wgripp

iTrader: (1)

I've done some research (online and in your forum) regarding swapping in a 5 or 6 speed (in place of my automatic) on my 91 GTA 350. I understand the T-5 isn't going to be my best choice for that motor, especially if I plan to add more horsepower/torque. So, what transmission is my best bet?

I've also read that guys who have done swaps have lost speed and off the line power with the automatic to stick swap. I'm a bit confused, as it's been my experience that manual transmissions own (considering that the torque converters rob power and the maunual offers you control over your gears and your engine's rpms).

Thanks again,
Bill

RB83L69

A 94-97 Camaro or Firebird T-56 is the best way to go for most people.

A manual car will almost always be faster, ultimately, than an auto car; simply because of the lower losses. A well set-up auto car can be faster than a less well-set-up car that happens to have a stick shift in it though.

An auto car will typically be more consistent and less sensitive to traction conditions than a stick; and will usually be kinder to drive train parts. So you can usually create a faster auto car with the same parts than you could with a stick, at any given level of reliability and longevity.

One of the things that greatly degrades stick performance is the driver; much more so than an auto. A poorly driven stick car can be very slow indeed; and may require a highly skilled driver to get the best performance out of. An auto can be set up to take the driver almost completely out of drive train operation: mat it, and let the trans take care of itself. That makes it easier to tune and also more consistent.

TKOPerformance

You've got to define what you want the car to do. If your goal is 1/4 mile then you are probably better off with an auto. If you like to drive the car on the street, do autocross, or a little bit of everything a stick is a better bet.

Then you've got to determine how much power you are planning to make. A T5 is not ever going to be as strong as a T56, but it will be cheaper and an easier bolt in. I can build T5s to live up to 400 lbs/ft, or for a bit more cash outlay 500 lbs/ft and 600 hp with G-Force parts. The T56 is good to 450 lbs/ft stock though. G-Force parts can take a T56 past 900 hp.

A T56 will typically require a steeper rear gear to really get the most out of the car. If you don't have 3.73s or 4.10s consider a swap if you want the T56, but even a T5 will benefit from 3,73s (of course an auto would too).

RB is dead right about everything he said concerning consistency and driver ability too. I can rip 14.5s very consistently in my WRX, which is stick, but it is also AWD. Running my Camaro or my old 5.0 the times varried a lot more with track conditions, temperature, etc.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

My primary goal is to turn my bird into an all around street/track machine. But, I would still like to run the quarter mile occasionally.

TKOPerformance

Street/autocross, with ocassional drag racing? The T56 would be ideal. The first four gears are nice and tight, great for autocross or drag racing. 5th and 6th give you great gas milage and freeway ability.

Depending on power level a T-5 could also fill the bill. A T5 with the Z-spec superalloy gears is good to about 400 lbs/ft. As long as you stay away from slicks or drag radials it should be fine. If sticky tires are in the mix I'd rule out the T5 unless you want to go with the G-Force kit. Then I'd say knock yourself out. There are guys running 10s with G-Force T5s, but the cost to play is closer to a T56 swap than a Z-spec T5. It's middle ground I'd say.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

Sounds good

What's this I hear about guys losing off the line power with the T56? I definately want the car to be faster, not slower.

Also, I dont have the tools or the talent to do the swap. Anyone know of any third gen modding specialists in or around NJ? How much is this gonna cost?

Bill

TKOPerformance

The 700R4 has a 3.06:1 1st gear, but the T56 has a 2.66:1. The overall 1st gear ratio with the same rear gears is less with the T56, which is why some people complain about losts off the line power. I swapped to 3.73s when I did the T56, and lost nothing.

I can do the swap. I live in Newark, DE. Where in Jersey are you?

Cost? Figure $2,500 for all the parts (everything stock except the few things you'll need to make it work like an x-member and SGI-5). If you want an aftermarket clutch, flywheel, or other bells and whistles the cost can go up significantly depending on what you choose. I would charge $800 for labor, and that's everything done 100% right no corners cut. This is a time consuming swap.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the offer TKO. How long would this swap take? I just bought the car, and I'm still waiting for insurance to clear so I can take the thing for inspection. Who knows if she'll pass.

I live in upstate NJ. I'm about half an hour west from Newark, NJ.

Regarding the gearing of the T-56, I figured that was why there were power losses. I've heard the same complaint in the Subaru WRX vs Mistsubishi Evo arguement. The Evo is faster to 60 by .2 seconds, even tho the WRX beats it by 300 hp. Although, I think that is more an issue of the extra shift rather than gearing.

Finally, $3,300 is a bit steep for a car I hope can pass inspection. Does anyone know the resale value of my current tranny? It only has 46,000 on it, practically brand new =)

-Bill

P.S. Is the t-56 re-gearable? I was thinking of giving her ratios close to those on the t-5, and making 6 a gas saver/top speed gear. Any thoughts?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The gear ratios are close enough to the T5, leave em alone, 6th is a gas saver, its 1/2 to 1.

2500 is also quite high on the estimate for parts.

Expect to pay about 800-1400 for a good used setup.
$400 or so for a good new clutch.

125 for the spohn X member
$100 for the SGI5
$40 ? for a used 5 speed shift plate.

So $1465 - 2065 is about reasonable.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

That price is a little easier to swallow =) Where should I look for parts?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Check the classifieds here and over at www.camaroz28.com

I may have a setup available, and if not right now, should have some available soon.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

no rush... I need to get the car registered, insured, passing inspection, valve seal leaks fixed , power antenna fixed, and I need to find someplace to keep it so the rain (rust) and UV rays from the sun (fading) dont destroy it

Bill

TKOPerformance

I figure that the swap is about a 12 hour project start to finish. The time depends on many factors, like how easily the old stuff comes apart, how much cleaning is required of the old and "new" T56 parts.

If you are 1/2 hour from Newark you are about 2-1/2 to 3 hours from me I think, depending on traffic.

You need to keep one thing in mind when shopping for the parts for the swap: Complete setup. I've seen a lot of incomplete setups around for sale at reduced prices. In the long run this is going to cost you more. You will need:

Parts from Donor Vehicle:

'94-'97 LT1 T56 trans from an F-body
LT1 T56 bellhousing
LT1 T56 clutch fork
LT1 T56 flywheel
LT1 T56 clutch disc
LT1 T56 pressure plate (includes throw out bearing)
bellhousing bolts
flywheel bolts
pressure plate bolts
'93-'97 F body torque arm mount
'93-'97 F body hydraulics (sealed unit)
'93-'97 F body pedals ('84-'92 pedals also an option)
pedal hardware
'84-'92 clutch master cylinder mounting bracket
'91 GTA shift plate with boot
shift **** (stock 6-speed or **** of your choosing)
'93-'97 VSS with wiring pigtail
'93-'97 back up light switch with pigtail
'93-'97 shifter (I highly recommend a Pro 5.0 instead)

Aftermarket Parts:

Crossmember (Spohn or SPD)
Dakota Digital SGI-5

Miscellaneous:

4-quarts ATF (I highly recommend Amsoil synthetic)
various wiring supplies (wire, solder, shrink tubing, etc.)

Any parts not included with a T56 setup are goign to cost you to hunt down. These cars are non existant in junkyards, so that means OEM GM, and the costs for missing hardware and small parts can really climb quickly.

Also, I would try to buy the trans from a place that will offer you a warranty. T56s are rather expensive to rebuild if the trans is damaged. This will typically cost you a little more, because you'll have to go through a dedicated salvage yard instead of a single person selling one setup. That's cheap insurance in my book.

I would budget $2,500 for the parts. If you can't afford to spend that then save up longer or look at another option. If you only budget $2,000 and then find out you missed something it would really suck to have the swap held up because of a lack of funding. This is the voice of experience speaking. If you budget with a little fluff in the number you can have a cushion. If the parts come inunder your budget then great, you've got some extra loot. If not, then at least you were prepared. This isn't an inexpensive swap, and you will never get the money back out of a 3rd gen if you go to sell it. This is a swap for someone who loves their car, and wants to make it more fun to drive.

A good used late model 700R4 should be worth a couple hundred bucks. I'd say $200-$350 depending on who's buying it. eBay is a wonderful thing. I got $75 for mine and it was burned up (and I was up front about that fact).

P.S.: The T56 is re-gearable, but the cost is staggering. The gearing as mentioned, is very close to a T5. Keep in mind that stick cars usually had higher rear gears from the factory for this exact reason. Often an auto was paired with a 3.23 or a 3.08 when a stick got the 3.42s. The T56 has such a great gear spread anyway that I wouldn't go messing with near perfection. The 0.50:1 6th gear has my car turning less than 2,000 RPM at 80 MPH with 3.73 rear gears. It can easily knock down 20+ MPG on the highway.

P.P.S: The Evo and the STi are completely different animals. The EVO is a cheap rocket that is very fast and very capable for the price. I don't expect it to have the longevity of the STi though running nearly 20psi boost stock. The STi by comparison is significantly more expensive, but is ultimately faster in the 1/4 mile (I've seen a bone stock on break the 12 second barrier), does not suffer from monumental turbo lag, and will undoubtedly last a lot longer than the EVO, since it only uses 14.5 psi to make those 300 ponies.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

TKO, thanks for the in-depth parts listing. Who do you reccommend I buy my parts from? Do you have a supplier?

Also, are there any other manual trannies ppl have swapped in besides the t-5 and t-56?

Thanks,
Bill

TKOPerformance

For simplicity I would contact Billy Grahams Camaro and Firebird Salvage. www.billygrahamscamaro.com Or do a search. There are several places that specialize in 4th gen salavage parts. These places are used to dealing with people doing these swaps, and can provide you with anything you need.

Other options for manual transmission swaps would be any of the Tremec line (3550, TKO, TKOII, TKO 500, & TKO 600). A Richmond 5 or 6 speed is another option, though a more complicated swap.

If you're looking to have some fun on a tighter budget a Z-Spec T5 may be your best choice in terms of a strength to cost ratio.

The Tremec trans is going to cost $1,500 at least (depending on the model, but they go up from $1,500). Then you have to buy all the related parts, which in truth I don't think will end up any cheaper than the T56 swap. If you were swapping from a T5 to something stronger the Tremec may be a good way to go, but for an auto to manual swap it probably isn't ideal in terms of cost.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

so t-56 > tremtec?

TKOPerformance

Well, the T56 is a 6-speed. The Tremecs are all 5-speeds. Strength wise the T56 is rated to 450 lbs/ft. You can get a Tremec rated up to 600 lbs/ft., but that is a rather pricey TKO 600. I would say that for a trans swap from auto to manual you would be better off with a T56. The T56 is nearly a bolt in swap using stock parts. The Tremec is going to require some additional work, and rounding up some additional parts. For your swap I would say that the T56 is a better choice than the Tremecs.