SLEEPER 86

I have a wonderful 14# preload on the pinion during final assembly, and I have minimal thread engagement on the pinion nut.
The Ratech pinion nut and washer are very thick, but I used the washer for initial setup. I did use a used outer bearing that i honed out a bit
for my initial pattern, and a Ratech smart sleeve that broke at about 50# and was done by 60???
Anyway,things don't look right.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That doesn't look right at all... looks like it should go together more, close to another ¼".

14 in-lb to turn the pinion is not enough, but that's not what's gone wrong here.

It usually takes around 150 - 180 ft-lbs to crush the sleeve. The torque on it decreases somewhat as it crushes. Which is why I hate those things; I use a spacer w shims instead, whenever possible.

It's possible you have something put on in the wrong order, or the bearing outer races not fully seated.

Are you sure all the end play is taken up out of the bearings?

big gear head

First of all let me say again that the Ratech kits are JUNK. You would be much better off trashing it right now and get a good installation kit from Randy's Ring & Pinion or Tom's Differentials. At least go to GM and get a good pinion nut and toss that piece of crap in the scrap metal pile. I hope you have the ring gear bolts with the 3/4 inch heads and not the 5/8 heads.

Something is not right about that. Something is binding or stacked up cauing it not to go together completely.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I think he means 14 in lbs drag on the new seetup, this is a good ballpark for new bearings and seal. For used stuff 7 is more like it.

The pinion yoke is noiwhere near far enough on there, take it back otu and check what's wrong. When assembling you should be able to tap the yoke on much further than that before having to put the nut on. Make sure the splines are all fine. I like to put the yoke in a vise and put some lapping compount on the pinion splines and ram the 2 together and pull them back apart a few times. If there is spline famage you need a small file. I have a feeling the splines started digging into each other and driving the nut home with an impact is going to make it all much workse.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Take it all out and check the pinion bearing. I had exactly this problem by the looks of it. I had the bigger bearing on the "new" pinion but the smaller bearing seat in the carrier housing so the pinion would not drop in all the way. I had to get the smaller bearing on the pinion and it then dropped in all the way perfectly.

SLEEPER 86

Sofa, had no end play. Everything went together fine with the original outer bearing, no binding on the yoke.
BGH, I didn't get a kit from Ratech, just shims,seal, crush sleeve, pinion nut/washer, and ring gear bolts. Bearings are from Autozone. I did get the 5/8" bolt heads. Wish I had known about that. Never read anything about small bolt heads from them, will it make a difference? Does ARP make a set?
Base91, are you saying the outer pinion bearing you got was too big for the race? If so, do you have a part number for the
correct one?

Base91

iTrader: (1)

I was putting a pinion in from another axle and it wouldn't go in far enough for the nut go on more than a few threads. It turned fine but was way too high. I found the bearing on the pinion was a bigger diameter than the seat in the carrier housing. I got the number off the original bearing and got the right size. Smaller diameter shorter rollers. It then seated perfectly to the correct depth and the nut threaded on all the way as it's supposed to. I'll see if I can find the bearing part number I had to get.

big gear head

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showth...ing+gear+bolts
Read this.

SLEEPER 86

Good info there BGH. Are the bolts recommended in that post the same as 9bolt bolts?

DRIVE2FAST

I GOT A DIFF BEARING KIT ( 2 ) PINION BRGS AND (2 ) DIF BRGS AND THEY WERE NOT THE SAME DIMENSIONS AS THE FACTORY TIMKENS FORCING ME TO RE SHIM THE DIFF ( NOT FUN )
HAD TO SET BACKLASH .011 - .013 IF I REMEMBER RIGHT AND CHECK CONTACT PATTERN ETC.
DOUBLE CHECK PINION BRG RACE DIMENSIONS AGAINST THE OLD ONES THEY MITE NOT MATCH ( MY DIFF BRGS DIDNT )
IF IT HAS A CRUSH SLEEVE IT MITE NEED MORE TORQUE. IF IT IS A SOLID SPACER THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM .

big gear head

No, the 9 bolt has different bolts. It's been a few years since I had a 9 bolt apart, but they actually only have 8 bolt in the ring gear. They were made by Borg Warner and don't use GM parts.

SLEEPER 86

After searching the web all day for 9bolt ring gear bolts I took another look at Ratech's site and they list the same part number for 9bolt and 10bolt ring gear bolts.
Hope someone finds this useful. Going to check and see if ARP makes them.
Still haven't pulled the pinion out to check the bearing and race for compatibility.

big gear head

You may be right. Like I said before, it's been years since I had a 9 bolt apart. The bolts might be the same. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

ARP does make bolts for the 10 bolt. If they are the same as the 9 bolt then you will have 2 extra when you are done.

SLEEPER 86

76 bucks for a set? Wonder why they are twice as much as almost any other ring gear bolts?

Base91

iTrader: (1)

What about the pinion seating all the way in? Did you sort that out?

SLEEPER 86

Knocked it apart today and all I can say is OOPS!
It seems I shouldn't assemble stuff during a full moon. The crush sleeve goes UNDER the outer pinion bearing, not between the bearing and yoke!
In a way I guess it's a good thing. I wouldn't have found out about having the wrong ring gear bolts if I hadn't goofed.
After all the research I did before starting this project, I can't believe the bolt head issue didn't turn up somewhere.
Something that critical should be made into a sticky thread.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Gotta admit, didn't see that one coming...

Not sure the bolt heads matter; as long as they're there and have the correct torque and so on. Either they hold the gear to the carrier, or not. There's not much force on them in any direction that the head would matter.

I'd strongly suggest tightening it to more than 14 in-lbs of preload. Shoot for something more in the 24ish range.

SLEEPER 86

The link in post #8 by Big Gear Head was the first I'd heard of this. Gotta admit he makes a compelling point. I usually follow the "better safe than sorry" mantra, especially when I have so much time and cash wrapped up in something.
Now, stock GM, Mr.Gasket, or ARP bolts?
Sofa, I have read in several places that the 9bolt wants 12-15 inch lbs of preload. Backlash runs tight too at .006-.010

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't set up the backlash that tight.

Remember, things GROW when they get hot; that includes gears.

About THE LAST THING you ever want to have happen, is for your backlash to completely disappear when it heats up. After all, as those of us unfortunate enough to have been stuck in this universe for very long have discovered, REALLY BAD THINGS happen when 2 moving metal objects try to occupy the same volume at the same time.

So, there's not really any "one" "correct" backlash; only, a range. Then, consider what happens if, for any reason, you're near, or maybe even slightly outside of, that range.

In the case of backlash, that means, if you err on the "slightly too loose" side, you have an extra .001" or 2 of backlash. Will you ever notice that?

OTOH, if you're even ONE .001" too tight, the result is TOTAL ANIHILATION.

So you decide: would you rather be slightly looser than "ideal", or even slightly tighter than "ideal"?

Bearings are bearings. Doesn't matter if they're in front wheel hubs, trailers, farm machinery, industrial equipment, or ... 9-bolts. Bearings of the size that pinion bearings are, under the load that pinion bearings are under, need enough preload that under no conditions, are they ever loose. Having the parts rattling around in there will result in INSTANT COMPLETE DESTRUCTION. Doesn't matter if they're in 9-bolts, 10-bolts, 12-bolts, Dana 44s, or what. The laws of bearings apply to all equally, subject to their size. (which among those, isn't really all that much different from each other, anyway)

OTOH, if they're slightly (emphasis on "slightly") too tight, all that will happen is, your gas mileage will be .01 mpg lower.

Here again, there's no "one" "ideal" "perfect" amount; only a range. What happens if you're at or slightly beyond each edge of that range? Which consequence of which edge of the range would you prefer?

That's why I always prefer to set rears up at the upper end of the preload range, and the upper end of the backlash range. Whatever the cause, source, or amount of any errors that might ever accumulate or otherwise occur, I would rather be at that end of the range than the other.

SLEEPER 86

For pinion preload and backlash I referenced the "everything I know about 9-bolts thread on this forum, and several otjer sources agreed. Post 3 in that thread lists preload and backlash specs, as well as a link to another members experience setting his 9 bolt up using exactly the numbers I ended up with.
Not trying to be snippy at all, just looking for the best way to do this.

big gear head

I would get closer to 20 to 22 inch pounds of preload on new pinion bearings and at least .007 to .009 on the backlash. If the gears are used then up to .011 backlash would be allright.

I had another bad experience with ring gear bolts in my own Camaro. I was a Yukon dealer for many years and they had a new version of the Trac Lock for the 9 inch Ford that I wanted to test. I put it in my car for about 2 years and beat on it as much as I could to see if I could break it. I took it out this winter to see how it looked and I found every one of the ring gear bolts loose. The Trac Lock requires a bolt with a 5/8 head due to the design of the case, so they use a hardened steel washer under the head to help keep the head from sinking into the case. For some reason Yukon decided to drill the holes in the case for 1/2 inch bolts instead of 7/16 bolts, so the small head of the bolt along with the holes that are too large caused the washers to break and the bolts lost their preload. The bolts were backed out as far as they would go and the only thing holding them in was the side of the main case. They had worn a groove in the case and were beat up pretty bad.

SLEEPER 86

Saving up for ring gear bolts, will update when I have them.