THM 700 R4 slipping
11-08-2001, 09:36 AM
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THM 700 R4 slipping
I just got a 91 Trans AM for my daughter abd I to restore. The car is great shape and has many factory extras. The only big problem is that when I excelerate hard the transmission slipps bad when it shifts into second. The TV cable was badly out of adjustment and the fluid was way to high but I have corrected these items and it still is slipping. I have rebuilt many engines, gas and diesel, manual transmissions but am reluctant to dive in an automatic.what are the options ???
91 Trans Am
5.7 TPI
WS6 Performance Package
3.23 positraction axle
aluminum drive shaft
Ride Handling suspension
[This message has been edited by BlackBird91 (edited November 08, 2001).]
91 Trans Am
5.7 TPI
WS6 Performance Package
3.23 positraction axle
aluminum drive shaft
Ride Handling suspension
[This message has been edited by BlackBird91 (edited November 08, 2001).]
11-08-2001, 10:11 AM
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Car: 1989 Camaro
Engine: 406
Transmission: Pro-built 700R4
If you are thinking of adding any kind of power to the car and want a tranny that will last and take the abuse, check out www.probuilt.net . They build them mighty strong.
11-08-2001, 01:44 PM
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Before you go spending the rape-job prices that any tranny shop will charge, try buying a manual for a couple of bucks off of ebay. Read through it and decide if it's a job you think you can do. Most people are afraid to touch auto trannies, that's why the shops get away with charging as much as they do.
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11-08-2001, 02:05 PM
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"Most people are afraid to touch auto trannies, that's why the shops get away with charging as much as they do."
Not to mention the blood, sweat and tears spent learning the trade, spending a fortune on tools, etc, etc. Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.
Not to mention the blood, sweat and tears spent learning the trade, spending a fortune on tools, etc, etc. Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.
11-08-2001, 02:36 PM
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Car: 2002 Harley Nightrain
Engine: twin cam 88ci
Transmission: manual
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo:
Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.[/B]</font>
Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.[/B]</font>
11-08-2001, 03:00 PM
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When I invision working on a automatic trani.all I see is the first four berral quadrajet carb I rebuilt. After lifting the top half off and seeing the check ***** rolling around on the bench and wondering if I'd ever get them back in to the correct hole.
11-08-2001, 03:27 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo:
Not to mention the blood, sweat and tears spent learning the trade, spending a fortune on tools, etc, etc. Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.</font>
Not to mention the blood, sweat and tears spent learning the trade, spending a fortune on tools, etc, etc. Then you get a schmuch like me who gives out free info on some internet message board after hours. Go figure.</font>
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11-08-2001, 03:47 PM
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I'll get the book and study up, PERHAPS IT WONT BE SO BAD. It looks like I'll need to have it hooked to a computer to make sure its not a sencer. When the trani is locked in any gear it axcells great its just the shift that slips. Its funny how necessity or spite makes a person dive into the unknown
and learn something new. Thanks for all the help.
[This message has been edited by BlackBird91 (edited November 08, 2001).]
and learn something new. Thanks for all the help.
[This message has been edited by BlackBird91 (edited November 08, 2001).]
11-08-2001, 04:36 PM
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Just out of curiousity, I would like to take a little poll. If you could have anybody you want overhaul your trans with whatever parts you want, fill it with whatever oil you want, but don't start it. How much would you charge to take responsibility for it from the time it starts for one year/12,000 miles?
11-08-2001, 06:58 PM
#10
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Might be worth having a pro check out your
trans first. If you or the last owner haven't burned out frictions or blown out the seals from having the tv cable out of wack and overfilling the fluid, you might be able to get away with installing a shift kit like the transgo kit. Al thou I'm not a trans tech, I am an auto tradesman and know
what kind if training these guys go thru and the investment in tools and equip. Most of 'em just want to get payed for a good days work and send ya on your way happy as
a .....
[This message has been edited by F-BIRD'88 (edited November 08, 2001).]
trans first. If you or the last owner haven't burned out frictions or blown out the seals from having the tv cable out of wack and overfilling the fluid, you might be able to get away with installing a shift kit like the transgo kit. Al thou I'm not a trans tech, I am an auto tradesman and know
what kind if training these guys go thru and the investment in tools and equip. Most of 'em just want to get payed for a good days work and send ya on your way happy as
a .....
[This message has been edited by F-BIRD'88 (edited November 08, 2001).]
11-09-2001, 03:31 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo:
Just out of curiousity, I would like to take a little poll. If you could have anybody you want overhaul your trans with whatever parts you want, fill it with whatever oil you want, but don't start it. How much would you charge to take responsibility for it from the time it starts for one year/12,000 miles? </font>
Just out of curiousity, I would like to take a little poll. If you could have anybody you want overhaul your trans with whatever parts you want, fill it with whatever oil you want, but don't start it. How much would you charge to take responsibility for it from the time it starts for one year/12,000 miles? </font>
Here's a question for you... Why is it that shops will gladly build a TH350/400 very reasonably, but they want 3 or 4 times as much to do a 700r4?
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11-09-2001, 03:41 PM
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Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop
Engine: 383 Carb
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mojo:
Why is it that shops will gladly build a TH350/400 very reasonably, but they want 3 or 4 times as much to do a 700r4?</font>
Why is it that shops will gladly build a TH350/400 very reasonably, but they want 3 or 4 times as much to do a 700r4?</font>
11-09-2001, 04:58 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Apeiron:
Because it costs 3 times more to build a 700R4 than it does to build a TH350.</font>
Because it costs 3 times more to build a 700R4 than it does to build a TH350.</font>
11-10-2001, 02:37 AM
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"Here's a question for you... Why is it that shops will gladly build a TH350/400 very reasonably, but they want 3 or 4 times as much to do a 700r4?"
The 700 is a much more complicated transmission than either of those and the potential problems went up exponentially. The 350 is a tuff tranny and I have seen them work with parts that should have been in the scrap barrel (not that I recommend it!) a long time ago. I have also seen many a good man pull there hair out trying to figure out why even though everything seems perfect, meticulously clean, etc., in a 700 and you can still have one drop on you for no aparent reason.
"I've been able to find soft parts kits that include all of the clutches and steels for around $100. Even if the parts for the TH350/400 are only around $30, that only seems to warrant a price increase of about $90, plus the additional labor, if any. It still doesn't justify 300%."
Ah, if that magic rebuild kit was all that it took to fix a tranny... Excuse me, I slipped into dreamland.
First off, maybe it's just me but on a 700 I figure to spend a minimum of $500 and up on parts. Next you have to consider what it really costs to be in business. When you do a tranny, or any repair for that matter, there are three main components to the price: Parts, Labor and Warranty.
Now parts costs are not just the basic number but have to include the cost of maintaining and/or shipping the inventory, not to mention the cost of the space it occupies, cost to pay someone to stock them, etc. Anyhow that is why a markup is included, or it reflects a risk involved with a part. Even if you buy, lets say, a Generator that has a lifetime warranty and it drops, you still have to replace it and they don't pay you for that when you go back to the parts store. If you are in business you either have to pay someone to do it or do it yourself W/O getting paid while a paying job sits. Either way it is the same thing- work is done and no money is taken in.
Labor costs are better understood if you look at it from a shop owners perspective. You have to pay someone to do that, and if you want it to be someone who knows what they are doing it will be even more. Now they are not just there to make sure the mechanic gets paid and the shop isn't free either so that is why labor rates seem high to you. Don't forget the equipment involved. I am not a shop owner but within arms reach of me right now is a $2000 Snap-On Scanner and $1600 Vantage Graphing MultiMeter that I paid for. Even if you are right on the cost of parts it still involves a few hundred dollars in tools to do the job and the knowledge of how to do it. Sure you may get through five or six with no problems but I want to see what happens when you get one that drops three or four times, requiring many of those same parts to be replace over and over again, FREE (to the customer), and you still haven't figured out why. Oh and did I mention that the car is 200 miles away and the owner and family is on vacation? Or perhaps you just plain screw up and that easy $100 in parts repair job just nuked and now it is quadruple to fix it AND your Super Ultra Stall Converter that cost YOU $XXX.00 is now hopelessly loaded with metal, not to mention the cooler circuit in the radiator.
Lastly is warranty. That is the intangible to most people. There is some sort of idea that "If you know what you are doing it shouldn't matter". Well that kind of thinking will keep you in business until your bank account runs out, which will be soon. It is in fact a very real component af the cost of a job, or at least it should be if you want to stay in business. Every other business knows what it's REAL costs are and accounts for them. That is why when I see someone saying that it is too much to pay for something I ask the warranty question. It also tends to put things into perspective real fast. So I ask again: Just out of curiousity, I would like to take a little poll. If you could have anybody you want overhaul your trans with whatever parts you want, fill it with whatever oil you want, but don't start it. How much would you charge to take responsibility for it from the time it starts for one year/12,000 miles?
The 700 is a much more complicated transmission than either of those and the potential problems went up exponentially. The 350 is a tuff tranny and I have seen them work with parts that should have been in the scrap barrel (not that I recommend it!) a long time ago. I have also seen many a good man pull there hair out trying to figure out why even though everything seems perfect, meticulously clean, etc., in a 700 and you can still have one drop on you for no aparent reason.
"I've been able to find soft parts kits that include all of the clutches and steels for around $100. Even if the parts for the TH350/400 are only around $30, that only seems to warrant a price increase of about $90, plus the additional labor, if any. It still doesn't justify 300%."
Ah, if that magic rebuild kit was all that it took to fix a tranny... Excuse me, I slipped into dreamland.
First off, maybe it's just me but on a 700 I figure to spend a minimum of $500 and up on parts. Next you have to consider what it really costs to be in business. When you do a tranny, or any repair for that matter, there are three main components to the price: Parts, Labor and Warranty.
Now parts costs are not just the basic number but have to include the cost of maintaining and/or shipping the inventory, not to mention the cost of the space it occupies, cost to pay someone to stock them, etc. Anyhow that is why a markup is included, or it reflects a risk involved with a part. Even if you buy, lets say, a Generator that has a lifetime warranty and it drops, you still have to replace it and they don't pay you for that when you go back to the parts store. If you are in business you either have to pay someone to do it or do it yourself W/O getting paid while a paying job sits. Either way it is the same thing- work is done and no money is taken in.
Labor costs are better understood if you look at it from a shop owners perspective. You have to pay someone to do that, and if you want it to be someone who knows what they are doing it will be even more. Now they are not just there to make sure the mechanic gets paid and the shop isn't free either so that is why labor rates seem high to you. Don't forget the equipment involved. I am not a shop owner but within arms reach of me right now is a $2000 Snap-On Scanner and $1600 Vantage Graphing MultiMeter that I paid for. Even if you are right on the cost of parts it still involves a few hundred dollars in tools to do the job and the knowledge of how to do it. Sure you may get through five or six with no problems but I want to see what happens when you get one that drops three or four times, requiring many of those same parts to be replace over and over again, FREE (to the customer), and you still haven't figured out why. Oh and did I mention that the car is 200 miles away and the owner and family is on vacation? Or perhaps you just plain screw up and that easy $100 in parts repair job just nuked and now it is quadruple to fix it AND your Super Ultra Stall Converter that cost YOU $XXX.00 is now hopelessly loaded with metal, not to mention the cooler circuit in the radiator.
Lastly is warranty. That is the intangible to most people. There is some sort of idea that "If you know what you are doing it shouldn't matter". Well that kind of thinking will keep you in business until your bank account runs out, which will be soon. It is in fact a very real component af the cost of a job, or at least it should be if you want to stay in business. Every other business knows what it's REAL costs are and accounts for them. That is why when I see someone saying that it is too much to pay for something I ask the warranty question. It also tends to put things into perspective real fast. So I ask again: Just out of curiousity, I would like to take a little poll. If you could have anybody you want overhaul your trans with whatever parts you want, fill it with whatever oil you want, but don't start it. How much would you charge to take responsibility for it from the time it starts for one year/12,000 miles?
11-10-2001, 02:47 AM
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Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Miniram'd 383, 24X LS1 PCM
Transmission: TH700R4, 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 9", 4.33:1
Well, as a former service technician (successfully worked on some 4L60s and 4L60Es while I was a wrench, but I am no trans expert..), I have to say that transfixleo has a very good point about the money spent on classes and the fortune spent on tools by the technicians...
BUT, the problem is, the techs don't see jack $hit from all of that over-inflated price you pay to the shop for whatever job you had done. Example:
Shop charges $75 an hour on labor and hands the technician $16 an hour???? WTF is that????? Anybody else see a problem here? Shop labor rates have more than tripled in the last 15 years, but technician's wages haven't even doubled... Who is making all of the money here? Answer: Not the techs. Who is the most important to the shop's success and ability to make money? Answer: the techs.
The bottom line is that the shops are raping the customers and the technicians... And, no, I am no longer a tech.... I am getting myself an education for a career that is actually promising.......
So, on the grounds that the technicians get the giant shaft no matter how much the shops charge, and they are the ones that are directly affected by the actual tasks required by each job, I am siding with Mojo on this one. The prices are just plain getting out of control.....
And I also don't really understand the point of the poll question either... But if I could have anyone build me a transmission, but I had to warranty it myself,..... I would do it myself???....
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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
BUT, the problem is, the techs don't see jack $hit from all of that over-inflated price you pay to the shop for whatever job you had done. Example:
Shop charges $75 an hour on labor and hands the technician $16 an hour???? WTF is that????? Anybody else see a problem here? Shop labor rates have more than tripled in the last 15 years, but technician's wages haven't even doubled... Who is making all of the money here? Answer: Not the techs. Who is the most important to the shop's success and ability to make money? Answer: the techs.
The bottom line is that the shops are raping the customers and the technicians... And, no, I am no longer a tech.... I am getting myself an education for a career that is actually promising.......So, on the grounds that the technicians get the giant shaft no matter how much the shops charge, and they are the ones that are directly affected by the actual tasks required by each job, I am siding with Mojo on this one. The prices are just plain getting out of control.....
And I also don't really understand the point of the poll question either... But if I could have anyone build me a transmission, but I had to warranty it myself,..... I would do it myself???....
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
11-10-2001, 03:21 AM
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Hi matt,
You bring up a good point and it is a problem that is going to blow up in the face of the consumer ultimately. When I started out you didn't have to know a fraction of what you do now. For everything involved you can go into other high tech fields and never get dirty again. Don't think that the thought doesn't cross my mind. I remember working with a guy who worked at a dealer in the '60's and he said the shop rate was $12/hr and the mechanics got 1/2 of that. Now it cost allot more for a equipment than it did then, heck, the average tech in a dealer has more money invested in his own tools than the whole dealership did back then. That is a valid reason why the split is no more 50/50 but still, for you other guys out there, how many of you pay $50 or $100 a week to a tool man, just so you can do your job?
As to the poll question, it is just meant to get people to understand costs, specifically the cost of warrantying a job. I want to know what people think would be the proper price to assume the risks. Remember in the question the car hasen't even been started. Now if all is perfect and the planets are aligned just so, you get to keep all of the money you would charge since you wouldn't have to pay anything out. BUT on the other hand, it might not work from the word go and it could cost money before it even hits the road.
You bring up a good point and it is a problem that is going to blow up in the face of the consumer ultimately. When I started out you didn't have to know a fraction of what you do now. For everything involved you can go into other high tech fields and never get dirty again. Don't think that the thought doesn't cross my mind. I remember working with a guy who worked at a dealer in the '60's and he said the shop rate was $12/hr and the mechanics got 1/2 of that. Now it cost allot more for a equipment than it did then, heck, the average tech in a dealer has more money invested in his own tools than the whole dealership did back then. That is a valid reason why the split is no more 50/50 but still, for you other guys out there, how many of you pay $50 or $100 a week to a tool man, just so you can do your job?
As to the poll question, it is just meant to get people to understand costs, specifically the cost of warrantying a job. I want to know what people think would be the proper price to assume the risks. Remember in the question the car hasen't even been started. Now if all is perfect and the planets are aligned just so, you get to keep all of the money you would charge since you wouldn't have to pay anything out. BUT on the other hand, it might not work from the word go and it could cost money before it even hits the road.
11-10-2001, 03:41 AM
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I found this post interesting:
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/005449.html
Here is a guy who got a bargain price and, well...
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/005449.html
Here is a guy who got a bargain price and, well...
11-10-2001, 10:44 AM
#19
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My friend and I were visiting a Local trans shop here and possed the same question:
We were there to pick up a TH350 they freshened for us. These are goood people and work hard for their money. Well the bench tech told us he's doing up a 700r4 up for another customer who wants all the latest goodies and up-grades. He said he's got $750
Canadian,@his cost, in new parts (frictions, bands and upgraded hard parts) and still hasen't even started actually doing the rebuild. This doesn't include all the little hand modifications and clearance checking that take time, to bring it up to what you could call a "high-perf" trans. You could throw a bucket o' sand in a th350 and it'll
still work (just like on TV). But th700's are real finicky. He also gave me some good tips on tracking down the little problem
I'm having with mine. $1500 is not too much to pay for a good rebuild if all the goodies are there and the guy does a top job. That way he can stand behind it too. 'cause he's been able to fix/upgrade all the faults he can and not just freshen it up like most th350's need. He only charged us $300 (Can) to freshen up the th350.
We were there to pick up a TH350 they freshened for us. These are goood people and work hard for their money. Well the bench tech told us he's doing up a 700r4 up for another customer who wants all the latest goodies and up-grades. He said he's got $750
Canadian,@his cost, in new parts (frictions, bands and upgraded hard parts) and still hasen't even started actually doing the rebuild. This doesn't include all the little hand modifications and clearance checking that take time, to bring it up to what you could call a "high-perf" trans. You could throw a bucket o' sand in a th350 and it'll
still work (just like on TV). But th700's are real finicky. He also gave me some good tips on tracking down the little problem
I'm having with mine. $1500 is not too much to pay for a good rebuild if all the goodies are there and the guy does a top job. That way he can stand behind it too. 'cause he's been able to fix/upgrade all the faults he can and not just freshen it up like most th350's need. He only charged us $300 (Can) to freshen up the th350.
11-10-2001, 10:58 AM
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transfixleo, I must one of the few that understand your poll question.
People that have never owned a business do not understand what it takes to operate and pay employees.
I owned my first trans shop in 1980..... I never attended college, but I sure got a college education. Every time I turned around my accountant was handing me another tax bill to pay or pre-pay.
Snap on tools closed up the warehouse here in AZ years ago. WHY! you say? Taxes on inventory carried over to the next year was the primary reason.
How many employees know that the employer pays more SS taxes than is withheld from the employees check? Who pays for the uniform service and shop rags? Who pays for that micro wave oven in the break room? Or the coffee pot that no one will clean or take care of? Just get a new one.
Granted many shops now add on to repair bills for "shop supplies".
The place I work for had a run of bad "new" 700R4 pump rotors last year. We had to eat 8 transmissions / repairs and related costs due to rotor breakage. Our supplier replced the rotors.....BFD.
Some folks do not realize the full circle of costs to build a transmission or anything thing for that matter and then warranty it with absolutely no control over the product.
An example from my own sister in law.... My wife and her sister traveled to the Mediteranian Sea area several weeks ago. Her sister dropped her new 35mm camera the first day there and broke it. After arriving back in the USA she took the camera back to Target and got a FULL refund for a "defective" camera....... That is one reason prices keep going up.
Tony
------------------
2001 Ford 150 SuperCrew
2000 Silverado
1985 Camaro V6
1962 Ford Falcon
1961 Dodge Lancer 350 chevy power
1961 Morris Minor 1000
1961 BugEye Sprite
2-1951 Crosley wagons
1948 Crosley wagon
1947 Crosley Sedan
1947 Crosley Pick-up
1948 Simca
[This message has been edited by Crosley4 (edited November 10, 2001).]
People that have never owned a business do not understand what it takes to operate and pay employees.
I owned my first trans shop in 1980..... I never attended college, but I sure got a college education. Every time I turned around my accountant was handing me another tax bill to pay or pre-pay.
Snap on tools closed up the warehouse here in AZ years ago. WHY! you say? Taxes on inventory carried over to the next year was the primary reason.
How many employees know that the employer pays more SS taxes than is withheld from the employees check? Who pays for the uniform service and shop rags? Who pays for that micro wave oven in the break room? Or the coffee pot that no one will clean or take care of? Just get a new one.
Granted many shops now add on to repair bills for "shop supplies".
The place I work for had a run of bad "new" 700R4 pump rotors last year. We had to eat 8 transmissions / repairs and related costs due to rotor breakage. Our supplier replced the rotors.....BFD.
Some folks do not realize the full circle of costs to build a transmission or anything thing for that matter and then warranty it with absolutely no control over the product.
An example from my own sister in law.... My wife and her sister traveled to the Mediteranian Sea area several weeks ago. Her sister dropped her new 35mm camera the first day there and broke it. After arriving back in the USA she took the camera back to Target and got a FULL refund for a "defective" camera....... That is one reason prices keep going up.
Tony
------------------
2001 Ford 150 SuperCrew
2000 Silverado
1985 Camaro V6
1962 Ford Falcon
1961 Dodge Lancer 350 chevy power
1961 Morris Minor 1000
1961 BugEye Sprite
2-1951 Crosley wagons
1948 Crosley wagon
1947 Crosley Sedan
1947 Crosley Pick-up
1948 Simca
[This message has been edited by Crosley4 (edited November 10, 2001).]
11-10-2001, 11:30 AM
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This is all great info, and I'm taking it all in. I flushed another 8 qt of new fluid threw the trans. and included some additive and it helped. I may limp along with this for a while and save for a dealer remanufacture (1,400 bucks) and then put a shift kit in it. I have avoided working on auto trans. for years and maybe there is a reason for that. I was a diesel Mech. in the Coast Guard in the late 70's and had ran HVAC service for 10 years so i know the time s tech can spend on training and how little money a tech bring home. I'll still get the manual and learn more about the subject I have avoided for years.
11-10-2001, 11:40 AM
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Also I did want to coment on the warenty
Question. the quality of the parts and the knolage of the tech. are a very important isue in a dicision considering 100's of dollars. I don't want to spent the money just to have to turn around and spend twice as much to have it done rite. I'm old enough I have done that before and I will not go there again if I can help it. Thanks again every one for the responce, its all great info.
Question. the quality of the parts and the knolage of the tech. are a very important isue in a dicision considering 100's of dollars. I don't want to spent the money just to have to turn around and spend twice as much to have it done rite. I'm old enough I have done that before and I will not go there again if I can help it. Thanks again every one for the responce, its all great info.
11-10-2001, 02:08 PM
#23
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Ok, my questions have finally been answered. What you are actually saying is that the 700r4 is such an infernal piece of junk that shops have to jack the labor costs in order to cover themselves for the inevitable rash of failures. They are so bad that no matter how good the tech is, they're prone to failure anyway.
I actually am a business owner, so I totally understand warranty. As a note, I no longer deal in parts for my trade, as the small markup was not worth the cost of honoring the warranty. I now purchase parts at full retail and pass the parts invoices on to the consumer. In the event of a failure I still collect on labor, unless the failure was my fault.
I actually am a business owner, so I totally understand warranty. As a note, I no longer deal in parts for my trade, as the small markup was not worth the cost of honoring the warranty. I now purchase parts at full retail and pass the parts invoices on to the consumer. In the event of a failure I still collect on labor, unless the failure was my fault.
11-10-2001, 02:23 PM
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Do I detect a note of sarcasm?! Actually, once you know what it takes to fix them properly they are very reliable. I actually broke down the business process for just about anything, as you aparently agree from you comments about markup and warranty problems. I could give you much bigger horror stories concerning other transmissions and the 'learning curve'!
Now consider this. How about the factory reman units, of which we repair tons of all the time? Now they make the parts, not to mention that they designed and manufactured it in the first place and got paid once already for it! This is how in some cases they can offer a lower price than an aftermarket shop that will have to fix and prevent failures because they don't get their parts free. If someone suggests that they will instead get a factory unit I just laugh and tell them how these units are when they come to me! New and reman are not the same thing. When the factory builds these new they are consistently identicle. When you are talking about remans you have minimum wage people doing subassemblies that don't know or care how they work, it is another thing altogether. I have seen parts missing or missassembled. I have also seen the 'latest and greatest updates' that somehow must have missed this one. And to top it off, it is still the same unit with the same inherent design flaws and weaknesses.
Now consider this. How about the factory reman units, of which we repair tons of all the time? Now they make the parts, not to mention that they designed and manufactured it in the first place and got paid once already for it! This is how in some cases they can offer a lower price than an aftermarket shop that will have to fix and prevent failures because they don't get their parts free. If someone suggests that they will instead get a factory unit I just laugh and tell them how these units are when they come to me! New and reman are not the same thing. When the factory builds these new they are consistently identicle. When you are talking about remans you have minimum wage people doing subassemblies that don't know or care how they work, it is another thing altogether. I have seen parts missing or missassembled. I have also seen the 'latest and greatest updates' that somehow must have missed this one. And to top it off, it is still the same unit with the same inherent design flaws and weaknesses.
11-10-2001, 03:25 PM
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It sounds like you guys don't recomend a factory remanufacture. If this is the case, how do i go about finding someone to rebuild the tranny? Because we want to keep the car relatively stock.
11-14-2001, 11:19 PM
#26
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Car: 86 Z28
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Homer6699:
Discourage Inbreeding BAN Country Music.</font>
Discourage Inbreeding BAN Country Music.</font>
11-15-2001, 03:14 AM
#27
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Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Miniram'd 383, 24X LS1 PCM
Transmission: TH700R4, 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 9", 4.33:1
Well lets not play dumb here, people. The arguement that a problem can just keep happening to a transmission and blow the entire thing to pieces, costing the trans shop tons of $$$$ for ALL of the components, just isn't feasible. I am not saying it doesn't happen, because I have seen it happen. But that kind of a devistating failure doesn't happen enough to base the policies and labor rates of the shop by. If problems like that were all that came in the door, trans shops wouldn't be able to stay in business.
And if the shop has to spend a bunch of hours on redoing a trans build-up - they are most assuredly not out any money on the overall money taken in by said shop, in a given amount of time, from labor because they are taking in huge amounts of money per hour for labor, and handing the technicians such a minute fraction of it.
And every shop charges for shop rags and miscellaneous shop costs these days.
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
And if the shop has to spend a bunch of hours on redoing a trans build-up - they are most assuredly not out any money on the overall money taken in by said shop, in a given amount of time, from labor because they are taking in huge amounts of money per hour for labor, and handing the technicians such a minute fraction of it.
And every shop charges for shop rags and miscellaneous shop costs these days.
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
11-15-2001, 04:00 AM
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OK, how about story time from the real world and not just anger at high prices?
I'll give you two real world experences that could happen again and again if not for us biting the bullit to find the REAL cause of failure. Rest assured it wasn't some $100 O/H kit either.
Case #1: Nissan Pathfinder with an RE4R01A. This thing ate SIX geartrains (@$600/ea.) PLUS the converter and complete O/H and labor required until we nailed down WHY it was happening (It wasn't even the tranny causing it!!!!). Do the math, thats $3600 in geartrains PLUS at least that much in the other parts and labor to do the job. Of course the customer didn't pay that since he paid ONCE, the first time. This was when these units were new to us (and the industry).
Case #2: Dodge Caravan with an A604. This one was also out about six times as I recall and it wiped out a whole bunch of geartrains too (I don't recall what they were going for at the time but they weren't cheap either), not to mention all of the other parts that had to be replaced- converters, clutches, etc. This time it also was NOT the tranny causing the problem.
Now I also answer questions on a professionals only tranny forum and some of these problems are still being encountered by other shops so what do you think the cost of knowing how to fix/prevent these extremely expensive failures the first time should be? (Clue here: for those of you who are familiar with me and think that it was installing a TransGo Product that fixed them both and now you know the secret- Sorry, it wasn't that). I don't really care how you want to break down prices, although what I explained is the business approach.
What if Tech #1 didn't know the 'secrets' but he did install your favorite parts and itemized them all. Even though it wasn't 'fixed' would you be happy as long as he gave you a lowball price?
What if Tech #2 DID know how to 'fix' it but it didn't involve more than maybe $5 in parts and a 1/2 hour to do it (with regular tools besides), but he charged $100 MORE than the other Tech. Which would you choose to have work on your tranny?
Call it charging for a persons knowledge, experience, whatever. You get what you pay for in most instances. Not that a high price gauranties it but a low price? What does that say about them? Either they DON'T know what their doing, haven't been around long enough to see what can really happen or they don't know their own worth- in which case, get 'em before they figure it out or throw in the towel.
One last thing, in case you think this is some esoteric discussion that never happens in the real world, your favorite 700's like to eat up geartrains too!
I'll give you two real world experences that could happen again and again if not for us biting the bullit to find the REAL cause of failure. Rest assured it wasn't some $100 O/H kit either.
Case #1: Nissan Pathfinder with an RE4R01A. This thing ate SIX geartrains (@$600/ea.) PLUS the converter and complete O/H and labor required until we nailed down WHY it was happening (It wasn't even the tranny causing it!!!!). Do the math, thats $3600 in geartrains PLUS at least that much in the other parts and labor to do the job. Of course the customer didn't pay that since he paid ONCE, the first time. This was when these units were new to us (and the industry).
Case #2: Dodge Caravan with an A604. This one was also out about six times as I recall and it wiped out a whole bunch of geartrains too (I don't recall what they were going for at the time but they weren't cheap either), not to mention all of the other parts that had to be replaced- converters, clutches, etc. This time it also was NOT the tranny causing the problem.
Now I also answer questions on a professionals only tranny forum and some of these problems are still being encountered by other shops so what do you think the cost of knowing how to fix/prevent these extremely expensive failures the first time should be? (Clue here: for those of you who are familiar with me and think that it was installing a TransGo Product that fixed them both and now you know the secret- Sorry, it wasn't that). I don't really care how you want to break down prices, although what I explained is the business approach.
What if Tech #1 didn't know the 'secrets' but he did install your favorite parts and itemized them all. Even though it wasn't 'fixed' would you be happy as long as he gave you a lowball price?
What if Tech #2 DID know how to 'fix' it but it didn't involve more than maybe $5 in parts and a 1/2 hour to do it (with regular tools besides), but he charged $100 MORE than the other Tech. Which would you choose to have work on your tranny?
Call it charging for a persons knowledge, experience, whatever. You get what you pay for in most instances. Not that a high price gauranties it but a low price? What does that say about them? Either they DON'T know what their doing, haven't been around long enough to see what can really happen or they don't know their own worth- in which case, get 'em before they figure it out or throw in the towel.
One last thing, in case you think this is some esoteric discussion that never happens in the real world, your favorite 700's like to eat up geartrains too!
11-15-2001, 12:51 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One last thing, in case you think this is some esoteric discussion that never happens in the real world, your favorite 700's like to eat up geartrains too!
</font>
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Leo,
This is part of the answer to my questions. Apparantly the 700 is more prone to far-reaching failure than the TH350/400. If it were my business, I'd charge higher rates for it too, or flat out refuse to deal with 'em. Something to consider: If it were a new shop just getting started with very little operating capital, a strictly time/materials rate on a transmission like this could spell financial disaster for the shop in the event of what appears to be *common* failure. I was merely trying to understand where these shops were coming from with the high rates.
11-15-2001, 01:34 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Miniram'd 383, 24X LS1 PCM
Transmission: TH700R4, 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 9", 4.33:1
You da man Leo, no doubt there.
I think a lot of the points in your reply also validate my point.
The idea that if you get charged a little more than you should have for a repair but you got a higher quality repair from a more knowledgable tech is precisely the problem. I agree that most customers will happily accept the trade off and it is always easy for us in the business to say that that is nothing, but whether the tech understands it or not - he is getting the shaft. Every time. And he is the one directly responsible for the business making that extra money, or going under. The tech isn't going to see that extra money that the shop took in. It will go for a hundred different things before he gets a raise. OK ok ok... Maybe I am a bit cynical, and some shop owners/managers would reward the tech with better pay, but they would be the absolute minority in the business. And I am cynical from my experience in being a tech and talking to so many techs that cannot wait to get the he11 out of the business. EVERY tech I worked with said "GET OUT! Get out while you can!!!" They just about threw a friggen party and danced in the streets when I decided to quit and go back to school!!
So.... my angle that the rates are just plain getting out of control, stands, on those grounds that the techs are the ones responsible for the quality of the work (which is basically how much warranty coverage is gong to cost the shop) and the cost of the rebuild to the shop, but don't see jack from the crazy labor rates.
But, yes Mojo, boxes like the TH700R4 that have a lot of issues, will cost more to the customer every time. That will never go away.
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
I think a lot of the points in your reply also validate my point.
The idea that if you get charged a little more than you should have for a repair but you got a higher quality repair from a more knowledgable tech is precisely the problem. I agree that most customers will happily accept the trade off and it is always easy for us in the business to say that that is nothing, but whether the tech understands it or not - he is getting the shaft. Every time. And he is the one directly responsible for the business making that extra money, or going under. The tech isn't going to see that extra money that the shop took in. It will go for a hundred different things before he gets a raise. OK ok ok... Maybe I am a bit cynical, and some shop owners/managers would reward the tech with better pay, but they would be the absolute minority in the business. And I am cynical from my experience in being a tech and talking to so many techs that cannot wait to get the he11 out of the business. EVERY tech I worked with said "GET OUT! Get out while you can!!!" They just about threw a friggen party and danced in the streets when I decided to quit and go back to school!!
So.... my angle that the rates are just plain getting out of control, stands, on those grounds that the techs are the ones responsible for the quality of the work (which is basically how much warranty coverage is gong to cost the shop) and the cost of the rebuild to the shop, but don't see jack from the crazy labor rates.
But, yes Mojo, boxes like the TH700R4 that have a lot of issues, will cost more to the customer every time. That will never go away.
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
11-15-2001, 06:49 PM
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I have a couple of theories. One is that most people think that buying a tranny repair is just like buying a gallon of milk (OK, a little more expensive maybe), you are getting the same thing just paying different prices. The other is that it seems that you can't get a raise unless you are ready to leave a shop. It's too bad.
I actually wonder if the tranny trade will turn out like the Starter/Alternator business or the Carburetor business, all of which I have done by the way. It is getting very difficult to find people who want to get their hands dirty considering that the same skills needed for transmissions and the auto business in general are also sought out by other high tech fields that don't involve getting dirty crawling around a car or truck. At the same time the complexities of cars as gone up many times just since I got in the business. So I guess I see your point and have to ask myself where things will be in 10-15 years.
I actually wonder if the tranny trade will turn out like the Starter/Alternator business or the Carburetor business, all of which I have done by the way. It is getting very difficult to find people who want to get their hands dirty considering that the same skills needed for transmissions and the auto business in general are also sought out by other high tech fields that don't involve getting dirty crawling around a car or truck. At the same time the complexities of cars as gone up many times just since I got in the business. So I guess I see your point and have to ask myself where things will be in 10-15 years.
11-18-2001, 04:54 AM
#32
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Car: 90 RS / 89 IROC
Engine: 305 TBI / 305 TPI
Transmission: 700R4 / T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.08
For what it's worth, I got a 700r4 from "The Tranny Dr." about 2 years ago and have had no problems with it at all. (Except he sent it with a deep trans pan, bad idea). The price was about $800 and it has the vette servo and a shift kit. I think his prices have gone up but they are still good. Even came with a new TC. I can locate his contact info if needed. fubarnow@aol.com if you want the info.
11-19-2001, 03:29 AM
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Thanks, As of a week ago we (my daughter and I) are digging the $$$$ for a Pro Built street/strip 700 R4 and new tork converter.
3 days ago 3rd and 4th gears no longer wanted to work, oh well "stuff happens", we got the TA for a good price and are thrilled to be working on it. This will be her first car in 6 months when she gets her liecenes, its lots of fun for me to can't wait to run in on track and get some times to post.
3 days ago 3rd and 4th gears no longer wanted to work, oh well "stuff happens", we got the TA for a good price and are thrilled to be working on it. This will be her first car in 6 months when she gets her liecenes, its lots of fun for me to can't wait to run in on track and get some times to post.
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