chevyracer8262

iTrader: (1)

Need a little advice on this I've built ceveral 700r4's but have never put one behind anything like I have now. Is it possible to build a 700r4 that can handle around 500ftlbs of torque on a daily basis? Cause when I'm finished with my 402BBC it's esitmated to be building around 450 ftlbs of torque with around 400hp. The last one I built was for my 91 Z71 i had and with it I used Alto red eagle racing clutches, 4th gear power pack with koline treated plates, .500" boost valve, Corvette servos, b&m shiftkit and a 97 gmc jimmy v6 converter. Could a transmission built with those same items hold up to the abuse of a nicely built bbc? Or does anyone have any suggestions on parts to use? Cause I have an 89 700r4 that's a perfect candidate for a build up cause I just pulled it out of my truck after the oil pump seized up.

TKOPerformance

Sure it's possible. Get a full kit from Pro-Built with a Transgo shift kit, the Beast sunshell, and the Vette servos. Use an aftermarket converter with an anti-balloon plate. You can delete the lockup function if you don't feel you need it. A non-lockup converter is about half the cost of a lockup one. Unless the stall is high (over 2,800 RPM) there's really no practical advantage to a lockup converter. Lockup is more of a gas milage thing than anything else, although it will help reduce trans fluid temp if you can lock the converter at cruising speed.

BTW, The B&M shift kits are garbage. I've used two and found that the quality of the shifts is terrible compared to the TransGo. The Alto red clutch are not the hot ticket for the 700R4. The Pro Built kit will give you BW High Energy frictions which are much better.

chevyracer8262

iTrader: (1)

Yea I was kinda supprised at the B&M kit being nothing but servo spacers and stiffer tv spring. I used a transgo full manual kit in my th350 i had in my camaro and never had an issue with it. Thanks that's the kinda info I was looking for anymore input or advide would be appreciated, i've always raced th350's and 400's and have heard from a couple transmission guys i know that they can't hold up but so many people are running them that they have to be able to do it.

TKOPerformance

I found the same thing when I was looking to build up my 700R4. The local shops all claimed they were junk and I needed a TH350. Well, a 700R4 is basically a TH350 with overdrive, so how could a TH350 be so good and the 700R4 be so bad? The truth is that the old school guys don't know what it takes to make them work. Once I talked to Dana at Pro-Built I was convinced that the 700R4 was just as tough as a TH350, and better because of the overdrive. The other thing I think happened is that the first couple of years of the 700R4 they had issues with the 3/4 clutch packs and the lockup converters. This was all ironed out by about '85, and from there forward the 700R4 got better and better until it morphed into the 4L60E and finally the 4L65E.

The best advice I can give you is get in contact with Dana from Pro Built. He will walk you through the build and a couple of blueprinting and small modifications he does to really make these things work. The guy's a genius with the 700R4.

chevyracer8262

iTrader: (1)

thanks alot for all the info.

ls six

Just a suggestion here but look into the 200-4R before you decide anything.

Out of the box they are proabably enough for your aplication as far as stregnth is concerned and you'll just need to address shift quality as most are non-performance units and any wear pressent in the core unit.


The advantages are superior stregnth to the 700 (upwards of 1000 CHP capable with a few hardparts) better ratio spread. Meaning there's no 1-2 bog that you might notice with the 700. < thats not really an issue with a street BBC but you will se a difference at the strip.

It's lighter than the only other overdrive trans that might be stronger (4L80E) and ofcourse I'm forgeting the Allison 2K for obvious reasons lol.


Disadvantages are no TQ arm mount as the case is one piece with no removable tail housing.

The preffered cores are kind of rare but not impossible to find. You'll want one from a late model G body with a performance package. The GN/GNX trans is the most famous but the turbo T's, 442's and SS's all use similar valve bodies.

Internals are the same regardless of the car and the non performance VB can be swapped with a modded one from the likes of Art Carr at his new shop.

TKOPerformance

I agree that all things beign equal the 2004R is a better trans. However, all things are not equal. With no torque arm mount you just added $369+shipping to the cost for a crossmember mounted torque arm system (Spohn is the only company I know who makes them for this setup). The 2004R is a longer transmission, so using a stock driveshaft is out of the question, add $250-$350 for a custom made driveshaft. The gear spread between 1st and 2nd will not be an issue with a big block that has a broad torque curve. I agree that the ratios are not exactly ideal. If you really want to you can change this in the 700R4 with aftermarket planetaries, but the cost doesn't justify it IMO. Plenty of guys run powerglides behind big blocks, so if they will work a 700R4 should be better than okay.

The 700R4 is more than capable of handling what you are going to throw at it. I agree that the 2004R is inhernetly a better trnasmission, but for this application the cost to benefit ratio is just not favorable enough to merit swapping in hardware that never came in an F body from the factory.

ls six

For this app I would look at an X member TQ arm mount anyway as the stock tail housing can break at this point, and even without actual breakage distortion throughout the trans can cause excessive wear on a road car's trans.

I have seen a blown 700 WHP BBC elcamino gain .20 in the quarter mile with a 200-4R swap over a similar 700 that grenaded at the strip after a few years.


In a more mild app I would be comfortable with an early 3rd gen tail shaft. Many early 3rd gens came with 200c's that are the same legnth and spline count as the 200-4R so it's a direct swap.

As it is a custom shaft may be needed eventualy if the car see's a lot of strip use.

TKOPerformance

On a road car nothing will ever get loaded enough to cause distortion or breakage. The tires are always the fuse in a street car. The tires will simply go up in smoke long before you load anything enough to cause damage. I've seen cars with WC T5s behind 383s in street cars that never break. I'd also be a lot more concerned about the stock rear than I would about the torque arm mount.

If it's a strip car you should be running a full aftermarket rear suspension anyway, so I agree that moving the TA mount off the trans should be your move anyway. The stock rear is totally suspect at this point too.

I like to play devil's advocate unless you haven't guessed, so let me finish up with that duty. .2 seconds off the time of a car that makes 700HP is only going to equate to around .11 seconds off the time of a car that makes 400HP. That also assumes that all things are equal. If they aren't there may be no difference at all. Every .1 second is the equivalent of 10HP. IMO it's easier to get another 10HP out of a motor that it is to swap to a different trans.

As for the 700R4 breaking, it probably wasn't built right. Dana has a 700R4 in a 9 second car that has lasted five seasons without so much as a freshening. Pro Built is to the 700R4 what Art Carr is to the 2004R. Would you trust a 2004R built by some no-name shop that builds mostly TH350s and TH400s? I sure wouldn't. The knowledge of the builder is of paramount importance in making a trans like this live. Most shops would try and convince you to swap to a TH400 or a powerglide. The TH400 is great if you don't mind wasting 25% of your engine's power, and the powerglide's great if you like running 5.13 gears. I'll stick with an OD trans so I can have my cake and eat it too.

marine68

i gather from these threads that the lock up function is in the converter and not the trans. i have a 700r4 in which i removed the ecm and i was wondering why should i get a lockup kit when i can convert the trans to a non lockup type. i read an article that art carr can convert tr200 to non lockup. does anyone sells parts to convert the tr400. or is it cheaper to replace my old converter with a hi perf converter without lockup. what about the trans, can it stayed modded for lockup.

Pro Built Automatics

Rick Abare's mid nine second, 138-142 mph 1996 Firebird, takes the transmission out every 450-500 passes and tightens the 3-4 clutch pack clearance. The Borg Warner Hi-Energys wear, but do not burn the clutches, and last well over 1,500 passes, before being replaced. This is a nine clutch setup, using the 4L65E BW Hi-E's. He replaces the one reverse/input and one low/reverse clutch, as "one" does not hold up for any longer than this. This unit has the late heat treated GM sunshell, and not the Beast, (which I said should last if the unit is built properly) and it is lighter, and "balanced". The Beast is heavy and not "balanced". He has over 2,500 passes on it, and that is with the billet 2nd apply servo and the Borg Warner Hi-Energy band. If the GM sunshell were going to break, it would be here, especially with 1.24-1.28 sixty foot times. This is the only vehicle that I have ever let the person use the billet 2nd apply servo. I prefer the Sonnax 2nd apply servo over the billet. It is much easier on everything. The other three high nine second vehicles have used the Corvette servo with the Borg Warner Hi-Energy band. As for the 2004r going faster and quicker in the quarter mile. I have seen "direct comparisons on three separate occasions (using the same torque converter with 27 splines) gain on average of a tenth and a mile per hour in the quarter mile. With Rick Abare's, the removal of the four low/reverse clutches and the removal of three of the reverse input clutches combined with adding turbulator steels, we feel the difference here is so little as not to even being concerned with it. The big rpm drop on the 1-2 shift in the 700R4 is almost identical with the Powerglide. The advantage here with the 700R4 is that you have less rolling and less wind resistance, because it is happening so early in the quarter mile, as compared to the Powerglide. The small torque converters have a lot less rpm drop between gears, which "hides" the big span in the gear ratio spread. All of the above transmissions is with using my parts and recommendations. Dana

TKOPerformance

From the mouth of the man himself.