaving the heads a little bit be enough? I'm sure everybody thinks I'm a loser for thinking like this, but for me I feel like an idiot if I've got a sports car and I'm putting freakin 87 octane in my car.

85f-bird

you'd have to do the math to find out how much you'd have to shave the head in order to get a compression of 9.5 : 1, oh ,and our cars have 8.9:1 compression, so it's actually closer to 9:1 then it is to 8.5:1...........you can shave the heads, buy domed pistons etc.....up to you, and the other benefit to buying a higher grade gasoline, keeps you safer from running into bad gas that's sooooo often found in the lowest grade....i use a minimum of 89, 91 a couple fillups a month, normally once every two weeks or so....just my take on the octane thingie.

Ryan_Alswede

Sorry it says right in the chevy factory manual 8.5 to 1, yes shaving the heads is the fastest way, you don't need much.

Well the oppisite is true, everybody buys the low grade so you never get stale gas but if you buy the expensive stuff, it's been sitting in the ground tanks forever.

joezero

So I would just need to have the machine shop shave the heads then, right? Also how much of a gain would one expect with higher compression?

Um, I buy my gas at costco and nothing stays in the tanks there for long. There's always a big *** line.

Ryan_Alswede

hmm I don't know maybe 15 hp.

Trust me just buy regular at costco and save you money for mods on your camaro.

KED85

I did the V-6 swap for one simple reason.
To pass smog with ease.
I did.
No questions asked.
I offer nothing said.
I save about $300 for smog recertification in CA.
One does "need" it for swaps.
BUT our V-6 cars say V-6 in the VIN tag.
Can't get around that detail.
By using larger same looking mill, I win.
Better POWER
Better GAS MILAGE
MORE CUBIC INCHES.
Why trannys go?
SO MUCH TORQUE
200 FOOT POUNDS AT 3600RPM
One literally overpowers your worn down tranny.
I also had a perfect body rust free platform with great suspension, decent interior with bad engine & supposed good tranny.
To get my car back on the road cheap, the swap of a late model, same physical size, lots of interchangable stuff, bigger cubic inches, low milage, more powerful, cheap to purchase running long block mill seemed quite logical.

Ryan_Alswede

Not the 4L60 tranny KED85, yep I plan to do the same thing only I plan to use a long block. BETTER value because of miles. And use a junk yard core as the trade, since we can't use the intake.

JRoy91RS

250 hp, I think, is very attainable by any of you V6 guys, as long as you're willing to pull the heads. I'm not sure what kind of cams are available, but it would seem as though if you had a decent cam with decent duration, did some really good port work on the heads and intake, added a decent exhaust, maybe ported the TB a little, increased FP, you should have a really nice street machine that's easy on gas. Some machine shops I know will do a little extra work on heads that they don't normally run across, just to see what the results would be, and to keep younger guys interested in modding. A friend of mine took a set of Vortecs into a local machine shop, and got quite a bit of free machine work done, just because no one at the shop had ever touched Vortec heads. I may be wrong, gut I would think (and hope) that after all the work listed above, you would have at least 250 hp on a 3.1 or 3.4.

TomP

The 85-89 2.8 does have 8.9:1 compression... are you reading a manual for the 3.1's, or maybe the 82-84 2.8's?

Berlyn0963

iTrader: (4)

so my 3.1 LHO has 8.5:1 compression then?

redraif

Again why I'm going to an 8. Even the Turbo 3.8 would be as much work!

KED85

I met a guy in the wrecking yard today.
He's a smog guy.
He CONFIRMED my "hearing" of IF your car is a V-6 by VIN, then a V-6 goes there.
IN CALIFORNIA, come smog time, IF I had installed a V-8, I would have had to been RECERTIFIED BY CALIFORNIA SMOG PEOPLE to be allowed a smog test.
That cost is very costly & maybe more than $300.
BY doing what I did, I gained mucho power, quick ride, no smog worries, long car life. AND SAVED $300 of this state testing!!
This was my decision.
NOW this smog testing guy is installing a 1989 L-98 into his 1987 V-6 car. We discussed & agreed how he'll do it.
He knows the big fun part.
Finding the exact Prom/ECM combo to start at Zero testing and running miles for Custom Swap break in. Then one day, Hi-Po Prom if the need.
And the Wiring of the 1989 L-98 to his 1987 V-6 ride. I gave my suggestions.

BUT can you get by your state program smog people without raising an eyebrow?

SSC

Somthing kinda funny based off of wehat ked is talking about .I Know a few guys in a Fierro club, they live is COsprings colorado. When they need smogged the 3.4's there 3.4's actually produce less emmisions then thier old 2.8's and these were compared to the records when the cars were new.
I'm still not impressed with any 3.4 though but swap that around to a vortec 4.3 then I'm impressed.

Ryan_Alswede

to bad a 4.3 won't bolt up.

JRoy91RS

It'll bolt up to mine!

KED85

I accepted the power upgrade for the change I put out.
I read that Hot Rod article.
All I can say is that's nice.
Ask for the price tag of that project.
And then.......
Quite happy I installed the easy 3.4 swap.
My Emissions are way low, also.
It's your wallet that your deal with when ya open your hood.
Any engine will fit in our engine bays, if the wallet is plentiful.

Ryan_Alswede

Why would you want a 4.3L when you could have a nice 350?

JRoy91RS

Exactly! Actually, mine was originally a 305. I would like to put a 4.3 in a v8 thirdgen someday. Why? It'll bolt right up with a little modification, and I have never, ever seen a thirdgen with a 4.3--not even anywhere on the internet. If you find one, please tell me!. Biggest problem would probably be exhaust manifolds. No one makes headers for this swap. Probably have to fab up some, especially for the driver's side. Pass. side would probably be able to use any 4.3 headers for S-10's, but that driver's side is really tight. Another reason for a 4.3 swap--it leaves an extra 4" for a big fat intercooler!!!

Ryan_Alswede

Ok just to be unique I can see that. Me I would get the 350 lots of cool parts and bolt ons. Less head ache.

KED85

Go find a Syclone & slip in the mill.
Best of luck.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i know a guy that races with the nmca in either the real street or the hot street class. he has an 86 sc with a 4.3 in it. It is an old bucsh series motor that was originally a 4.3 block but has since been rebored and reworked and blah blah blah. the car with nitrous now runs in the low 9-mid 8 second range.

JRoy91RS

Awesome!!! Does this guy have a webpage? Email? Would he mind if I chatted with him about his setup? I've heard that you can buy old racing engines and parts...but I'm not sure where.

James

redraif

Thats the last step. We have to talk to the emissions people. I know GA is getting stricter by the year, but I believe it is only a matter of it just having to fall w/ in the allowances for that engine of that year. So I would think an LT1 would run w/ in th allowances for a 2.8. It better run cleaner. (though we are talking about me ending up with a 400+ HP engine) GA is getting so strict that my emissions guy says 90% of 2.8 do not pass. That might explain the insane amount of 2.8L sedans in the local yards. There are typically 40-50 84-89 6000 LE sedans. (My moms old car) My back up car if I can get it to run right.

KED85

It's simple economics.
Cost $1,000+ to rebuild & replace an engine in an old car.
Spend that $1,000 plus on down payment for new car & zero problems.
With the bargin loan rates going, where else does the trash land?
In the wrecking yards.
YET a Pontiac 6000 is NOT DESTINED TO BE A CLASSIC
Our F Bodies are already classics.
Tough decision time.
Think thru all options b4 ya lift that wrench.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

You left out the monthly payments, higher insurance (don't need full coverage on a beater, you do on a car you have borrowed $$$ on)...and the fact that after 60 months of payments, twenty four + of them without a warranty, you are left with a car "NOT DESTINED TO BE A CLASSIC" that you have wasted $10-15000 on. The old Pontiac in question isn't worth doing a full restoration on by any means, but keeping it running (cheaply) is definitely well worth it. Its paid for, and generally very reliable.

joezero

But the money that you spend on a new car helps insure fewer headaches. I'd venture to say that older cars and "classics" require five times the amount of work to keep it in the same running condition as a new car. Now on a car that is a genuine classic, like american muscle cars, all that trouble is worth it. But I don't think most people would be interested in putting the amount of time and effort into keeping an 88 Dodge Caravan on the road.