84redta

iTrader: (34)

ok, i've done the research and just have a couple questions...

- can you use the 4th gen driveshaft with no problems???

- i was reading the tech article and it suggested the rear proportioning valve...does that still use the one brake line or do i need to pick up the proportioning valve off of the master cylinder???

- any sources to figure out the RPO codes while i'm in the junk yard? I'm looking at a 98 Camaro and a 99 Firebird, both had the 3800 V6 but both have rear disk brakes, and i'm looking more for that at the moment than posi. I won't have any problems laying my mere 170 HP to the road...but stopping that 3400lbs of metal i can always use more help.

- can i use a pannard bar or the other two mounting bars to mount this rear end from the 4th gen or do i use my stock pannard and two mounting bars?

- and just for re-assurance everything is straight bolt up with little fabrication other than for the e-brake cables. right???

84redta

iTrader: (34)

forgot to mention...i got a 88 which i believe is the electronic speedo year...but what do i do about speedo gears that go into the tranny? Can i use the one out of the 4th gen in my t-5???

84redta

iTrader: (34)

Anybody!?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Drive shaft, yes as long as you have a 700r4 trans or T5 manual. Not sure about th200's

IF you have factory disk brakes you can use a 4th gen rear without a new proportioning valve, but its nice to have it setup perfect. if you have drums originally, you should upgrade to a 89-92 style proportioning valve.

As far as RPO codes, i dont know. But i do believe all 4th gen rears got the same style disk brakes. 98+ have the bigger 12 inch disks. 93-97 have the smaller 11.65 PBR style brakes. both are good brakes. V6 cars should have open differential, and possible 3.42 gears. I dont know tho for sure, they could have any gear from 2.73 to 3.42.

You can use your stock thirdgen panhard bar and lower control arm bars. everything bolts in just fine except for the e-brake cables and possible main brake line connection. For disk thirdgens, it should connect together just fine. For drums i have heard it works just fine too but you should check your brake line connection on your rear, and then look at the 4th gens rear connection

ALSO you do not want a 4th gen rear that has traction control or a 4 channel rear. You want a 3 channel rear so the brake lines will connect to the thirdgens factory body hardline

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

4th gen V-6's have 2 piece driveshafts FYI

84redta

iTrader: (34)

ok i stripped the interior of this 99 firebird and saw no traction control button or anything, just a button that said "2nd". I thought all v8s got TC in 94 and all v6's in like 96 or 97??? The other one is a 98 camaro. Visually how should i look at these rear axles??? I mean what visually should i be looking at. The TC rear axles...is there wires to the rear end? If i'm not mistaken the brake pedal of the 99 bird said Anit Lock. will that interfere with what i'm doing? And what is a 3 channel vs. 4 channel. I know third gen axles...i haven't educated myself completely on 4th gen and the changes.

Say you were going to the junk yard and you figured that you wanted the axle...what would you do step by step look for...like look for this mark, avoid that, ect.

This is going into a WC T5 manual tranny. Ok so i'm assuming i can't use a 2 piece drive shaft? But i'm also guessing the stock universal joint will mount up yolk to yolk with no probs, right?

I have original rear drum brakes. What was he talking about in the tech article when he said to get an adjustable proportioning valve?? Is that capable of splitting one line into two so that i don't have to run two new lines?? What is special about the 89+ proportioning valve vs. the 88 and below? Just trying to familularize myself with this before i take a single bolt out. Thanks for any input.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you go to the junk yard, you want a rear end with brake hardlines mounted to the axle housing. You want them to look like the thirdgens brake lines. They should meet at a T block on the drivers side part of the axle housing, and there should be a single line to connect to the thirdgen's hardline thats on the body of the car.

That is known as a 3 channel. ABS doesnt matter, its traction control that makes the swap harder. traction control has 2 seperate brake lines for each rear disk. So you cant easily connect both of them to the single thirdgen line. you would have to get a t-block and run 3 channel brake lines.


an adjustable proportioning valve adjusts pressure bias of the brake fluid to the front and rear disks. I think drum cars have alot more rear brake pressure in the lines compared to teh front disks. SO if you add disks in the rear, you may lock up the rears when you dont want to. you need a valve to adjust the brake fluid bias to more of a 65/35 front/rear brake bias. 89+ valves were on cars with the bigger 11.65 rear brakes so i suggest getting that as it will match better with the 4th gen rear brakes. If you get a 93-97 car its perfect as they use the same brakes. If you use a 98+ they are abit bigger brakes but still will work fine.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

yea, at the junk yard there is a 93 formula with drums, a 98 camaro with disks, and a 99 firebird with disks...so i'm not going to back track, i'm going to stick with the 98 or 99 so it'll be the bigger brakes. Sounds better to me .

I see what you mean by the proportioning valve, my only issue is finding a junkyard with a car with rear disks that new. I was actually hoping that the 93+ would mount up, but i highly doubt that unless i swap the brake booster. I see what you mean by the 3 channel part and i thank you for clearing that up. I didn't know that they ran a 3 channel for rear disk brakes. I always thought that with disks you always needed your own line which would mean the 4 channel. I'll hope out of the two cars that they don't have traction control and that they are 3 channel.

If i do run into that problem though that it is 4 channel and/or traction control car your saying i can simply run a t-block and that issue is cured properly? (i.e. they will function still as they were designed)

Only issue with finding that 89+ proportioning valve is that around my area the junkyards scrap firebirds immediately for sum ungodly reason. They see no value in them. I got one junkyard 25 miles away from me with 3 F-bodies...all older, and then i got one 35 miles away with 2 or 3, 1 newer but base model v6 so i know it doesn't have disks...and then the place i'm finding like 6 more 3rd gens and these three 4th gens is over an hour and a half away from my house...so i'm out on a limb trying to find parts to do this job successfully.

So theoretically since i'm having a hard time finding a proportioning valve (i haven't tried yet but if i do with no success...) your saying i can take my drum brake line...get an adjustable proportioning valve....and i'll be able to run it that way (drum proportioining valve to adjustable proportioning valve)?...i'll just have to fiddle with it to get the propper brake feel? Cause that sounds good to me if i can't find the proper proportioning valve for my car. Thanks again for all the help!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yes i did the same thing. I got a 4 channel from a 00 trans am and just put 3 channel lines on. There was two rears the junkyard had, and only 1 had the 3.42 gears i wanted. it was a 4 channel. the other was a 3.23 rear but with 3 channel lines. I just had him swap the lines for me.


I do believe for drum cars, if you upgrade the brake proportioning valve, you should have good brake bias once you dial it in. Some ppl have used the drum stuff when they swapped to disk and have no problems. I wouldnt chance it.

As far as finding disk proportioning valve, i guess you can ask around this site if anyone has one off a junked car or something.... or else maybe ebay or similar? I'm sure there is an aftermarket dealer of those valves somewhere tho.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

yea i haven't found aftermarket valves that go off the brake booster yet...i just found the "performance" adjustable ones mentioned in the tech article. I will probably try and find one on here just because then i can swap them and thats all...no cutting lines...no double flairing...no worry of a leak later on ya know? And as far as ebay...i use that to sell things...people spend way too much on there and i don't mind selling...but when it comes to buying if i can get something that will work perfectly the same locally with a warranty instead of having to worry the entire time when the demise of the unit will be...it's a little piece of mind for me.

Yea i wouldn't change change axles and then just use drum lines either, and i don't mind adding an adjustable proportioning valve to the line. I got all the tools so i figured i'd go with it.

Yea i don't know what i want to get....i got 3.08...and i haven't a clue what the v6 auto's got normally in 98+ applications...but i believe it's mid 3's...which i think would be cool for acceleration but i don't know if that is really going to make my fuel economy suffer. I'm doing this primarily for better brakes. But if i can find a 3.23 i think i might go with that but that sounds like it might've been on a T56 application.

Just curious what did you spend on your rear that you have and did you get it loaded or bare?
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oh yea...and i got 15" rims on my firebird...the tech article said that the stock rims will fit but didn't mention what he was refering to as in the stock size...with 12" rotors do i have to worry for my 15" rims?! I just thoght of that...please tell me gm found a way to make the offset the same and to fit in under 3 inches!!!!

camaronewbie

I don't know about the 15's - I have 16's. I got a rear from a 1999 bird, but it was the LS1 v8 car, so it had the big LS1 rear disks on it - they would NOT fit under 15's I don't think - my 15 spare wouldn't work with them.

Easiest on the proportioning valve is to just get one from the stealership, or try Carquest or Napa maybe. I got one from dealership, paid like $80 for it - it plumbs right in (a direct swap). ANY of the aftermarket adjustable proportioning valves you will have to have lines made for.

I never knew about 2 piece drive shafts in 4th gen v6 cars.

Not that it's gospel, but I was under the impression that most 4th gen v6's had 3.42 gears and posi, but what do I know? Only true way to know what it has is to take the diff. cover off and find the stamp or count the gears, and actually see the posi unit.

I think I paid $200 for mine from a private seller who had a totalled car.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

yea...i'm hearing that 4th gen...aparently 98-02 brake boosters bolt right in...which would give me the newer (nicer) looking master cylinder and the proportioning valve GM created for the 99 i'm taking it off of. I have PMed someone about this with no responce. Can anyone else back this up?! I don't mind the work if it's very little, lol. Naw if it bolts in...i don't have to worry about it leaking through the firewall...and from there the brake pedal mounts right up and the master/proportioning valve hooks up from there, i don't feel bad about running one more new line to the back for the new rear axle. Anyone have any input on this???
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and only reason i'm thinking about this idea is the fact that my booster and all are all original '88. Give or take time will take a toll and this stuff will give in. The parts car i've got available to me is a 98-99, so 10 years newer and less miles. Not to mention i'm assuming that there was better technology put into 4th gen as it came along. Along with the fact that i can either get an 89+ proportioning valve for give or take $50+...and i can get the booster, proportioing valve, and master cylinder for $50 on the dot. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

camaronewbie

There's no need for the master cylinder, or booster, or any other brake lines - just get the proportioning valve and swap it out. (unless of course there's something wrong with your m/c or booster)

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

If you look at a V-6 4th gen f-body from 97-up and see dual exhaust pipes out of the muffler, 4 wdb, then it came with 3.42's for sure. It was callexd some performance package
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Oh and when they got this stuff they also got posi as well

84redta

iTrader: (34)

that is friggen awesome!!! i remember it had dual exhaust :-D Any off chance you konw the RPO for posi??
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but please someone confirm that this will work with my 15's :'(...i'm going to cry if they don't. I'm getting told that the rotor is 12"...i don't see a caliper being more than 3"??? I could very well be wrong tho. Please someone put me out of my misery of not knowing and someone that does know chime in Thank you guys!!!

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

was like Y87 Y82 something like that .... My 97 has it bought the car new. so yes part of the package was dual pipes out of the muffler, 4 wheel disc brakes, 3.42 gears, posi. .... Mine also came with those 5 spoke chrome 16 inch wheels. However the performance package gave it 235/55r16 tires verses base camaro tires which were I believe 225 something 16's.the 2 piece driveshaft uses a carrier bearing mounted to that long bar from the rearend to the transmission tail-shaft. so yea this 97 has a 2 piece driveline.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

please tell me you got like 1/2+ inches of room between caliper and rim and i'll be so happy with you , lol

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

I will mount a N-78 15 inch 85 trans am wheel on it tomorrow and let you know. but I can tell even the 97 brakes will slow you down real nice this one has real nice breaks. I also heard if you got the performance package you got a zexeltorsen posi but not sure of that rumor.
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Y87 3800 V6 Performance PackageThe Y87 3800 V6 Performance Package upgraded the vehicle with Auburn limited slip differential (same differential used on V8 models), 11.4" single-piston caliper rear disc brakes (same rear brakes as V8 models), a dual outlet muffler, a quicker 14.4:1steering ratio (same ratio as V8 models), 235/55-16 tires. The Y87 package also gave automatic cars 3.42 rear gears, whereas the manual cars but kept the 3.23 rear gearsthere found that for you. available starting in 1996

84redta

iTrader: (34)

that would be awesome if you can post tomorrow...cause i'm going to the junkyard monday and i NEED to know...as i will most likely not be able to find a decent set of pontiac rims for my ride, and i don't wanna spend all that much. Thats the prob i wanna spend a little and expect a lot. What does zexeltorsen posi mean exactly other than obviously thats the company. They good...they reliable? I have the opportunity to spend a little over a $100 on the one i'm looking at and i just want to make sure that it's all good...quality and wheels will fit. The car was just simply side swiped...maybe 2-3 inches in on the front bumper on the pass side and nothing in the back. I don't even understand why it was totaled but i'm not complaining :-D. Already got the center console out of her for $15 so i'm happy so far. If you can do me this solid favor and get back to me as early as conveniently possible that would be awesome. Like i said i'm going out to the junkyard at 7AM monday so sunday night would be crutial. Thank you so much for your help!!!

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

cold out but I stuck my fingers in where calipers are and my 16 inch wheels have maybe 1 1/2-1 3/4 inch clearance between the rotor and rim so I think a 15 will work but you will know tomorrow.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

i'll be waiting to hear your word :-D

84redta

iTrader: (34)

ok here's another question guys...if i pick up the 3.42 fourth gen rear axle from the JY...what do i do for the speedo gear in my car??? Is there one in this 99 i can pick out(i thoght they went digital and use ECM, but i'm just asking incase i'm wrong), or is there a 3.42 gear for my 88 T5 tranny i can find/get??? I don't want to have to deal with a screwy speedo. My car is in my profile by the way, the 88 firebird/305 TBI/T5/3.08 original. Thanks for any help guys!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

some 15's willclear, some will not. Some will only clear with clearancing to the brake caliper...aka grinding down the caliper

i had to do a LOT of grinding to fit LS1 style 12inch brakes under my 15 inch weld prostar rims

84redta

iTrader: (34)

yea i threw my 15" diamond spokes from my 88 bird on it and they fit with just a hair of room. Nothing to cause severe resistance though. The 98 camaro and 99 firebird both had dual exhaust but no Y87 sooooo, all they had was the POS open 3.08 i already got...yea they had disks but for the $115 i was going to pay it wasn't worth it to me. Thank you all for all your guys help. This information will surely help me in the future when i go to try and do this again with the axle i really want. Just a little FYI incase anyone is researching and finds this. I have been told already that V8 booster will bolt directly up to 3rd gen as mentioned above. I have spoken to three chevrolet dealers and one pontiac. They confirmed that v6 or v8...98-02 are identical, therefore should bolt directly up to our 3rd gens. Thats just putting a lil 2 + 2 together between dealership information on compatability between 98-02 and what people have experienced in their 98-02 complete ls1 powertrain/brake swaps. I wish anyone interesting in doing this swap luck. Thank you all!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

sidenote to add.. check clearances with a hot/warm caliper. they expand with heat from driving so if you check it cold, it may clear. Once hot tho, it could expand and take up all that clearance

84redta

iTrader: (34)

good poing...cold it will fit...i had a little bit of mud inside of my rim and it was just rubbing that and that is like a 1/32 or 1/16 of an inch thick. But it rubbed it away so that you can see where you need to grind if you need to keep 15's. Also so i know in the future....am i right about the ecu controlling vehicle speedometer in 93+??? How do you re-adjust your speedo in an '88 which i believe is digital. Is there any other way other than looking at the back of the speedo for a cable to check if i got a digital set-up??? (not the digital face but digital signals) Thank you!

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

oh I forgot about you but a 15 fit my 97

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i thought the speedos in those year cars were cable driven? i had to get transmission speedo gears to correct the speedo. i dont know how the firebirds are

84redta

iTrader: (34)

maro's and birds should be identical as they received the same exact powertrains after '93 for the most part. I didn't know for sure, i just assumed that coming that far everthing else was digital. I guess what i'm asking is anyone can confirm that the speedo gears inside auto/manual trannies can go into my T5 so that if i was to find a v6/v8 automatic/manaul with the rear gears i like from a fourth gen. I would like to know if i can simply pull the speedo gear and pull the axle and plug and play for the most part the rest of the project.

And just sum more FYI...the v6 i crawled under at the junkyard didn't have th Y87 so they had the basic 3.08, so that may make the difference...but they did NOT have 2 piece driveshafts so. Not all v6's had the 2 piece...at least not the 98 and 99 i looked at. It may be an older thing or it may just be a package thing with something else. I don't know.

Thank you for the help NowTheBadNews. At least that helps me know i can find a 93-97 and i can do the direct swap if i stumble upon something i like. Thank you all!

livewire

iTrader: (10)

are you sure about that? i did a transmission on a 98 with a 3800 and it was a one piece...

84redta

iTrader: (34)

yea i was looking at two 3800's and they were one piece...i'm thinking the performance package Y87 potentially did a two piece...he owns a 97 so i'm assuming he's going by his car.