82-T/A [Work]

(flame suit on)...

I'm curious, I've been reading on this board here and there, I no longer own a 3rd gen (though I want to get another one as soon as my other projects are done), but I am very familiar with the V6 you guys have since it's the same motor as in the V6 Fiero.

In any case, some of the 'mods' I've read on here, I wonder why you guys even do them?

First, the Throttle Body Bypass mod.... why would you bypass the throttle body? GM runs coolant through those lines to the throttle body to keep it slightly heated so that it doesn't ice over in freezing weather, or in cool weather during a heavy rain.
I see people on here saying that they 'pick up' a few horsepower by doing this mod. The fact remains however, if you were to actually dyno your car, before and after, any change it WOULD have made would be so insignificant that it wouldn't even show UP on a dyno. If you guys really wanted to do it right, you would install a VALVE at the end of the copper tubing which would prevent a flow of coolant. That way it's still there if you ever were driving in cool weather.

The next thing are replacing your computer chips.... I am guilty of this as well. I replaced the chip on my V6 with one from Hypertech, a ThermoMaster.... what a waste of money... I THOUGHT I felt a difference, but it was truely JUST in my head... there was no real SEAT of the pants feeling that I had. The only feeling I did get, was that my computer had been reset, and it was running a tad rich while the computer tried to re-learn the fuel mapping curves. As soon as the computer was back to normal.. the new chip felt exactly the same as the old chip did. plain and simple. It cost me about $174 dollars. If "I" didn't feel a difference, I seriously doubt it makes any REAL difference on a Camaro V6/60. Stock for stock, the V6 in the Fiero has more hp and torque than the V6/60 2.8 OR 3.1 in the f-body. It's ESPECIALLY a waste of money on a car that's otherwise completely stock too.


Anyway, I'm not trying to be a dick.. but I just feel bad that some of you guys spend your money on parts like this...
buying a chip for the 3rd gen MPFI system is like buying a fart tip for a Honda Civic.. it doesn't do a damn thing.



Thoughts? Comments?


Todd,
1997 Pontiac GrandAm SE
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 Y99
1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE WS6
1981 Pontiac TransAm (350sbc)

82-T/A [Work]

I might add, GM installs the coolant lines in the throttle body to help the car warm up. It functions in the same mannar as the THERMAC valve does on TBI and carbureted GM engines.

Todd,
1997 Pontiac GrandAm SE
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 Y99
1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE WS6
1981 Pontiac TransAm (350sbc)

MDv6man

Okay I'll bite. Did you do a search on this mod on the site? If not, I will add that the TB bypass is done to provide additional cooling to the air coming in to the plenum. There is no fuel going through the upper plenum as the air and fuel meet and mix at the intake manifold. Now that hot coolant "may" have some benefit in cold weather but not in the summer. The coolant flowing through there and warms up the incoming air thereby reducing the density of the air. Colder air is better for performance (on any engine) so that's why we do it.

For the THERMAC function, OK sounds right. The idea for a valve may be good as well. But let me ask you this -- How many people do you see with a modded V-8 still using the original THERMAC Air cleaner? I thought so. Most of them throw a nice chrome open element on there to increase air flow.

I really can't comment on the chip as I never did buy one. However, I did read in the classic industries catalog about the Thermomaster vs Powermaster chips by Hypertech. The Thermomaster was designed to make the car run cooler (I think) where as the Powermaster chip had the better performance curve. I don't know what everyone that did get a chip got, but maybe a Powermaster would have been a better investment.

Finally, you tell us our gains are minimal. Okay but are we really interested in dyno #'s? I'm not. I think most everyone on here is interested in a mod that one can "feel" over seeing a dyno improvement.

At least we don't put Fart Tips on our third gens...

82-T/A [Work]

Yeah, true MDv6man....

I do know that the cooler the air, the more dense the air will be. However, I just look at it from a functionality view point.. it just seems ashame to butcher part of the car that works perfectly by itself, when in reality, when it all comes down to it, it makes almost NO diffference at all... sure, there IS a difference, but it's soo insignificant that I'd be willing to bet my next 100 paychecks that the "seat of the pants" feeling that people get is merely a placebo affect.

As far as the chips go, the ThermoMaster is the EXACT same thing as the PowerMaster. The only difference is that the ThermoMaster (more expensive) has additional functionality to work with a 160 degree thermostat.

In all honesty, a Chip is not a BAD thing to get.. so long as you've already done everything else.... IE: you have a new cam, new intake, etc etc etc..... installing an aftermarket chip on an otherwise completely stock car is pointless.

As far as performance gains go... K&N air filter and a bypassed throttle body does not make an engine suddenly become "modded".


Anyway, no hard feelings to anyone that's about to bash me... I just feel bad for you guys spending all this money. You can get a BRAND NEW Crane CompuCAM from Crane Cams that will improve the performance of your motor by 15-20% (in REALITY terms)... for a mere $120 bucks. That's like quite a few Jacksons cheaper than a ThermoMaster chip.

Not only that.. you can get a set of NICE 1.52:1 roller rockers to replace the STAMPED 1.5:1 flat rockers for $119 for our motors.

Believe you me... going from 1.5 flat rockers to 1.52:1 roller rockers makes a NICE bit of difference. And THIS is somethign that's easy for a 'novice' to do. All you do is remove the valve covers (requires removal of intake plenum / runners), remove the old rocker arms, install the new ones, set the valve lash, and you can gain some really decent hp, including the fact.. that your engine WILL run more balanced, and efficient.

The STAMPED flat 1.5:1 rockers are very poorly made.. and often times... the ratio can be as far off as 1.46 even....

going to the Crane 1.52:1 roller rockers guarantees that you are running at 1.52:1 ratio on ALL cyls. IN ADDITION... the roller rockers also significantly lower the friction on the drive train...
this allows the revs to get up quicker.. which equates to quicker acceleration with the SAME horsepower. (however, you WILL gain more horspower with the slight ratio change).


Todd

LinuxGuy

iTrader: (1)

82-T/A [Work]:
Thanks for the concern about our buying and modding habits, you bring up some good points. I think (at least in my case) the reason that people do these modifications to our 3rd gen V6's is because they are our cars, and we like 'em. When there is another mod that we can do that has even a small gain, many will do it - if not for any HP gain, but for fun. I don't know if the TB coolant bypass gives any performance gain or not (although I think the point about cooler air is quite valid), nor do I know anything about aftermarket chips. But, I do know that if you've got the free money or time, and really want to give something a try (especially if you have done some reading into it), you might as well go for it - but one has to be cautious too.

Am I going to do the TB bypass? No, not interested at this point, and it gets rather cold around here at times. A chip? No, maybe WAY down the road. Howerver, your points about the cam and roller rockers is quite true, and are definitely on my wish list.

MDv6man:
And it's a damned good thing thing to! I hate those things, freakin' coffee can exhaust!

MDv6man

Well I wouldn't get too upset over a couple of hoses being re-routed. Butchering? Nah, no one's taking a hacksaw to the stuff and it's easy to change back. You make it sound like we're tearing apart a '63 vette or something for no apparent reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not mod crazy either. I've only done a few things to my Camaros and plan to keep the GTO as stock as possible.

I can understand how what we do may be considered hacking from a Fiero owners standpoint. Those cars have more of a "cult" following and are more rare and valuable.

V6 thirdgens are a whole different animal. 99.9% aren't worth much (TTA excluded) except to the owner and the owner may do what he or she pleases

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

I agree that most of these mods do very little, if anything, but a) they're free and easy, and can't hurt anything
and b) this removes a bunch of ugly clutter and makes it easier to work on the car...you no longer have to worry about spilling coolant and getting to the hard to reach clamps when you remove the upper plenum

Plus, if you live in GA (like me and Redraif), or someplace with a similar climate, the TB coolant will never be needed.

I think this mod is popular because its low/zero buck...if someone wants to replace the cam or do heavier mods to their V6, more power to them. On Redraif's 87, though, we will be putting the money towards a V8. After all, if its true performance you want (no flame to V6ers intended), you need a V8 or at least a better 6.

TomP

Todd, where ya been? Haven't seen you here in ages!

I've had my TB bypassed since '96 or '97, and live in NJ. My throttle body has never frozen. Even if it did, a few seconds on a running motor would unfreeze it- like you said, everything heats up. This isn't as much a dyno mod as it is a "street" mod, just like a ram-air intake. And like theory says, cooler intake air/fuel = more hp, then bypassing the TB certainly can't hurt.

(MDv6, I actually DO plan on taking a hacksaw to the thing, and cutting out those TB coolant pipes completely! I'll just run straight heater hose to the heater. As it is now, I don't have those heater pipes on the passenger frame rail, heater hose comes from my water pump and goes right to the heater core)

And my ADS chip is out of the computer and back in it's box in the basement, thanks to Glenn91L98GTA. I used to recommend a chip after intake and exhaust, if you look back the past couple years, I haven't mentioned a chip since Glenn steered us straight. Now I believe that the only chip we should use is one we burn ourselves- but you can't spring that on a "newbie" to the f-body V6.

Don't forget that the TPI V8 guys also do the TB bypass and off-the-shelf computer chips.

Don't forget too that newer 4th gens (either 93-94 3.4 or 95-now 3.8, can't remember) don't have a TB bypass on their V6.

And it'll be very rare to find a "newbie" that can do a cam swap or rocker change. They'll want to bring it to a shop instead of spending the money for the GM Service Manual from http://www.helminc.com - and then the cam goes from $120 to $600. Plus the fact that no aftermarket cam is CARB certified- none of them are smog legal. That doesn't mean that the compucam won't pass emissions.. but it is a risk.

TomP

Oh and for any new guys from the past two years, Todd knows his stuff, here's one old "flash from the past": https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=59938

82-T/A [Work]

Hey Tom! What's up? Dude.. I gotta tell you.... this 'new' 81 TransAm I have is really sweet... but.... every time I see an 82-83 TransAm.. I get all sad and stuff. I honestly would rather have my 82 TransAm again..... and I can't help but think how nice the 350 sbc I dropped in the 81 would be in my 82 TransAm...


I totally forgot about that PORT & POLISH post that I made... that motor ended up with a spun bearing less than a week after I did all the porting work....


Unfortunately... having the motor overheat as it did (waterpump failed, and I didn't notice) it caused
far too much wear on the bottom end and all it took was one heavy joy ride to cause it to slip.
But damn, I swear... for that whole week before the bearing spun... that port and polish job made a HUGE
difference.. you know how conservatively **** I am when it comes to judging performance gains....
I honestly felt like I gained ~10 horsepower just from the plenum/intake/runners and head porting job.
And maybe an entire ~15-16hp when combined with the ported exhaust manifolds. 3rd gen f-body owners won't
notice AS BIG of a difference when porting exhaust manifolds.. (they're better stock than Fiero exhaust
manifolds are).

But I definately suggest that whole port and polish to anyone who's daring, or anyone who has to have a
valve job done anyway.

Todd

82-T/A [Work]

By the way TomB, check out the pics of the 81 T/A I recently aquired...

http://community.webshots.com/user/todd82ta

The pictures of it sitting in a field are from the owners backyard that I bought it from. It had been sitting there for a few years.

I bought it minus the motor.

I owned a 1976 Chevy Camaro that someone gave to me for free... the car was soo badly rusted that I had to junk it.
But one good thing is that it had a ~360 hp V8 in it.. the block was a 4-bolt 350 from a 1974 Imapala
Police car, and the heads are 'double pyramid' heads from a 1971/1972 Chevy Corvette.

I'm dropping that in the 81 T/A. Actually.. as you can see, it's already in there..

I've made more progress but I haven't taken any new pictures in the past 2 months. You can see the
prgression in the pictures under "Tear Down".

Todd

stuart69427

You try getting that into some of these guys heads they just won't listen sometimes! And come back complaining why they just wasted money!

I dunno about the rest of everybody thoughts, but I like my TB Bypass. Its FREE!!!! If gains are only insignificant, who cares, the mod was FREE! You won't see me complaining! I like that I can touch my TB after taking a long trip and still know that my incoming air is just slightly colder!

TomP

Ha, I always thought the Fiero exhaust manifolds were better than the f-body manifolds! I have a spare set, and looked at porting 'em, there's not much to port. In some areas, doing some porting looks like it would make the walls too thin, and maybe compromise the strength of the manifold. I did find an odd spot for power- the "donuts" that went between the manifold and y-pipe. Gm has machined them with two bores, a large one on the manifold side, and a thinner one on the y-pipe side. Consequently, there's a large step in the bore with a sharp ridge. I started using a grinder to take the ridge down, but it was taking too long, so I used a round file- it worked much faster. Then I used the air grinder for a final polish- and I actually felt a bit of a kick in the butt! Didn't expect that. I think it was worth it for $0 and a couple hours of fighting rusty manifold-to-y-pipe nuts.

Too bad about the Fiero motor, I remember the fun you were having with it. I've got that port/polish message saved on my computer, for when I finally get around to doing the work. Right now, I've got too much extra stuff- gotta replace my quarter panel (see https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=108890 ), paint the car (see https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=122724 ), rebuild the trans, get a new posi for my "new" 3.73/posi/disc axle from an '84 trans am, then rebuild the motor. Where the hell did summer go? I've got a month before college kicks in again. I'm hoping to get the 1/4 welded on and the paint job done by then. I estimate the 1/4 will take me 4 days, most of that because I have to drop the f'ing gas tank down - again, for the 3rd time! - because I'll be welding right over where the tank would be. But that's okay, because the welding will be much more simple than replacing the actual quarter panel as a panel instead of a half-a-car.

That 81's a hell of a nice grab! Lots of rust on it, though! Did the rad support unbolt, or did you cut it off with a torch? What are your plans with the car? Drag racer, daily driver, "by the numbers" interior restoration...? Did you decide on a trans yet? Looks like it's got an auto, is it the TH-350 or TH-400?

TomP

LOL! Yeah, nothing beats free! Plus, it's an easy mod. Some guys like to remove their carpet, rip the padding off, and put the carpet back in. When I changed my carpet, for the hell of it, I ripped the old padding off the old carpet, and lifted it up- I swear, it didn't weigh more than an unopened soda can. Might as well just skip lunch or clean out the center console! I feel bad for the guys that actually did it, only to find out how light the stuff was.

82-T/A [Work]

Actually... I'm not soo upset about it. (Fiero).
Having spun a bearing, it FORCED me to buy the GrandAM that I have now.. it's a 4-door, and gets 34 miles to the gallon!

In any case though, I spent about $800 bucks on performance parts for the Fiero when I get the time to rebuild it. The car sits under a car cover... when I'm done with the T/A, I'll put the Fiero in there.

I bought a 3.1 crank, and new Hyperutectic pistons and a bunch of other goodies.. including a new Crane CompuCAMS camshaft as well as all the other mods I had before (roller rockers, SI stainless steel racing valves).

The only thing that needs to be done is to have the bottom end rebuilt. It's getitng bored .020 over, so when completed, it will be a 3.2 liter V6/60.

Should be pretty sweet!

I'm expecting a conservative estimate of about ~195-200 horsepower and a little more than that in torque. I expect low 14s with teh automatic.

I actually already have all the parts, they're just sitting in my closet. The car still runs fine.. I just can't give it any power because anything over 2,500 rpms.. it knocks.


As for the 81 TransAm, there was a LOT of rust up front... the core support was trashed... I ended up throwing it out.

It still, however, just unbolted perfectly. The GOOD thing is though, that the majority of the body itself (meaning the pieces that can not be unbolted) is relatively rust free. The cowl area is good, and there is no rust INSIDE the car.

You probably noticed the rust at the base of the rear windows... those can be replaced. The rear valence where the rear bumper attaches to the frame is rusted too.. other than that, it's rust free.

The reason why I'm fixing up this car is because it has the C&C ttops which are EXTREMELY rare for 2nd gens. 99% of the ttops made for the 2nd gens were made by either Hurst, or Fischer. The company Cars & Concepts were contracted to pick up the slack in producing ttop 2nd gens when Fischer and Hurst were too overwhelmed.

In addition, the design of the ttops for the 3rd gen were done in part by C&C. C&C also did ALL of the ttops for the Pontiac Fiero.

They're awesome TTOPs because they made less than ~80 or so C&C TTOP 81 Firebird f-bodies.

They're particularly good too because they are 20% larger than the fischer and hurst ttops.. they're also more modern looking.

The weld-in support in the T portion of the roof is also better on the C&C ttops.


Todd

Ovrclck350

Without reading any replies, i'll answer.

TB Coolant Bypass=I haven't done this, nor do I plan to waste my time to do it, but the TB Coolant setup is useless if you live in a warm climate, and I'd contest that it does nothing to help warm the car up, as it takes the car warming to even get the coolant warm enough to be effective. In theory, you could pick up SOME Hp, by helping the incoming air be a tad cooler, but I do doubt it's measurable.


Chips=I won't sit here and go into reasoning or anything, but my Jet Stage 2 took me from a 17.2 to a 16.9 with no other mods.

Bluerocket

Nice t/a probally came stock with a 301 turbo but they look nice.
Oh and by the way that must be the Ultra rare 89 fiero becuse They stoped makening fieros in 88

Ryan_Alswede

Thank you 82-T/A [Work] Finally somebody who knows that K&N air filters and a bypassed throttle body are a bunch of BS.

Yep with out the CAM a chip is worthless because the extra fuel never makes it into the cylinder.

Yes these dumb mods like a K & N can hurt because a K & N lets in more dirt into the engine. Check the Micron filter ratings if you don't believe me. Besides for all that risk you only gain 2hp and it's hp you never get to use becuase it's on the high end.

Somebody once said on the board that "money=speed" or something like that, the reason the bypass mod is free is becuase it doesn't do anything.

82-T/A [Work]

Yeah, exactly!!

However, you can make power without THAT much money, but it just requires more common sense.

IE: Port / Polish work....

keeping the car properly tuned up...


Todd

fatass

that's why i'm not even bothering trying to sup up my V6, i bought a 350 small block and i'm gonna sup that up and have a sweet *** sleeper.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

I won't claim ANY mod you do to the 2.8 is going to give you a bunch of power...no offense to anyone here, but its the biggest POS of an engine I have ever had the misfortune of working on. Sure, a cam might give you 20hp, but so what...oooh, you're going to scare a bunch of import guys with 160hp in a 3500lb car Most people here are either a) trying to get the most out of their engine on a budget, because they don't want/need/can't afford a V8 or b) planning to swap in a V8 later. No one thinks the tb bypass or a K&N filter is going to make their car a screamer; its free in the case of the TB bypass, and there is no documented case of it EVER hurting anything! It cleans up the engine compartement and eliminates at least one ugly hose, two clamps, and makes it quicker/easier to remove the upper plenum. For those reasons alone, its worth doing. If it doesn't make any more power, so what. It was FREE!

I'll agree that a K&N won't give you massive gains either, but its worth doing, if for no reason than you won't have to ever buy another one. From the K&N website:

The OEM minimum specification is 96% with ISO (International Organization for Standardization) test dust which consists of a majority of 0 to 5 micron particles but some up to 20 microns in size. Test results showed that a paper filter has a 99.29% cumulative efficiency and a 96.47% initial pass. A K&N filter, with far less restriction than paper, has a 99.05% cumulative efficiency and a 97.11% initial pass.

To put that into perspective, a 10 micron particle is invisible to the naked eye. At work I use a particle meter quite often (automotive paint industry), and if you do so much as pull lightly at at a CLEAN shirt it will register in the 100s (of particles), all of the particles being over 10 microns. So yes, the K&N isn't as effecient as a CLEAN paper filter, but the difference in filtering ability is insignificant. Its definitely not going to hurt your engine.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Porting and polishing will do little good on a relatively low RPM engine like a 2.8. If you bumped the compression, put in a better cam,lighter valvetrain, etc, and had balanced your rotating assembly (so it could rev higher, reliably), it would help, but for the average bolt on modded V6 out there...nope. All it would do is kill torque, which is the only thing the little V6 has going for it to begin with. In all fairness to Todd, it sounds like he got a decent gain from this,and this is no flame of him or his porting, but his V6 is far from typical from the way it sounds... I doubt many people have the skills or patience to do that themselves.

Ryan_Alswede

LT1guy, you can put that K&N crap on your Camaro/Firebird it's a free country, but IF IT"S SO GREAT, why DON"T professional racing teams use it. All of your Nascar teams use paper, all your rally racers use paper and all the 24-hour Daytona racers us paper.

True diehard drag racers take their filter off for the 1/4 mile run.

BECAUSE IT"S BS PERIOD

LOL, yeah they say it's the last filter you will ever buy.... you guys can go have fun washing the oil/dirt out of it, I'll just put on another $3.50 from wal-mart in the parking lot and take the time I save and cruise around having fun!!

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Professional drag racers don't run Wal mart filters either...whats your point? I hardly think what a professional drag racer uses is in any way relevant to what some guy with a 17 second 3rd gen runs on his street car.A guy with sponsors and three engines in his trailer, all paid for by someone else, isn't too worried about ingesting dirt or a loose bolt occasionally. I for one would much rather clean a K&N every 10-20k than buy a new filter more often than that. Esp if you have a ram air type hood, the paper filters don't last.

NASCAR and several other racing series use paper filters because ITS IN THE RULES..they cannot run any filter with a tack barrier, whether oil or some other substance. If they could use a better filter they probably would.

Ryan_Alswede

Wal-Mart doesn't make filters, LOL I'm talking FRAM. They have been around since 1934. They've got a new Triad™ fiber technology air filter, go read about it on their web site under news.

82-T/A [Work]

Hey LT1 Guy.... you're wrong. The 2.8 is not the crappiest motor ever built. If you're used to working on ONLY LS1 V8s, and Ferrari Motors.. then yeah, sure...


I beg to differe though, the 2.8 V6/60 is a fairly decent motor. It's pretty well balanced, and puts out quite a decent amount of torque.

Obviously GM thinks it's a nice motor, they still use it in the new Pontiac Grand Ams as their top of the line motor.

The 2.8/3.1/3.4 responds VERY well to modifications.

I'll admit, a V6/60 in an f-body is a SMALL motor considering the weight of the car, but that doesn't mean it's a crappy motor.

I'm rebuilding my 2.8 V6, for about $1,000 bucks, I'm gaining over 60 horsepower on my 2.8 liter.

- Crane CompuCAMS Camshaft, improves mid to high end RPM power.

- 3.1 Crank
- All new connecting rods, balanced to within 1/4th of a gram.
- 1.52:1 Crane Roller Rockers
- Hyperutectic pistons, with block bored 0.020 over.
- COMPLETE port-match and polish of the entire intake, heads, and exhaust manifolds.

just to name a few..

The car was running mid 15s with ONLY the port-matching mentioned.

With everything else I've mentioned, the car will conservatively have 195-200 horsepower up from the standard 140hp / 175lbs of torque.

The 2.8 in the Fiero is a bit different, larger throttle body stock, and the 2.8 Fiero is the HO version that comes from teh factory with 3.4 heads.

And by the way, I've never heard of "PORT-MATCHING" to be harmful to an engine's low end torque.

Which by the way, is what I did... if you really did do work on the motor, you would have removed the intake pieces and seen how badly they needed to be port matched.


You're LT1 might be fancy, but that doesn't mean any other motor is crap? I've got a carbed ~360 hp 350 4-bolt with Corvette Camel heads sitting in an 81 T/A that would put youre LT1 to shame.


Todd

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, I agree port matching will not hurt torque...I meant full on porting of the heads and intake.The intakes do badly need port matching, and yes Shannon and I have done that on her 2.8. Your opinion of the 2.8 is your own, and I will admit that in a lighter car it might be ok, but my point was that as far as GM V6s go its one of the worst for a performance application. You would see a lot more Fbodies with their V6s still in them had GM installed 3.8s or 4.3s, both engines with far better aftermarket support and far more potential. 15s from a 2.8 are admirable, but some of us want to go faster than that.

I didn't say any other motor is crap, or try to shove LT1s or LS1s or any other motor down your throat as the end all, be all, performance engine. I just don't like 2.8s. I'd rather spend the same $1000 towards a V8.

82-T/A [Work]

Yeah, if you remember, it's the intake runners that are the worst part of that motor.

The 2.8 V6/60 WAS used as a track motor for a short while.. there are plenty of performance parts for the motor.... but most of them are for the carbed version of the engine. It was very popular back in the day for the Chevy Blazer 4x4.

Mid 15s was what my AUTOMATIC 1987 Fiero SE / V6 ran STOCK.

I had a 1985 Fiero GT 4-speed a couple years ago, that ran a 14.82 at 89.3 miles an hour.. COMPLETELY STOCK motor...

the only modifications to the car was a completely straight exhaust, a 4-speed manual from a Cavalier 4 cyl, it was the same tranny as I had in hte 85 GT but this one had a higher gear ratio, 4.10:1 instead of 3.65:1. It was a bare bones stripper Fiero GT. Only thing it came with was A/C, and the "leather package". A/C was disconnected anyway

OH, and it ran that at 147 thousand miles... I later sold the car for $1,600 bucks to some guy in Ohio who flew down to pick it up.. sold it to him with 163 thousand miles on it.. he drove it for another 20-25 thousand miles before he snapped the half shafts in the rear when doing a burnout.

But hey, to each their own.. ya know? The 2.8 V6/60 is a decent motor.... it's MUCH easier to get more power out of a V8 than the 2.8 V6. But with these newer cars having computers in them, it's also MUCH EASIER to modify your current engine, or to swap in a 3.4 block rather than to install a V8 and have to either change out the computer, or get rid of it all together.


One thing though, I guarantee to you, that they sell all the same performance parts for the V6/60 as they do for a small block chevy. I mean that... for any kind of performance part for a V8, they sell something similar for the V6.

Todd

TomP

Yeah, but you can buy Fram filters at Walmart. And you use Fram? (gasp) I hope you don't use a Fram oil filter.... guess you haven't heard about fram's "quality". Do a search on thirdgen.org for "Fram" and see what you come up with. You'd be better off using an AC Delco "paper" filter than a Fram filter.

And that whole "K&N's let in dirt" thing has been beaten around for years. Funny how people who've used K&N's for years haven't had any problems.... and if K&N's were that bad, they would've been sued and bankrupted by now.

82-T/A, they don't sell headers!

TomP

One problem with that statement; the 2.8 V6 was the economy motor for the Firebird & Camaro. It was the performance motor for the Fiero. And while I agree about your "TB bypass is okay to do" statement, I have to disagree with the idea the 2.8 is the crappiest motor ever made. It's no HP powerplant, but it runs fine. I see a "crappiest motor ever made" as something like the Dodge 2.2's, always blowing head gaskets. That's crappy.

82-T/A [Work]

They make lots of headers available for the 2.8/3.1/3.4

You just have to know where to get them.. AND... they don't make them SPECIFICALLY for the thirdgen.


You can buy a set of headers for the thirdgen that will fit, but you'll need a custome y-pipe.

Todd

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

I may be a bit biased against it...Shannon's (Redraif's) motor was worked on by a lot of very questionable mechanics over the years, and was in pretty sad shape when I first met her. Exhaust leaks, backfiring, broken exhaust studs...you name it. With the help of this board (esp the dist rebuild), the service manual, and a lot of hard work it runs at least as well as any other mostly stock 2.8, but considering the cars I am used to...modded LT1s and LS1s, Buick GNs, several 5.0 Mustangs...its a dog. Its not a performance engine, at least not in a heavy F-body, and it wasn't intended to be,but neither is the 3800 that comes in the 4th gen V6 cars, and I have seen low 15s stock from them. Believe me, if that 2.8 could be built to turn in respectable times (at least mid 13s) for a somewhat reasonable amount of money we would keep it, just to be different. Thats not the case though. I can't find anybody here who has ever gone faster than 15s, and thats not enough to keep the imports at bay, much less any domestic muscle. For that reason we are doing a V8 swap...what V8 is undecided, though retaining EFI and daily driveability are the major concerns. It may be LS1, LT1, or possibly a 406, and each will bring with it many challenges, but at least mid 12s in the quarter will be fairly easy with any of them. This isn't a flame of anyone's efforts with the little V6 by any means, we just want more than it can deliver.

Ryan_Alswede

Another thing that should be brought up in this post are people who buy those split fire spark plugs. Time and Time again people have had problems with those plugs making two flame fronts in the cylinder casusing knocking and then the computer retards giving you no benfit. Do a search if you don't believe me. Also there was a guy a while back that was using the 6A box with them and it was not firing to the tip of the eletrode but to the side and burning it off. Wish I could remember the guy...

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

The factory platinum plugs in the new LS1 cars are pretty bad, too...the platinum tips fall off, increasing the gap tremendously, and tha cars run like crap...not to mention what the little platinum piece could do! A friend with a 2000 WS6 heard a rattling in his exhaust, and sure enough it was aa couple tips from his plugs! 100,000 miles...yeah, right !

TomP

That guy is me! And I ran splitfires since I bought the car in 1994, with a few months in '95 on Accel U-grooves- then I went back to Splitfires. From '94 to the time I put the MSD box on in November of 2000 (yeah that's 6 years), I never had a problem. The Splitfires apparently can't take the extra voltage of the MSD box. People saw similar problems with this combination, but went to AC plugs, and were fine. I'm now running the stock AC plugs.

But either way, that's utterly ridiculous about two flame fronts! Electricity takes the path of least resistance- please don't tell me you think the spark splits into a "V"? There's only one spark. The idea of the Splitfire was to expose more of the flame to the cylinder- almost exactly like a "cut plug". There's plenty of people that run cut plugs and they never see any problems. There's nothing in the design of the Splitfire that would cause knocking!! What guy told you this? The only thing I know of that causes two flame fronts is extreme cylinder compression paired with low octane gasoline- the hot plug (without spark) fires the a/f mix. So you get an explosion from spark, and an explosion from the extreme heat of the plug.

And those idiots that sued Splitfire because the plugs damaged their engine were full of crap. They were "oh so panicked" because when their engine was running poorly, they pulled the Splitfires and found a most shocking thing! Their plugs were covered in oil! Oh My Gawd, The Plugs Broke The Engine. Maybe they should've bought a plug with the correct heat range. Or, maybe their engine was so shot to hell already that they should've gone one heat range higher. (Ex, SF2C to a SF2D) A cold plug can't reach it's self-cleaning temperature as quickly, and that means it can't burn off any oil deposits- oil from leaking valve seals or leaking rings or etc. Hell, you can buy a normal R45 plug from AC with too cold a heat range, and surprise surprise, it'll start misfiring, and when you pull it, it'll be covered in oily deposits. But instead, the idiots yell "fire" in a crowded movie theatre, and freak everyone out. But these were the same people that thought the Splitfire made the spark split into a "V"! Nevermind that even the photos of a Splitfire spark never showed a "V" shaped spark! What the photos did show was more of the flame being exposed to the a/f mix- just like a cut plug.

Besides, 85-89 2.8 MPFI motors don't even have a knock sensor.

Ryan_Alswede

I NEVER said it made a V shape. Over on the engine boards the guys had posted about when it sparks the electricity jumps to many points on the eletrode causing in some cases a dual flame front. TomP I'm not making it up, I won't have said anything if I hadn't read it with my own two eyes. When I get more time I'll find that post and E-MAIL it to you.

TomP

Ouch, you were lied to, dude. Electricity does NOT jump to two points! It's impossible. Electricity takes the shortest path between two points. Those guys probably don't know their physics. If you find the message, post the link up here!

TomP

And actually, I should point out that I never said Splitfires were the best thing out there since pizza. I've always given my experiences with 'em... which might be better than other people's, simply because I never expected 20 horsepower out of them. Actually, I don't even think I ever even recommended Splitfires to anyone, except along the lines of "any plug will work, I use splitfires". Hm; I'll have to do a search on that... Splitfires, by TomP.

devianb

I know the little mods don't add up to any real significant horsepower, but they do help my engine run better. I bought my car because I liked the body style and it just happened to only have 6 cylinders. 90% of the time I drive slow. I like to cruise while listening to music and enjoying the scenery. I will be spending a lot of money on my V6 just to make run better. I don't care about making this car go fast. It is my first car so it is special. Not many people still have thier first car. If it were my second car there would be no way in hell I would put a dime into that car and motor, but since its my first car, I give it special attention. I'm saving for an Alpina tuned BMW. Any year after 1980 is fine for me. Even the slowest of the Alpinas were fast.

KED85

Had a BMW
Stood for
BIG
MONEY
WASTER
Not being mean, they nice cars, but, really BMW.
Go install a 3.4 long block, used, running for way less that $1,000 for a 3.1 rebuild.
Should be easy to locate a used complete running 3.4 block.

devianb

hey ked85. The BMWs that I am referring to are the Alpina BMWs, specifically the old 6 series. These cars were sent out from the BMW factory to Alpina. Alpina rebored the engines, ported and polished some things and on top of that added a powerfull turbo. Most of them had 300 horsepower, but a select few had 385 hp. They may be a waste of money to you, but I like and its fast and luxurious. My 87 Firebird is a waste of money too, but I still like it.

KED85

Not being mean, they nice cars,

I'll still say that, again, too.

I just would not invest my money in them, again.
Except for the
BMW M1
BMW 507
I'd settle for a ride in Bo Derek's 507, driven by her, tho, too.
Oh I CERTAINLY would take the BMW Alpine Motorcycle, I think it's the KR-1?

Believe me, I CERTAINLY respect BMW's.
I just wouldn't invest my money in them, except for those few.

devianb

I hear where you are coming from KED85. I drove a loaner BMW 318 when my car was in the shop, not exactly a steller car. I have always liked the BMW body style since I was just a lad in the 80s.

Our 2.8 or 3.1 engines don't produce significant horsepower to simple modifications like chips, pulleys, etc because our engines are lacking in technology, design, and displacement. Take a look at the FWD 60 degree engines, there are quite a few companies that offer superchargers, turbochargers, and nos kits (RK Sport for example) for them, but not us RWD cars and the parts are not transferable. That really sucks!!! Fieros had the same engine, but they were quick for one reason, their weight was sub 3000 lbs. Most Fbodies weigh in the neighborhood of 3500 lbs. Thats too much weight for a 2.8l to pull.

KED85

I had a 1970 2002 4-speed I brought back from the dead.
Was a cute car, REAL German Feeling (just like my recently departed 1975 Opel SportWagon, Fuel injected/Auto (151,000 miles, Two major wrecks & one cross country train ride!).
I really do like BMW's & especially the one Cybil Shepard drove in "Moonlighting".
I'd let her drive me, too!

Reliability, & parts, ouch!!
Example
I couldn't (but had to) justify spending $150 on a used BMW head, when I could buy a whole running Chevy V-8 long block for "same" price.

devianb

Good point KED85 and I think I will leave it at that.

82-T/A [Work]

devianb, believe me... I TOTALLY understand.....

Let me tell you, my first car was a 1984 Toyota Corolla...

during the time I was driving that car... from 16-17 (1995)... I thought it was the best car in the world.... I loved that car.

Thinking back now... I wonder WHAT THE HELL was going through my head.

Honestly though, I wasn't lucky enough to have an f-body as my first car.

My NEXT car... however, well... the FIRST car that I actually had MY NAME on the title... was a 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6.. and I STILL own it... so tell me, is THAT my first car? Or the Corolla? Because I had to share the Corolla with my brother....

Todd

KED85

There was a time, one could own an old Foreign car.
And it was "Cheap" to maintain.
I had my 1975 Opel SportWagon (FI/Auto) for 1978 - 1989.
BUT, after that BMW episode in 1989, I've stuck by GM products, even old used ones.
Why?
I can go to the local Pick your part, find 30-40 car examples for a (maybe perfect) fender at $25/$35. Yes, only the 1985 Firebird & 1985 S-10 Blazer.
I can phone up 35 different local places to find the cheapest prices on the same part.
I don't wait for the boat to come in from the "Fatherland" (& I am part German, too!).
Even today, I can go searching in a wrecking yard for old Corvette parts, easily.
I can even find that old Corvette part, on a "Buick" (If it's the Right commom GM part, only!).
BMW's are wonderful cars, but, couldn't give me one anymore.
My Sister-In-Law has a 1980's BMW 320i.
Sits in front of her house in San Jose.
I think she knows how much it costs to repair it.....
It's her "first" car, so I kinda feel for her, but......
My Brothers into Jaguars (XKE's)
He wants me to try to find parts.
NOPE.
I laughed, ask me for parts for your 1961 Corvette, I'll save ya money (I know what I'm doing).
Jag parts?
I'll give ya the phone number, you speak to him.
I don't want to know, I can't help him effectively.

devianb

In my opinion, your first true car is the one you own. When you are growing up in a house, you call it your house, but it is really your parents' house.

I'm not particularly fond of GM vehicles mechanically speaking. If I did get another GM car it would definately be a Corvette. Its like GM built those cars way better than anything most of its other models. I like Fbodies, but I just want to have another car that is different.

KED85

My first true car ended up in a farmers field to be buried
1960 Chevy wagon.
Yeah I want one again
Or a 1959 El Camino
Or a 1974 Vega Wagon or Hatchback. Really.
My old 1966 Corvette is gone.
New Vette...........
Still thinking.
New Camaro/Firebird Convertible 6-Speed?
I'M IN LINE!
I have a 1967 RS/SS 350 Convertible 4-speed & Wife has a 1968 Camaro 6 PG/Console coupe.

82-T/A [Work]

Hey KED85, do you have any pictures of your car and your wife's car? That's my favorite generation of f-body.


You buried your 1960 Chevy Wagon????