ASE doc

There is one more question that keeps bugging me. Since I,m going with a 2nd servo with much greater apply area, will going to a smaller 2nd clutch orifice create a slower shift?

ASE doc

One more thing that I noticed today as I was examining my work from Friday. I posted on how I had installed my Teflon sealing rings using an empty plastic bottle. I was looking at the sealing rings today and I noticed a slight ridge in each one. Probably from where the plastic overlapped. I was worried about that when I devised this method. My thinking is that they`'ll flatten out quickly once inside the stator support. Never the less, this could have been avoided most likely by using a peice of hose with a clamp to compress the rings. Could even use clear nylon tubing so that the rings would be visible.

Pro Built Automatics

Use the "step cut" solid sealing rings. They install in seconds, and require no special tool to install them. I have been using them since 1994 and I put them in all of my rebuild kits. I have never had a problem with them. What 2nd apply servo were you running and what servo are you using now? Install the black spring from TransGo to make the part throttle shifts better. Full throttle shifts will stay the same.

thomas1976

Patc and the other names they use, shure have a huge selection of parts on their internet sites, but they will never be able to help you build your transmission, because they do not know how either.

Give a look at ProBuilt's internet site https://www.700r4l60e.com/store/home.php you should find what you need over there, parts, kits, instructions and coustomer support are outstanding.

ASE doc

I have learned that it takes more than a cool looking website to make a transmission company.

Dana, I had the Corvette servo and I'm going to the Superior 2nd servo and 4th servo. I remember you mentioning the step cut sealing rings. I think these solids will work okay as they are. Next time I'll know to use the step cut. The stator support sealing rings that I have are scarf cut so they'll go on easy.

ASE doc

I think I get how the accumulator valve works now. From studying the hydraulic schematic it appears that the accumulator valve limits movement of the accumulator by controlling exhaust venting from the spring side of the accumulator. Modulated throttle valve pressure acts on the accumulator valve to hold it from venting and thus keeping the accumulator from moving. By changing the valve and bushing to a different size, we are changing the hydraulic ratio between the MTV side of the valve and the accumulator vent side. Actual shift firmness will still be finally determined by the spring used in the accumulator itself. I will change to the black spring as you have instructed. Especially since I'm using the large apply area servo and the heavy brown accumulator spring.

ASE doc

I'm thinking that my stubborn ignorance has finally run off Dana, my 700R4 technical expert from Pro Built Automatics. I really do appreciate all the help I have received on this project even if it seems like I'm hard to get through to sometimes.

With the ordering of a new case connector to replace my broken piece, I am now officially done gathering parts. Once it's together and I have verified that it works as intended, I will post my complete parts list. This is not an inexpensive trans build. But all the pieces I am adding to it are reusable in future rebuilds, aside from the frictions themselves.

I think this is going to be a very solid unit. I hope that it shifts like I want it to. If not, then I'll be back into the valve body making adjustments. Right now I'm waiting for the last few pieces to drift in and after another side job this weekend, I'll order the KD universal spring compressor that I found on Amazon for $100. I didn't like the method I used for dis-assembly and especially with the extra stiff springs going into the input housing, I don't want to risk damaging a spring retainer by compressing the springs without a suitable tool. Then I should be ready for assembly once the spring compressor gets here.

Has anyone here used the KD tool before? It looks like it will work well.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Can't comment on the KD tools one, but I use this one: http://www.wkhagertymfgco.com/snapress.htm/
When I was building my transmission I looked around for the best "all around" unit. Something that I could use on my 700, and other automatics. While the transmission shop "foot activated" ones are nice, they are VERY spendy and not practical for what I am doing. Coincidentally this is the one Dana sells on his site, I think I got it for $110 shipped. I remember talking to Dana when I ordered mine and he has had two of them since the 80s.

BTW Dana, if you are reading this you should really post a picture of this tool in the tool section of your website and who makes it!

ASE doc

That is a cool tool. I remember the foot operated unit we had at the tranny shop. It was nice too. But as you say not practical for many shops. The only reason I was thinking of the KD tool is that I think it will work for the drums and also for the low reverse piston that is recessed in the back of the case. The KD is a funky little unit that just latches into the snap ring groove. Even though the Smart tech doesn't have the top snap ring groove, it does have the forward clutch snap ring groove that I think will work. Just as long as the tool holds the groove tight enough. These Transgo high rev springs are stiff buggers. If the tool works like I hope it will, when I'm done with it I can toss it in the bottom drawer of my cabinet til the next time I build one of these units(10 years or so maybe?)

Pro Built Automatics

The TransGo HD spring kit comes with a round thick washer that is used as a tool that sits on top of the retainer to keep the retainer from bending as it is compressed. This will allow any type of compressor to be used.

ASE doc

Thanks Dana. I was thinking that the thick washer would allow me some grace in compressing the 3-4 springs. I'm still worried though about the other spring packs. I used a funky setup with my press and a harmonic balancer puller with three long bolts to compress springs in the disassembly it was not easy or fun. I was worried that the three points of pressure on the thin spring retainers might warp them. They seem okay after the tear down but I really don't want to put the unit back together the same way. Every day that goes by though, sitting here with everything ready to go together and no spring compressor, I am more tempted to try. LOL. One thing I could try is finding thick washers like the one from Transgo for the other spring packs. Or I could just wait a few more days for the tool to get here.

Pro Built Automatics

The spring retainer in the reverse input drum is very weak, and I doubt you will bend it. Give it a try.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

When I had mine, I really like my setup. Recommended to me by trans go. Their shift kit, corvette servos, larger boost valves, and a full throttle upshift kit. Good for 500 they said

ASE doc

That's basically what I had, except that to create my 6,500 rpm shifts, they used a vette governor with very light springs. The trans only has 25K or so on it since the build when they installed a brand new valve body. I liked how it shifted so I didn't change much in that area. Just a few minor touches to address little issues. I went to a stiffer line bias spring to maintain full line pressure to higher throttle opening and installed a lighter accumulator valve spring to reduce 1-2 shift harshness at light throttle.

The vette servo worked well. I went with the larger Superior servos in this build and the wider 2-4 band just to be sure that 2nd and 4th gears are rock solid. My valve body has the Transgo 3-4 shift valve and the Sonnax line boost kit with .500 TV boost valve and heavier spring. I just put my new pump together yesterday with the high rev slide spring as well.

I like having a real fully functional 4th gear, rather than the stock one that drops out at half throttle and shifts in and out as you drive. I drive in 2nd or 3rd most of the time anyway but still. Holding 4th at full throttle is nice too though it's hard to use without severely exceeding maximum speed. I have a reckless driving ticket to prove it and I'm lucky to still have my car. Today, I try to limit my displays of power to the track where no one pulls me over afterward.

Dana, I just ordered the KD spring compressor yesterday, since my Cornwell dealer who was getting it for me told me that he wasn't going to get it afterall. Now if I jump ahead and put the trans together without it, I'll have gotten it for nothing. That would just be a travesty. LOL. I am still one part short too. I finally found my new case connector. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The little with plastic piece that you never try to remove unless you're dumb like me. That bugger was hard to find. GM has discontinued it. I ordered it today so it should be here just about the time my compressor is. Should be ready to assemble next weekend.

Pro Built Automatics

If you are talking about the 3 prong (square) plug on the drivers side, it is readily available. The 1993 round 5 prong plug is not.

ASE doc

Yeah, the 3 prong square receptacle. I could get the plug no problem but not the receptacle that actually goes into the case.

Pro Built Automatics

If you are talking about the part (3 prong square plug) that clips into the case, they are apx. a dollar or two, and can be had from any transmission shop.

ASE doc

Darn. That's the one. I tried the GM dealer next door to my shop and tried my local trans parts warehouse. I finally found it online for $18.

I guess it pays to ask questions. I was starting to think since it's discontinued from GM that I'd better grab the first one I found.

Good news is, it's on its way and should be here by Wednesday. My spring compressor should be here tomorrow and I'll be ready to assemble next weekend. The pump is back together and the VB is ready to go.

Dana, what method do you use to shoe-horn the piston lip seals into the housings? I was going to get the little wire loop lip seal tool but my local supplier doesn't have them. I though I would just use a feeler gauge.

ASE doc

I found a good tool for installing the lip seals. I was playing with the input housing when my Snap On tool dealer came by. He had a set of four various seal spoons for $35. A good price for any Snap On tool. The long ones work great for reaching the lip seals in the housing. I used lots of lube and ATF to help the seals go in without tearing. I've got the pistons all in place now, waiting to compress the springs and install the snap ring. Once together, I'll air check all the clutches to make sure I didn't mess up a seal.

The reinforcement ring in the housing makes things harder since the lip seal protectors that would have worked for the forward and overrun pistons no longer fit.

ASE doc

Dana, I was just poking around and found your post in thread about upgrading the 4th gear servo. I didn't understand how the Sonnax 4th servo could have mor apply area than the Superior but I looked a little further and now I get it. The Sonnax has a dual piston so the apply area is much larger than just what inside diameter of the cover allows for. My concern though is will this larger cover clear the F-body trans tunnel? It seems really close. I'm thinking about sending back the Superior piece and ordering the Sonnax instead.

ASE doc

I gave in to my OCD just a little. Even though my spring compressor should be here today, I went ahead and assembled the Smart tech input housing using my make shift method. Using the washer than comes in the Trans go 7-CS kit, the job went very well. I ended up with .078" clearance on the 3-4 clutch pack so I ordered up a .106" steel to replace one of the .077" which will put me right at .050".
This is toward the high side of what Dana recommends(.35-.55). My forward clutch came out a little tight so I had to reuse the one thin steel from the old set to get up to .35 which is on the low side of the OE recommendation of .30-.60. I'll wait on the compressor to go any further.

Pro Built Automatics

I like the forward clutch clearance at .015" - .030". When checking the forward clutch setup, leave out the sprag assembly and check the clutch clearance between the top pressure plate and the first clutch. This is the right way to check it. The ATSG book has you checking it at an angle between the snap ring and the pressure plate, not the right way.

ASE doc

Cool. Then I can take the thin steel out and put the thicker one back in. Also, I set the reverse input clutch at .030 since my manual didn't provide a spec. Is that okay? I got my KD tools spring compressor. Very cool tool. Only $89 and change from Tooltopia.com. It worked great for all of the drums and the low reverse as well. Done with it and it's back in the box and compact for storage.

Now I'm scratching my head on the anti clunk spring for the center support. I think I have it right since it seems to only fit one way. I just don't see what keeps it from backing out.

Okay, I think I get it once it's wedged in place, the center support itself seems to retain it. Just to be sure, can anyone post a picture?

ASE doc

Ha! just found photos on another forum showing that I just installed my anti clunk spring upside down. That would have sucked. It's easy to fix at this point. Not so much once the trans is back together.

ASE doc

Alrighty then, the gear train is assembled and the pump installed and torqued. I ended up with .008 end play using the same thin shim washer behind the front thrust bearing that came out of the unit. I did have to back track a bit and remove the OE style thrust washer from the low/reverse roller clutch race and install the one that came with the Beast shell.

One weird issue that I have is a squeaking sound when turning the shaft one direction. It is quiet the other way. I dug in last night to find the cause. It's coming from below the reaction shell. With the reaction carrier out it's quiet and the shell turns freely. Once I drop the reaction carrier in, the noise is there. I was worried for a minute that it might be the anti clunk spring touching the reaction shell, but why would it only make the sound when the reaction carrier is in place? I'm positive that all thrust washers and bearings are in place and they're all brand new. The washers are all lubed with assembly grease.

One other question, where do you set 2-4 band clearance? I am using a dial indicator and pushing the cover in by hand (no o-rings installed), and I get about .055-.065. To the eye it looks like its moving more than that but the dial doesn't lie. The drum does turn just as easily with the servo installed as without it so there's no drag on the band. I can also move the band back and forth freely with a screw driver. I just don't want it to be too tight and burn.

ASE doc

Update, the squeaking only occurs when the output shaft turns.

Pro Built Automatics

The noise is most likely from the low/reverse one way roller clutch. Sometimes the Beast will hit the anti-clunk spring and will have to be ground to clear the shell.

ASE doc

First of all, I need to practice up on paying attention. Just found a perfectly detailed photo of the anti-clunk spring install in my factory manual. Also just found my squeak. I left the wave washer out of the low reverse clutch pack and the center support was rubbing the rear planet carrier.

ASE doc

I installed the wave washer and took up alot of the clearance in the low/reverse clutch, though there is still probably .060. The squeak was still there. I had to install a thrust washer between the rear planet carrier and the center support. There was an extra washer in the kit that the manual on this unit didn't call for. I had to turn down the lugs a little to make it sit flat but it matched the spacing of the pinion shafts. Now with the unit all back together, it feels like I lost a little end play. I'll have to put my dial indicator back on it. Trouble is, I'm already using the thinnest shim I have, which is .069. I may need to order a thinner one.

Dana, is there something I'm missing?

ASE doc

Hi Dana, Thanks for your response. I missed it before posting my last reply. I did remove just a hair off the anti clunk spring just to be sure. The squeak was definitely from the center support and the rear planet carrier though. I put them on the bench and could make the sound by turning them. I'm concerned that I'm missing something. The washer I put in stopped the noise but it doesn't really belong there.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Are you assembling with ATF? i was worried about little noises when assembling my gear train (and I had to add a case saver to complicate things). I finally started coating everything in ATF on my final assembly and all those metal on metal noises went away. I had the gear train in and out about 3 dozen times because I was so worried about the case saver not having enough clearance to the sun shell amoung other "first time" things. If you're worried about contact you could use clay or machinist dye to see. Most of the gear train is steel, so it shouldn't grow much when it gets hot.

I added one of the old steels to the stackup to get take up more clearance. I was told to ignore the measurement for the low/reverse clutch pack stack up and "eye ball it" since measuring it hard to do. My gear engaugements are FAST when shifting from Park.

Your end play does seem tight, you can get a #68 or #67 selective washer. I think I used a #68. You could also flat sand your #69 if you have a thick piece of glass or granite.

ASE doc

Thanks morgsie, I lubricate everything in trans assembly lube and ATF. I just figured something out. This noise is only happening because I have the trans vertical for assembly and the center support is laying down in the case. I may still open up the L/R stack just to be sure of how the wave washer sits but as far as the rubbing of the center support on the rear carrier, the first time the L/R clutch engages, the center support will be forced tight against the snap ring and the problem will take care of itself. The anti clunk spring will keep the center support in place.

Guys like Dana at Pro Built Automatics, who build these units all the time, have figured this out. In fact now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure I've heard this problem discussed before. I'll remove my dumbass thrust washer and that should put my end play back where it was. After this trip back inside, I'll be at three D&As of gear train myself. I guess third times a charm.

ASE doc

It's the moment of truth. The units all together and I shot it with aluminum paint and left it to dry overnight. This morning I'll install it and well see how it works. Unfortunately it's 3:30 am here and its a frosty morning. It will be a nice day for a test drive though.

ASE doc

The transmission is in and its been on its first road test. So far I'm very pleased. The light throttle 1-2 bang shift is gone. Now the light throttle shift is firm and solid but not at all harsh. Shift firmness is progressively greater with throttle and above 1/2 throttle, the shift is quick and very firm. The 2-3 shift is the same way. The sluggishness from 2-3 that used to be there at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle is gone. I still want to test the converter flash. The new converter should stall at 2,800 -3,000 which is 500 or so higher than the old one. One point to mention, as this has been mentioned to me, is the 3-2 shift. It's been said that the Superior servo can cause a clunky shift. I can just barely hear the click of the servo hitting the seal piston. I don't mind it at all.

If I haven't said it yet, THANK YOU DANA!!! Your technical assistance on this project has been invaluable. I owe this new unit's awesome behavior to you.

ASE doc

Now that I've verified proper operation, here is my parts list, starting from the front of the transmission. Rebuilt 10 vane pump, high rev pump slide spring, .300 reverse boost valve, Sonnax line boost kit with .500 TV boost valve and stiffer spring, late model (LS1) input shaft, new reverse input drum, extra wide carbonite 2-4 band, Superior 2nd servo, Superior 4th servo, Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Beast Sun shell, all new thrust washers and bearings, stiff brown 1-2 accumulator spring, Transgo 3-4 shift valve train, B accumulator valve with black spring from Transgo JR shift kit, Transgo high rev springs for 3-4 and Forward clutches, dual springs on the line bias valve(the red spring from the JR kit and a spring from the hardware store that fit inside it), all new frictions and steels including 9/.062 frictions and 8/.077 steels for the 3-4 clutch(one of the .077 steels was replaced with a .106 steel to set clearance at .050.

This parts list, along with all the various small parts from local suppliers, came to about $1,800. You can have a pretty decent unit built professionally for this. The most expensive part, and one that DANA from Pro Built Automatics says isn't even necessary, is the Smart Tech input housing. This is a $500 piece. I used it because I'm OCD and I had to do everything possible to make the 3-4 clutch indestructible. Also, as this trans was just specially built as a performance unit 25K miles ago, there were several modifications already made to it that contribute to it's great shifting.

In the conclusion of this project, I will say that I am very happy with how it went and that I decided to built the unit myself. It was a technically demanding job and gathering all of the parts took months. Those of you with greater financial resources will be able to get this done quicker. The assembly was more difficult than I had remembered from doing a few units in the past, but it all worked out. The hours spent studying helped a lot. For anyone unsure about going into this project themselves, I highly recommend Pro Built Automatics for parts, technical assistance, and to have a unit professionally built.

I want to say thanks to Randy, Blake, and Nathan at PATC for helping me with my parts list. Their website is great with a lot of information and parts and even though there were some snags in the delivery of my parts, Randy was solid in taking care of it and getting me my stuff. If there is any one issue I had with PATC, it would be technical assistance. It was harder than it should have been to get questions answered. Overall, great job guys!

ASE doc

OCD man here again. I am starting to recognize one major piece that I overlooked. Both of the planetary gears in my 700R4 looked good. The front was in especially good shape. The rear sun gear had obviously been replaced in the prior build and all the teeth were solid. The pinions and no noticable end play or runout but I did notice more gear lash between the rear sun gear and pinions than in the front. Now that the unit's back together, I am picking up on a noise that was there before and that I know now is coming from the rear planet. I'm sure that the gear set is solid enough to make it for a while anyway and since I don't drive the car much, it should be good for a few years but I am kicking myself right now for passing over that part.

An AC Delco new 5 pinion planet is $170 and change. With what I invested in this unit, that is a small add on. Looks like I'm going back in next year. This will be a much quicker job though since I know now that the rest of the unit is solid and I am just going to go in and replace the rear planet. Eventually, I am going to also install the 6 pinion, ratio change front planet. It changes 1st gear from 3.06:1 to 2.84:1 and second gear from 1.62:1 to 1.56:1. Third and fourth gears are unchanged. This creates a closer ratio transmission with a more usable 1st gear. Anyone with a built motor in their third gen knows how useless 1st gear becomes for anything other than melting tires.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I'd like to do the 1-2 gear ratio change myself but the cost is unreal..

ASE doc

Yeah. Right now the only people who offer the gear set is PATC and it's $950 for one planetary set(3 pieces). I spoke with Blake down there this morning and he told me that it is actually an early GM design planned for the 700R4 orginally. They shelved it and went with what we have now. PATC got together with the retired GM engineer who had done the original design and built the set. The high cost is because of their huge expense for the patent rights. Blake told me that he half expects GM to buy up the patent at some point and stuff the set away to be available only in a high performance transmission assembly. At that point, unless we want to spend big bucks on a transmission, we will be SOL.

I think for the foreseeable future, I will install the GM 5 pinion front and rear planets and live with the stock ratios.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I think thats a hopeful thought on GM buying up the patent rights on a trans thats most likely on its way out the door. I have the 5 pinion planets, full roller thrust bearings and I like it.
I got my parts for the cost of a core trans ($100) out of a crashed 04ish 6.0L Escalade with a broken bellhousing and rear mounting flange.

ASE doc

Yep. That's the 4L65E that had all the upgrades. Any of them that went behind the 6.0L LS(Vortec) engines got the good stuff.

I wonder myself about GM being interested in parts for the 4 speed automatics. Maybe for their GM High performance line.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Actually Chris @ CK Performance developed and machines that gear set. The guys at PATC are full of sh*t, I have seen A LOT of misinformation from them. I'm sure you've read what Dana has to say about the 5 pinion planets. I am no high performance builder but I'd trust Dana over most. If you can get them cheap then do it but they are not stronger/better than the OEM 4 pinion planets.

Pro Built Automatics

If you haven't noticed, there are no reports of anybody (in fact it has been quiet) gaining much if anything from from the gear change 3.06 to 2.84. From reports that I have gotten from people that have use the 2.84 gear set, were that they gained little to nothing and were very disappointed. The ads on these that they improved 1 - 3 tenths in a nine second vehicle in the quarter mile were very misleading. If they said they gained half a tenth in the quarter mile, that could be believable. A good "matched" torque converter will do more than any gear change ever could.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I honestly believe a gear change could/would/should help, .3tenths worth may be a stretch. Maybe a tenth or so but I don't feel thats worth 1,000bux. (if anyone wants to send a set I'll be more than happy to try them out!)
When these things hit 1st to 2nd gear it feels like it loses some steam unless you have a big motor or power to help pull it thru.. Some guys have switched to a 200R4 and pickedup some ET but I don't know if that is because the trans is more efficent or what.

We got a trans from Chris at CK for a ford project several years ago and it was a complete pile. 2nd test drive at half throttle and it was toast, shipped it back, they "fixed" it and it promptly smoked again within 5 miles. Had it fixed local and it was fine after they put a lot of left out parts back in.. customer wanted that CK trans for some reason..
We put a Lentech in our race/street car and had 0 problems. (I used a lentech in a 1500rwhp mustang I built years ago w no probs)

ASE doc

Thanks for clarifying that guys. Obviously at nearly $1,000, the ratio change planets are not worth it, regardless who makes them.

I'm having an issue. It's not awful I guess but if I can fix it I would like to. Each time that I have driven the car, the transmission hesitates to shift from 1st gear. This morning I played with it a little to see how long it would take to shift. Driving in manual 2nd it didn't seem to want to shift at all. Than, when I moved the shifter to 3rd, the trans shifted to 2nd immediately. I have tried starting out in 3rd though and it still hesitates to shift from 1st to 2nd. It only does this on the first 1-2 shift. After that, it shifts perfectly and consistently throughout the drive. Once the first 1-2 shift has taken place, I can manual shift from 1st to 2nd, or start out in 2nd and the trans will auto shift consistently.

Does anyone have any idea what might be wrong? I thought of the governor being sticky but I'm thinking now that it's okay as the unit seems to be shifting out of 1st gear, just not engaging 2nd. Any thoughts on this Dana?

ASE doc

Replying to my own question. After work yesterday, once I replaced my 9 year old Optima Yellow Top battery, when I left work the trans shifted into 2nd without hesitation. This morning there was a little hesitation but it was minor. I'm hoping whatever is happening will resolve itself as things break in.

91camaroRS, if you're still following this thread. You say the car in your photo is a rendering. There is a guy on the hotrodders forum who just pulled the motor out of a California edition IROC that looks almost exactly like your rendering. It appears to be in excellent condition, at least from the passenger side. He is putting the motor in a 50 something chevy truck and probably dumping the body(some people have no respect). You might want to take a little trip over to hotrodders and see if you can find this guy. You can probably pick up that body cheap.

RPOL98

guys: thanks for the awesome information posted in this thread, becoming a 700R4 reference in-itself.

thanks again.

ASE doc

Thank Dana from Pro Built Automatics for being part of this and providing us with his wisdom. BTW, if I haven't said it enough, I love this new transmission! I am so pleased each time I drive it.

ASE doc

I don't know if anyone is even interested in this thread anymore but I ran into my first real issue with the new trans today. Went out to fire up the car this morning and found a trail of trans fluid on the garage floor. Found that I had cut the grommet when installing the TV cable housing into the case. So weird that it only just now started to leak. Fortunately, I ended up with two sets of gaskets and seals(poor planning, or maybe good planning depending on how you look at it). So before the shop opened, I swapped out the grommet. Much easier to do on the rack than on the garage floor.