Zirtbow

I would ask this on the motor swap forum but then I thought since its a v6 to v6 I have a better chance here of people knowing what i'm talking about on each engine...

Ok I should get another v6 out of an 89 firebird... free.. so thats nice.. I thought I could rebuild that since everything on mine is so rusted (86 camaro) and that v6 would probably not have nearly as many stuck bolts (nearly all of mine are stuck).. anyway.. he looked at mine and said his belt setup was different and his battery was on the drivers side and mine was on the passenger side.. I thought that wasn't a problem but then I thought "wait so is the starter on the same side still?" as I haven't seen positive battery cables that were really long enough for that...

anyway.. ... 86 v6 MPFI to 89 v6 out of a firebird... whats got to change?

KED85

Here is all ya really need do and YOU add the varibles.
Open your current ride hood.
That is a exactly how the swap will look in the end.
Before you start the swap, do a compresion check on your current engine & the other engine.
Over 150 and the swap is worth it.
Under 150 is getting "dicey".
Add a new timing chain, new water pump, new rear main seal, oil pump spring (stock pressure) and if possible, the Fiero valve covers into the mix!. Rebuild the distributor while in your hands, too.
Everything from one block will fit the other and all cables mix/match. Including the front bracketry. I am now installing 1985 Blazer 2.8 bracketry onto a 1995 Camaro 3.4 block. Yes, it all fits, easily.
Only need observe before you remove from one block.
It is very simple, very detailed.
DO NOT remove the heads NOR the exhaust manifolds. NO need to.
Buy only gaskets needed, at one time, for "discount" compared to a full on engine rebuild gasket set. BUT compare prices on both "gasket kits".
Keep ALL spare parts & use the BEST balancer.
MAKE SURE you install a new Pioneer sleeve on the balancer snout.
Hope it works well for you.

Zirtbow

I was thinking about having the block machined 0.010 to clean it up... so that would be taking everything off... and I have to get the manifolds off somehow anyway... their rusted to hell and have a hole in them..

KED85

IF you are thinking "rebuilding" find another engine to install, as a used running long block.
WAY cheaper in the end.
Definetly find the 3.4, you can score that!!
Do the compression check first for "observation"
Everything swaps easy.
All 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 17mm, 1-19mm bolts.

Zirtbow

ok how do I do a compression check (i'm guessing I need a tool of some sort that I can find at a pep boys or something)...
next.. why is getting a 3.4 block cheaper then rebuilding a six.. i'm getting this other 6 for FREE.. so i don't see how anything can beat that price...

KED85

Here's what I mean.
First it seemed like an engine to engine swap, no "rebuild" of the long blocks.
Then you say you want to clean up bores .010.
To me, once you open up a block, it's "work & money"
A swap is just Money, no true machining work.
Finding a larger engine block to "one day' rebuild is always worth the money.
Meaning...
Rebuild a 396 Chevy or a 427 Chevy?
U sell the 396 stuff (specific stuff) to fund rebuild of the 427.
Always build/swap bigger!
If just a straight swap with new parts (like chain), that's dirt cheap.
Compression checker, I have one that have the thread into spark plug hole, crank engine over, take reading. Most accurate, cheap easy to do testing.
Investigate what ya got.
Tom P did a 2.8 swap to 2.8 swap
About a week later, the engine was toast.
Spun main bearing.

Zirtbow

Well the whole idea is that everything is my engine is rusted to hell.. literally every bolt doesn't turn.. even with rust eater stuff (it doesn't matter any brand doesn't work)... so as this engine is 100k miles I wanted to rebuild to get a lot more miles out of it (it does have a few issues that could call for fixing).. anyway since I can't turn out anything on this engine I thought getting this other v6 for free and rebuilding that one would be much less of a heartache... I'd have a better chance of turning stuff out on that one... then i'd just have to get my old engine out.. reattach the trans to the rebuilt 2.8 (mine is automatic.. the other is manual) and push it back in... I know the idea is to rebuild bigger blah blah.. but I can only afford maybe 1.1k for this whole thing.. I don't think that would cover the cost of a v8 + a swap/rebuild of a bigger v8 engine... plus as you can see I have to buy tools I need as I go along (as I don't even have anything to check the compression)... part of that 1.1k needs to cover redoinging the transmission too since it seems like it might be on its way out... so you see.. I want to just rebuild the 2.8 (even though its worthless) and slap it back in there for as many miles as possible...

KED85

NOW YA TALKING
Let's go.
Other engine
Swap on new timing chain & open pan for the new oil pump spring.
New rear seal.
Rebuild your old distributor (free labor plus parts), have injectors cleaned@$10/ea. (all the ones you get in this deal!) & replace all hoses & slam down the hood.
Spend about $300 MAX.
Tools
RENT!
BORROW!
Spend the remaining money on a rebuilt tranny job.
You'll be needing it when ya get that 3.4 block!
Just drive that block for what's left over in it's life.
Don't do much to it. Just drive it.
IF anything, maybe add 1.52 roller tipped rockers, but that's like $150 or less to budget.
BUT those would swap over to the 3.4 long block!
Check the compression check of the "other" motor before going forward.
You'll learn alot, quick!
You are shooting for 150 cylinder compression.
Good luck!
You're ahead of the game, so far!

Zirtbow

sounds good though I don't think i'll ever go to the 3.4 block.. I want to goto a firebird with a 5.7l 350 one day.. how can I check compression in the other engine.. its already out and sitting around as far as I know.. wiring harness on it is gone...

another thing I just thought of.. do I have to disconnect the manifolds to get the engine out or would it be easier to disconnect the y-pipe and pull that right out with everything? (the y-pipe is in good shape but the manifolds are screwed)... I just don't know if I can get anything up there to get the manifolds off the pipe and like I said.. everything is so freaking rusted that even if I got something in there I doubt it would turn out..

KED85

Tough call.
The bolts for manifolds are 10mm.
You want to preserve the Y pipe best ya can.
May end up taking the Y pipe out with car!
Mix & match the best ya can
What's the history of the other block.
I hear ya on a V-8 ride.
You're gonna do great with this swap with checking other engine before you even turn a wrench.
Should be away to check.
What do plugs look like?
Outside of engine?
Clean?
All clues.....

Zirtbow

Well I don't know anything of the other v6 (haven't even seen it yet) other then he said it was running when he took it out and he has no use for it... he is putting in a 355 or 383.. i 4got which.. so I can get it if I want it.. it originally had a manual and I think he said it wasn't MPFI... either way.. like I said.. mine is all rusted and I want it mostly since things will turn out on it and I won't have to wrestle with so many non turning bolts... I don't want to do a manual swap so i'm just getting the engine and going to try and get my automatic trans on it.. I should pick up the other one in a few days here.. either way I could probably use some brackets off of it if nothing else on it will work for me..

Thanks for all the help KED.. seems like your one of the few that knows a lot about a v6... that or i'm assuming TomP hasn't read this post yet...

KED85

I've been reading about these 60* mills since 1980.
I finally got one in 1989 (the 85 Blazer)
The Firebird came in 1999.
If ya cheap & ya break things enough you find your way around.
MANY times the stuff for these 60* mills comes free.
BUT make sure SOMEHOW it's worth the effort for swapping in.
IT may end up just selling all the engines & parts is best solution to score a V-8 ride you seek anyway.
Carb stuff is to 1985 (V-6) for Blazers & 1984 for the cars.
After that 2.8 TBI Blazers & 2.8 MPFI cars.
Glad to help ya with decision
Observe all ideas, before ya turn a wrench.
Find cheapest/lazy labor way out

Zirtbow

What? No advice from TomP?

TomP

TomP doesn't come in on weekends unless he screws up something on his car! (I look at computers all week) And yesterday TomP went to a junkyard to get some 28 spline axleshafts, spent a couple hours trying to safely raise the Firebird off the junkyard ground (someone took the tires), only to have a pinion lock bolt snap on him, and the whole axle is useless, dammit!

If your friend did pull it from an '89 Firebird, it had to be injected. For it being behind a manual trans, supposedly, the extra "abuse" from a clutch can increase the endplay on the crank. This could be seen by "prying" the crank pulley away from the engine. If it moves alot, the end play is large! I think the only fix is to have extra metal welded onto the crank to eliminate the endplay. You can also buy rebuilt 2.8 cranks from places like http://www.northernautoparts.com - you send in your crank for a core charge. One disadvantage? The crank you get back might be underground to it's minimum. If the motor's been sitting for a while, you might want to tear it down and inspect it. You might also want to rebuild it, and not your motor. Oh wait; that's what you mean, right?

In '89, Gm went to "lightened, lathe-turned pistons" for the 2.8, out of my book "rebuilding your 60 degree v6" by Tom Currao- it's out of print, but http://www.bn.com might be able to find you a copy. Lathe-turned usually means forged, as opposed to cast (hot metal poured into a mold). A lighter rotating mass should help the motor rev up faster, and as you know, forged is stronger than cast. But, if the cylinder walls are scored enough, and you need to bore the cylinders, you'll have to lose those factory pistons. A place like PAW wants an additional $300 for forged 2.8 pistons- IMO, not worth it. Guys on the power adder board have run small nitrous shots with cast pistons- as long as you'd keep a "future" (if any!) NOx shot low, and you have enough fuel, you'd probably be fine.

View a melted-2.8 for $100-2.8 swap here: http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen I'm the guy posing with both motors, one on a lift, one on a hoist. The motor was never diagnosed as to why it was bad; supposedly, there was a knock. I never got my butt over there to check it out, and found out later that the kid sold it to a junkyard for a couple bux. (Shame!) It might've been a lifter, a bearing, and the same kid a few months later said his friend said it might've been an exhaust leak. (gasp) We never retorqued any bolts... at least I wasn't there if he did, so the manifolds could've loosened. A lot of things went sour with that swap. For instance, I told him to change the oil after an hour or so of run-time, and then change it again the next day. He never did- the motor sat for a while in a garage... combined with all the moly grease and any loose rust and any sludge and etc- that oil filter could've clogged asap! He drove the car for a week or two on that oil & oil filter. We never got the timing correct because the EST bypass connector was missing! Vacuum lines were a mess, and there could've been leaks. Bottom line: take your time. Don't snap vac lines. Don't rev a motor that's just been started up to redline. Change the oil quick.

Ah, what was I talking about...? Oh yeah, which one would you rebuild? If it's not the free one, at least, change the oil pump or clean the pickup of sludge... same with the inside of the oil pan. Spin the distributor to build up oil pressure as a pre-lube using a power drill and 3/8" extension and socket; use a cheap mechanical gauge as "proof" that you get oil pressure. This would be covered in any engine rebuilding book; I suggest if you can't find the Tom Currao manual, find a V8 rebuilding book.

Zirtbow

Ya you told me about your friend's blown 2.8 in another post.. thats what had me worried with this rebuild.. i'm afraid i'll rebuild.. slap it in there.. go a few miles to work and back.. and boom.. its done... and i'm planning on rebuilding the one out of what I think is an 89 firebird... that will be easier since its out already.. getting my current engine/trans out though.. thats another story... =/

Zirtbow

*POKE*

GhostRider84

I think it would be cool to have a 2.8 in your garage to rebuild, at your leasure - take your time do it right. Don't worry so much about the cost - you can buy the parts one at a time as you have some extra cash. Paint it up nice, send some stuff out to be chromed. If you deside not to put it in your car - put a round glass top on it and use it as a coffee table!!

This could be a great hobby. You want to spend LOTS of money take up fishing or golf.

GhostRider84

P.S. Like KID85 said borrow as many of the tools, that youre likely to use only once, as you can - most auto parts chains have some kind of lending program. You aren't going to use a valve spring compressor that often. Many tool rental places have all kinds of stuff - I rented an engine hoist from U-Haul, its on wheels. Hook it to your ball hitch and drag it home.

Another thought, if you haven't built an engine from scratch before you may be more comfortable tearing it down and swapping the core for a short block - If you check all the prices + tools + gaskets + your time etc - the price isn't that much more. So.... ask if they will take a 2.8 on trade for a 3.4 . They may supprise you. The reassembly should be about the same. Get every thing unbolted ready to come out. Rent your hoist - pull your old engine AND transmission out - hook the new motor to the trany - put it in. Allow PLENTY of time for this you WILL hit snags along the way. Have a friend to help - stay out of the beer till done; I've seen some weird hook ups from not following this last rule!