Batass

So money got short and it might be a while until I can afford a good "drop up" 12 bolt. Im throwing around the idea again of an 8.5.

Biggest problem-cast iron. It can be welded and I'm almost certain I can find someone around here to weld the steel torque arm to it.

Width-2nd gen Camaro?

You can buy the brackets and mounts offline for around $150 I believe.

Im trying to figure out what the rough total cost would be to make it super strong.

Axles-$250
TrueTrac-400
Gears-300

I'm at $1100!!!!!!!!! Dont even have the rear yet....and what about the rest of the center section? Strong enough? Yoke?

AlkyIROC

Probably still a lot cheaper to just go with a 9" bolt in housing and pick up your own center section from an auto wrecker.

I'm going to give a rough estimate of $500 to get the welding done properly. Even then I doubt there will be an guarantee that the case won't get distorted from the amount of heat required to weld to cast. Welding to cast isn't hard by someone who knows what they're doing. Welding to a diff case that has bearing races in alignment and keeping everything from becoming distorted is the hard part.

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

i would not attempt to weld onto the cast pumpkin the welds will always break on you.
this rear end is strong enough,we stayed with them in the GNs till 9.20 w/moser axles and c-clip eliminators then we back-halved the car.
ditch the tq arm completely and use this set up it is rear end friendly(as in can use virtually any solid axle housing in your car

http://www.g-forcesuspension.com/pag...og/i.php/81/55

its pricey but its what i got,i will be a monkeys uncle before i put a FORD part in my Z28.

Batass

Your right on the races, I didnt think about that.
Hey I feel the same way about ford parts and my car. lol. The price isnt that bad, considering a good torque arm is about $450. As far as the welding goes, I was figuring about 250, but I guess it could be 500 if you have to weld near races.

About upper control arms though.....I dont like the fact that they pull. I just dont think unibodies are good for a pulling force. Mustangs have lots of problems with the upper control arm mounts pulling off the frame. Lots of twisting, tearing.
But if you havent had any problems with this, and 9.2 is quite the test, I think it would be a great solution.
But that puts total cost at 1700 plus the cost of a junked 8.5 plus new bearings and seals.
Crap!!!!! A bolt in moser is 2300.

I need the locker, I wont do my own gears, am I exaggerating the cost here, or am I right in thinking I may as well just wait for a moser (or strange)?

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

i am a budget racer,i have been fortunate enough that every 8.5 i have pulled from the yard had good bearings 100.00,found a used posi or used a mini spool 90.00,added the gear for 450.00,having the pearches welded on was NEVER more than 50.00 then the price of the g-force(prior to the g-force i would use ladder bars and the factory set up minus the LCA's.go for it bro whats the worst that could happen,bearings eventually do go bad then replace them but i am sure you will get some runs in ling before it becomes a problem.
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i am a budget racer,i have been fortunate enough that every 8.5 i have pulled from the yard had good bearings 100.00,found a used posi or used a mini spool 90.00,added the gear for 450.00,moser axles w/elim kit350.00,having the pearches welded on was NEVER more than 50.00 then the price of the g-force(prior to the g-force i would use ladder bars and the factory set up minus the LCA's.go for it bro whats the worst that could happen,bearings eventually do go bad then replace them but i am sure you will get some runs in long before it becomes a problem.

Batass

Thats still $1800 with a locker. I want to run this car on the street often, and I dont want a spool. It would save me about 500 bucks, but I'd have to do a lot of work and it wouldnt be quite as strong as a 12 bolt.

I think I'll just beef up my stock tq arm, maybe try and stiffen the mount too.

Buying one already set up and ready to go that night is worth 500 bucks to me. Thanks for showing me that ladder bar kit, thats not a bad price and might be a good ticket for low 10's.....

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

The only reason i'm against the Ford setup is that you're trying to match up the right width (or get it shortened $$$$), and then the bolt pattern will be goofy, so you need new wheels, which won't match, etc etc.
The 8.5" I think is plenty strong, and from a 2nd gen WILL be the right width, with the right bolt pattern.

I'd just make the brackets, with a chop saw and a hole saw with a drill press. Can't be too bad. Or buy them, your call.

Welding brackets to the tubes, and brackets to themselves ought to be easy.

Welding the TA bracket that you make, to the housing would be a bit tricky. I'd avoid joining it to the housing near any bearings (I didn't think of that either, good thing someone here is on the ball). Tack weld it in place with one or two tacks. Then pre-heat the whole thing (tiger torch? etc?) Use a heat crayon or IR thermometer, get it to xxxx degrees. I don't know the number offhand, someone will. Then use a high nickel arc welding rod, or tig, or whatever. Do a deep root pass, then cap it off with a nice wide weave. If it's pre-heated, and post heated, I don't think you have to worry about it pulling when it cools. As long as its uniformly heated up pretty good, it should be ok. I don't think the torque arm takes as much force as the... LCA mounts for example. Just an IMHO.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

If you do end up waiting for a better rear, I wouldn't go with a Moser. They use threaded TQ Arm holes which can cause the bolts to loosen without being checked constantly. I recall reading something else about a problem with them and using Spohn's TQ Arm, but I can't find the thread, so I dunno if I imagined it. Personally I'm gonna get a Strange Dana 60. Same price, more static weight over the rear tires, and unparalleled strength.

Batass

They are the same price, didnt know that about the weight. They also come with c-clip eliminators at no extra charge. 33 spline axles...

12 bolts are also 3% more efficient than ford 9's. At the hp I should be at, thats almost 20hp!!

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

The Dana 60 doesn't need C-Clip eliminators(I think), 35 spline axles, even pinion engagement, AND they're 2% more efficient than 12 bolts! So the slight rotational weight is negated by the better gear efficiency, and the rest of the weight is directly over your rear tires for much needed traction.

http://www.strangeengineering.net/ne...earendAD1.html

P.S. The Dana yoke is longer than any of the others, so you need a driveshaft 1.65" shorter I believe. You can order the Dana and driveshaft from Spohn, even though it's not on his website. The Strange Chrome Moly Seamless driveshaft can be paired with their stainless steel tranny yoke for even more strength, and the Chrome Moly is lighter because you can use less metal for the same strength.

Batass

Wow. They are the same price too. I didnt know spohn offered them, they are only 15 min from me. Sweet. Id like a locker instead of clutch stuff, but maybe spohn can work that out.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

Judging by summit prices, a true locking differential will up that price by 3-400 for a Strange Detroit Locker. Didn't ask Spohn about options, but if he can order it from Strange I'm sure he can get it. Might just take longer.

Glad to have helped! Or, as the case may be without the money, added more confusion!

Batass

By any chance does anyone know what an 8.5 weighs? And its percentage of power loss?

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

I believe that the 10 bolt weighs 170, and I believe that it's gear loss is the same, if not just slightly worse than the 12 bolt.

10 Bolt - 170
12 Bolt - 185
9" - 200
Dana 60 - 215

So you'd be gaining forty-forty-five pounds of weight, but most of it is static, sits over the rear tires, and is virtually bulletproof. And you're only gaining 20# over a 12 bolt, with a better gear loss ratio.

Batass

Hey, above it was posted that I could use a ladder bar setup. I'll drive the car on the street a lot, so I dont want a ladder setup, but a four link, would be awesome. Having trouble finding a simple one though.....without backhalving it.

Shagwell

....if only you had any idea of how many reason there are NOT to run that set-up.... It's far worse than a ladder bar set-up. Do a search on those or the lakewood traction actio bars, it'll turn up a lot.

Ladder bar's don't work on the street. They won't allow for rear body roll, thus they don't handle properly in corners or when going over bumps. If the rear twists differently than the car, then something is bending/flexing.
4-link set-ups for the street must have parrallel bars, or they will cause roll oversteer in corners. Parrallel bars don't hook as well as having the uppers running downhill.

The only bad thing about extra unsprung weight is ride quality. The heavier the unsprung weight, the more jarringly the car will react over bumps. The only gain of a 9" over other rears is the ability to change gearing just by swapping the center chunk. A 12 bolt takes less to turn, and a 60 takes even less than a 12 bolt. The strange S60 is lighter and stronger than a stock housing, but still heavier than the others.

Stephen's suggestion of a jy 9" is to buy the moser housing and axles for our cars, then drop in a jy center section to save you some $.

Batass

I didnt know that about the oversteer. Sounds like a 4-link will be too big a pita. Yea ladder bars are def a no go for the street.
The 9" housing is cheap, like 1000 bucks, I think all it needs is a center section (I have 0 experience with rears).
Im going to call a jy today and see what a 9" third member and an 8.5 would cost.
Someone in another topic (talking about 8.5 too) suggested bolting the tq arm around the housing the cover bolts. I guess the GNX did this?

Batass

Well I talked to a pro welder yesterday, and he said yea its a pita to weld near the races but he can do it probably around 200 bucks.
I havent heard of anyone finishing this project???!!!!!! I dont think its worth it if you have to narrow the rear, but so far I'm going for it.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

There are two people that I remember that are running an 8.5" rear.
One guy used two 1/2" bolts to clamp a large aluminum block to the rear as a torque arm mount, the other guy welded 1/8" steel plates to make the mount. See if you can find the thread for ideas.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

I got a reply for prices on the S60 from Spohn. Great technical support.

Batass

I couldn't find those articles. But I sat down and hard thought all the cost and work, and I think the I like the bolt in S60 better. I HATE wondering if something is going to hold up. The ford 9 is great, but if the S60 is 5% more efficient....thats 30-40 more hp getting to the wheels! With my estimated power. Should be able to get it dyno'd here within a month. Hopefully the stock driveshaft and rear dont explode on the dyno!!!

Spohn is great, plus I can drive there (20 min) so no shipping!

AlkyIROC

But that needs to move the 50 extra pounds of the Dana 60.

You're nowhere near the power levels where you need 35 or 40 spline axles. My car survives with 31 spline axles and an upgrade to 33 spline is all the extra I would need. 35 and 40 spline axles are heavy unless they're gun drilled then that makes them a lot more expensive.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, but the Strange S60 weighs only 10-15 more pounds than your 9", fully assembled, with brakes. Granted, I don't know what weight-savings you've done with your rear-end, but it's only twenty to twenty-five pounds heavier than Strange's own 12 bolt.

Batass

One big reason for me is its not Ford, lol. Kinda hard to beat a good mustang guy and him not notice the rear. I know it isnt chevy, but it aint ford. I just can't do it....
I know nascar uses them, but I'm sure part of the reason is uniformity...

You're right, I probably don't need the splines, and never will. I didn't even know what gun drilling is, but strange offers the upgrade for $80. I dont know if it would be worth it in my case though....

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

It'll lighten the axles by drilling out part of them, gun drilling is just the technique used to drill long small holes. The gun drills themselves inject coolant/cutting oil into the drill face so that you never need to back the drill out to oil the hole, and because they are used to drill the barrels for guns, it's fairly safe to assume the technique produces holes that are uniform and straight when drilled properly.

Will you (Batass) need it to save that little extra rotational mass? Probably not. If you were extremely concerned with rotational mass you'd have light composite wheels, carbon fiber driveshaft, light drag brakes (or at least lighter brakes), lightened clutch/flywheel (or flexplate/torque converter), and probably lightened engine internals. While I do agree, if were talking about the upper echelon of drag or road racing, that you'd need all of these lightening modifications. But for a street car, it's not that much of a difference.

I personally believe in the "permanent" purchase. If I buy the Dana, I know, that no matter what (barring accident or other major damage) I will never have to buy another rear end. Even if I fully tube the frame, gut & rollcage the interior, throw in a 672 twin turbo big block, and run a full fiberglass chassis, I can still use the Dana 60. :yes:

AlkyIROC

Car Craft article on Dana 60's

"Contrary to popular belief, at 250 pounds drum-to-drum (O.E. Mopar or aftermarket automotive version), a typical Dana 60 is only 50 pounds heavier than an average Ford 9-inch. "

With an aluminum spool, center section and pinion support, my 9" is extremely light.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

With the aluminum, I bet yours is a good chunk lighter than the regular, but according to www.tbyrnemotorsports.com (on the subject of a Strange Rear Group Purchase),

Batass

If the overall efficiency gets more power to the ground than is lost in weight, why does it matter, Steve? Later guys, I'm off to watch the Top Fuel cars at Maple Grove!!